Hi,
the title is provocative but true.
If you wanna win a fortune to have to bet a fortune
If you wanna win a reasonable amount
you have to bet a reasonable amount
Now what is main stream of this?
I have detected a formula for all chances which will win in
long term.
this formula has no effect on ECs, but on Doz/col, double-streets and streets.
It is very complicated on splits and straight
numbers.
It needs a bankroll of more than 3000 units at the table and about 10000 units to be on the secure site.
We all know that
any betseletion will lead us to the probability that our selected chance will sleep that long that our flat bet or pogressions will not win longterm.
/>The solution would be to find a progression to win the latest possible appearance of our selected chance or to win so much in all other cases that a
bust wouldnÃ,´t do us any harm.
This means to take advantage of reapperances in short terms and recovering in late appearances.
/>
more later
br winkel
Very interesting and looking forward to hear more,
as man, regardless of experience,learns about roulette
something new every day.
Yes, sounds Like U Have an Audience Winkel.
Quote from: winkel on Feb 11, 04:40 PM 2011
Hi,
It needs a bankroll of more than 3000 units at the table and about 10000 units to be on the secure site.
We all know that any betseletion will lead us to the probability that our selected chance will sleep that long that our flat bet or pogressions will not win longterm.
The solution would be to find a progression to win the latest possible appearance of our selected chance or to win so much in all other cases that a bust wouldn´t do us any harm.
This means to take advantage of reapperances in short terms and recovering in late appearances.
more later
br winkel
good to hear you have a new brainchild :) i just hope that the stated progression needing 3000 units br has no bets that can exceed the 1-100 standart table limit spreads
First of all I donÃ,´t test strategies without refering to the table-limits.
Limits like some Ocs min ,5 max 20 are redicoulous. So I refer to real table-limits in B&M or in OCs like Betvoyager which are quite fair.
br
winkel
I'm interested if it works on dozens/columns.
Ron.
As Frasier would say,
"I'm listening" :)
Hi,
I was thinking about how I could explain, how it was developed, but it seems to be too confusing.
So I decided just to give the formula:
example with dobule streets:
you can win maximum payout of 5 (11 for streets, 2 for doz/col)
so stretch the progression by 5
Use Fibonacci
stretch to table limits
e.g.
bet:
5 times 1
5 times 1
5 times 2
5 times 3
5 times 5
...
5 times table limit or nearest high Fibonacci-level
win limit:
choose the one you like:
1 unit or higher
the best I found so far
Double-Streets : 89
streets: 233
I use for doublestreets a length of 65 bets up to 233 units total of 3045 units needed
example for DS 31-36
12 6 1 1 -1
28 6 2 1 -2
17 6 3 1 -3
6 6 4 1 -4
16 6 5 1 -5
29 6 6 1 -6
5 6 7 1 -7
4 6 8 1 -8
11 6 9 1 -9
7 6 10 1 -10
20 6 11 2 -12
10 6 12 2 -14
25 6 13 2 -16
25 6 14 2 -18
23 6 15 2 -20
9 6 16 3 -23
32 6 17 Tr.TVS 3 -8
34 6 18 Tr.TVS 3 7
7 6 19 3 4
26 6 20 3 1
18 6 21 5 -4
0 6 22 5 -9
34 6 23 Tr.TVS 5 16
28 6 24 5 11
24 6 25 5 6
3 6 26 8 -2
0 6 27 8 -10
2 6 28 8 -18
20 6 29 8 -26
29 6 30 8 -34
4 6 31 13 -47
7 6 32 13 -60
25 6 33 13 -73
11 6 34 13 -86
23 6 35 13 -99
33 6 36 Tr.TVS 21 6
15 6 37 21 -15
35 6 38 Tr.TVS 21 90
If you start playing any DS so will find a losing streak once a day
to prevent of losing all wins and more select like this:
play the first 65 spins virtually and find out which one had lost
- most units
- highest turnover
- most less winback during play
- most less hits at all
- latest hit at all
one or more of this rules will do
start real money play at spin 66 or nearby
statistics next post
spins of Wiesbaden 31 days of january
1. table: results of all 6 DS (TvS) in first 65 spins:
Tag TvS 1 TvS 2 TvS 3 TvS 4 TvS 5 TvS 6
1 -2379 123 135 300 96 766
2 124 -1545 248 270 108 114
3 156 140 100 96 100 141
4 256 114 350 888 120 238
5 228 90 -1419 112 126 114
6 -2343 90 331 437 119 149
7 367 -2403 186 150 159 178
8 304 182 102 118 253 110
9 129 178 102 174 226 144
10 159 318 103 107 171 193
11 98 98 442 -1359 164 106
12 142 168 110 136 105 143
13 477 114 117 -1653 176 91
14 127 159 177 304 162 170
15 301 592 134 -2037 98 130
16 110 247 150 90 -2871 93
17 164 145 256 119 90 330
18 114 1070 105 106 170 148
19 122 169 90 123 103 178
20 220 104 -1617 96 150 90
21 112 110 757 -939 94 98
22 150 108 -1485 102 108 -1689
23 133 129 394 120 162 343
24 250 138 156 -2409 92 153
25 128 98 108 127 104 146
26 171 126 -1065 93 127 418
27 183 111 140 114 126 -39
28 109 103 132 125 450 110
29 148 111 138 165 182 272
30 166 296 106 138 176 -2157
31 104 121 129 94 -969 508
read:
day 1 we select DS 1
day 2 we select DS2
next table: results of spins 66-130
TvS 1 TvS 2 TvS 3 TvS 4 TvS 5 TvS 6
104 -3109 166 117 96 501
216 110 112 192 161 341
299 648 135 -3469 105 117
-2959 165 -601 108 132 162
120 96 95 -2701 114 93
250 212 100 285 517 108
119 246 171 -1357 124 244
588 -1693 228 94 109 370
160 130 109 102 144 159
258 96 138 122 114 147
250 310 135 190 176 98
-2863 114 1118 534 195 138
-703 137 236 171 126 120
120 195 90 94 -1153 918
883 778 369 168 155 116
138 185 -1879 92 130 118
90 93 96 376 124 119
150 242 94 396 195 90
496 190 254 120 102 122
-1201 183 582 146 90 102
108 157 321 98 114 96
230 331 422 121 617 212
192 283 220 120 106 95
1474 137 -2323 94 236 97
172 92 164 100 178 110
-2785 120 99 92 -1219 90
94 96 115 162 328 93
120 361 238 309 122 165
94 -1357 201 111 -1051 307
168 882 90 208 90 285
286 -1645 238 219 168 90
day 1 DS1: +104
day2 DS2: +110
second way to bet:
let your computer run todays first 65 spins to select and bet next day the first 65 spins at once with real money.
read table 1: Day 1 selects DS 1
read results of day 2
this is the table of those results:
Tag TvS 1 TvS 2 TvS 3 TvS 4 TvS 5 TvS 6
1
2 124 0 0 0 0 0
3 0 140 0 0 0 0
4 0 0 0 0 0 0
5 0 0 0 0 0 0
6 0 0 331 0 0 0
7 367 0 0 0 0 0
8 0 182 0 0 0 0
9 0 0 0 0 0 0
10 0 0 0 0 0 0
11 0 0 0 0 0 0
12 0 0 0 136 0 0
13 0 0 0 0 0 0
14 0 0 0 304 0 0
15 0 0 0 0 0 0
16 0 0 0 90 0 0
17 0 0 0 0 90 0
18 0 0 0 0 0 0
19 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 0 0 0 0 0 0
21 0 0 757 0 0 0
22 0 0 0 102 0 0
23 0 0 394 0 0 343
24 0 0 0 0 0 0
25 0 0 0 127 0 0
26 0 0 0 0 0 0
27 0 0 140 0 0 0
28 0 0 0 0 0 110
29 0 0 0 0 0 0
30 0 0 0 0 0 0
31 0 0 0 0 0 508
no losses total of 4245 units
extracted table for bets at spin 66-130
TvS 1 TvS 2 TvS 3 TvS 4 TvS 5 TvS 6
104 0 0 0 0 0
0 110 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 95 0 0 0
250 0 0 0 0 0
0 246 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 190 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 171 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 168 0 0
0 0 0 0 130 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 582 0 0 0
0 0 0 98 0 0
0 0 422 0 0 212
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 94 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 99 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 93
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 285
0 0 0 0 168 0
no losses total of 3517
both ways played total of 7762 units
I donÃ,´t recomend this for doz/col anymore it is too expansive
here some results of the same strategy played on streets:
win limit 233
highest prog 11 times 89 units needed 2552
results january Wiesbaden played both ways:
day selected selected
yesterdays todays prev. total
1 0 339 339
2 339 316 994
3 261 332 1587
4 312 -1460 439
5 236 273 948
6 264 300 1512
7 298 -1220 590
8 346 430 1366
9 -1832 444 -22
10 384 -1412 -1050
11 267 459 -324
12 243 558 477
13 404 296 1177
14 -1064 413 526
15 530 246 1302
16 806 320 2428
17 258 493 3179
18 427 330 3936
19 264 518 4718
20 -800 242 4160
21 418 343 4921
22 369 441 5731
23 272 -764 5239
24 -1016 554 4777
25 326 1032 6135
26 334 401 6870
27 -1808 -1640 3422
28 472 441 4335
29 573 -1328 3580
30 297 1084 4961
31 -164 256 5053
pls note possible draw downs
total results 5053 units
february so far 2924 units
Just a question that confuses me.
1x5 ...ect. to
233x5=3045 chips....are we betting this in continuation,regardles of occasional wins.
Quote from: F_LAT_INO on Feb 16, 03:58 PM 2011
Just a question that confuses me.
1x5 ...ect. to
233x5=3045 chips....are we betting this in continuation,regardles of occasional wins.
As I said in another post:
we actually donÃ,´t play the chance (selected DS, street or doz) we play the progression until we reached our target
Got it...and target could bex-xx-xxx..any I pressume.
Quote from: F_LAT_INO on Feb 16, 06:14 PM 2011
Got it...and target could bex-xx-xxx..any I pressume.
to the effect of selecting a special target I will give informations later
br
winkel
Thanks mr.Winkel
Do we reset to first stage of progression after a new high of bankroll?
i would hate to be a damper mate but most people dont have that much money.
if i played $1 chips then i need 13,000 dollars, thats not going to work for me.
i work of 100 dollars, i dont get why you would use that progression 5 times of each step.
in my opinion it wouldnt matter how many steps it uses, if it dosent work in the original steps then i dont really see it working even if you have mod it.
i could be wrong but what if it losses after that final step and it can and will happen.
thats alot of money gone. and dozens wont win long term unless you know what will hit before it lands.
Quote from: darrynf on Feb 17, 02:30 AM 2011
I would hate to be a damper mate but most people don't have that much money.
if I played $1 chips then I need 13,000 dollars, that's not going to work for me.
You donÃ,´t have to win if you canÃ,´t afford it.
Quote from: Bazeegar on Feb 16, 11:01 PM 2011
Do we reset to first stage of progression after a new high of bankroll?
When you reached your target you stop playing.
Full restart next game
br
winkel
As it seems that results posted make a big attention:
results of my DS-Strategy for Feb with a total of 8546 units one loss of-825
DS1 DS2 DS3 DS4 DS5 DS6
Jan 01 124 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 02 0 140 0 0 0 0
Jan 03 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 04 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 05 0 0 331 0 0 0
Jan 06 367 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 07 0 182 0 0 0 0
Jan 08 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 09 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 10 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 11 0 0 0 136 0 0
Jan 12 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 13 0 0 0 304 0 0
Jan 14 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 15 0 0 0 90 0 0
Jan 16 0 0 0 0 90 0
Jan 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 18 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 19 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 20 0 0 757 0 0 0
Jan 21 0 0 0 102 0 0
Jan 22 0 0 394 0 0 343
Jan 23 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 24 0 0 0 127 0 0
Jan 25 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 26 0 0 140 0 0 0
Jan 27 0 0 0 0 0 110
Jan 28 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 29 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jan 30 0 0 0 0 0 508
Jan 31 0 0 0 0 114 0
Feb 01 0 206 0 0 0 0
Feb 02 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 03 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 04 0 0 0 616 0 0
Feb 05 0 198 0 0 0 186
Feb 06 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 07 0 0 166 0 0 0
Feb 08 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 09 249 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 10 0 0 0 0 114 0
Feb 11 0 0 0 135 0 0
Feb 12 1149 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 13 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 14 0 0 0 214 0 0
Feb 15 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 16 0 0 0 102 0 0
Feb 17 96 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 18 0 0 0 142 0 0
Feb 19 0 0 -825 0 0 0
Feb 20 122 0 91 0 0 0
Feb 21 0 120 0 0 0 357
Feb 22 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 23 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 24 0 0 0 0 0 616
Feb 25 0 133 0 0 0 0
Feb 26 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 27 0 0 0 0 0 0
Feb 28 0 0 0 0 0 0
same Idea on streets:
Wiesbaden
Jan 5053
Feb 2547
Mar 3611 so far
CasinoClub
Jan 6247
Feb 944
Mar -1093 so far
this seems not be very exciting to the public ;D
obviously it is more exciting and worth reading posts where is no roulette-work is done, just senseless psotings.
So I wonÃ,´t disturb you anymore with workig strategies
Mr Winkel....
I am very interested to know what your views are on double dozen progressions. Earlier in this thread you stated this could work on dozens, but then said it was to expensive. Can you please share with me your ideas that you had? Thanks
Hi Big EZ
this is only for betting 1 chip at start and not betting several bets.
Hi sekuritati,
I didnÃ,´t test it playing all DS at the same time, it wouldnÃ,´t be playable.
br
winkel
Hello Winkel,
would you please clarify on the tracking for the method? We track 65 spins and count which DS has been underpresented correct? What do you mean by "we track which DS lost in the first 65 spins"? Does that mean that we play virtually the method on all of the DSs and wait until one DS busts our bankroll?
thank you
Mr. Winkel,
I've been running this through trials on streets using a stop/loss of 100 units either way and stopping at 100 spins. The results have been nothing less than incredible.
I've played this before over the years many ways, but nothing quite like this. Thank you so much. Sometimes the last pin that drops is the one that can be found in the haystack.
Gator
hi wally,
there is no stopploss only a stoppwin.
I think you didnÂÃ,´t understand the game.
br
winkel
Got it. Thanks, Winkel. I was having such good results using the 100 units as a stop/loss I needed to re-read your post.
Why are your posts not showing up? It appears there is a problem with many of your posts.
Did you have an average number of spins for the streets on hitting the stop/win of 233?
Thanks again,
Wally
I didnt see the first post in tread.
Can someone maiby explain?
Cheers
Jon
1st post by winkel: (thanks google)
"Hi,
the title is provocative but true.
If you wanna win a fortune to have to bet a fortune
If you wanna win a reasonable amount you have to bet a reasonable amount
Now what is main stream of this?
I have detected a formula for all chances which will win in long term.
this formula has no effect on ECs, but on Doz/col, double-streets and streets.
It is very complicated on splits and straight numbers.
It needs a bankroll of more than 3000 units at the table and about 10000 units to be on the secure site.
We all know that any betseletion will lead us to the probability that our selected chance will sleep that long that our flat bet or pogressions will not win longterm.
The solution would be to find a progression to win the latest possible appearance of our selected chance or to win so much in all other cases that a bust wouldnÂÃ,´t do us any harm.
This means to take advantage of reapperances in short terms and recovering in late appearances.
more later
br winkel
"
5th post also missing:
"First of all I donÂÃ,´t test strategies without refering to the table-limits.
Limits like some Online Casinos min ,5 max 20 are redicoulous. So I refer to real table-limits in B&M or in Online Casinos like Betvoyager which are quite fair.
br
winkel"
Quote from: intermax on Apr 17, 04:08 AM 2011
1st post by winkel: (thanks google)
"Hi,
the title is provocative but true.
If you wanna win a fortune to have to bet a fortune
If you wanna win a reasonable amount you have to bet a reasonable amount
Now what is main stream of this?
I have detected a formula for all chances which will win in long term.
this formula has no effect on ECs, but on Doz/col, double-streets and streets.
It is very complicated on splits and straight numbers.
It needs a bankroll of more than 3000 units at the table and about 10000 units to be on the secure site.
We all know that any betseletion will lead us to the probability that our selected chance will sleep that long that our flat bet or pogressions will not win longterm.
The solution would be to find a progression to win the latest possible appearance of our selected chance or to win so much in all other cases that a bust wouldnÂÃ,´t do us any harm.
This means to take advantage of reapperances in short terms and recovering in late appearances.
more later
br winkel
"
5th post also missing:
"First of all I donÂÃ,´t test strategies without refering to the table-limits.
Limits like some Online Casinos min ,5 max 20 are redicoulous. So I refer to real table-limits in B&M or in Online Casinos like Betvoyager which are quite fair.
br
winkel"
Thanks.
But where can i find the rules since it was not here?
Thanks for the help :)
Cheers
Jon
Hi,
it is quite easy:
Double-Streets: you bet 1 - payout is 6 - result 5
so use Fibonacci-Progression prolonged by 5:
so bet 5 times 1 unit
bet 5 times 1 unit
bet 5 times 2
5 times 3
5 times 5
5 times 8
... etc.
e.g. Streets - net payout 11
11 times 1
11 times 1
11 times 2
11 times 3
etc.
win as much as you want (as is reasonable).
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 17, 05:37 AM 2011
Hi,
it is quite easy:
Double-Streets: you bet 1 - payout is 6 - result 5
so use Fibonacci-Progression prolonged by 5:
so bet 5 times 1 unit
bet 5 times 1 unit
bet 5 times 2
5 times 3
5 times 5
5 times 8
... etc.
e.g. Streets - net payout 11
11 times 1
11 times 1
11 times 2
11 times 3
etc.
win as much as you want (as is reasonable).
br
winkel
Thanks :)
Do you still play it ?
Jon
Of course!
only this month I won 15000 units
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 17, 07:20 AM 2011
Of course!
only this month I won 15000 units
br
winkel
Thats realy nice to hear :)
Can you explain the full rules about the progression and bet?
I am a newbie and bad english :D
Cheers
Jon
Just bet the progression.
Stop when you reached your target or table-limit
There are no rules.
br
winkel
How are you selecting the street or double street to play?
Use any you like.
You got the chance of 1 out of 6 to bet on a losing one (for DoubleStreets)
If you wanna select for psychological reasons: Bet on farthest back after any sum of spins you like to watch.
br
winkel
I dont understand how this can win?
It must be more than only what you said.
What to do if i have bet 5 times 1 unit and start next to bet 5 times and not win and move on to next level and when i win first i am still in - balance?
Cheers
Jon
Spin perm DS 2 prog res bankroll
1 34 2 1 -1
2 29 2 1 -2
3 13 2 1 -3
4 7 2 1 win 2 did you win enough?
5 14 2 1 1
6 13 2 1 0
7 1 2 1 -1
8 29 2 1 -2
9 10 2 1 win 3 did you win enough?
10 21 2 1 2
11 16 2 2 0
12 3 2 2 -2
13 28 2 2 -4
14 28 2 2 -6
15 26 2 2 -8
16 13 2 3 -11
17 29 2 3 -14
18 21 2 3 -17
19 6 2 3 -20
20 11 2 3 win -5
21 2 2 3 -8
22 10 2 3 win 7 did you win enough?
23 6 2 3 4
24 3 2 3 1
25 23 2 3 -2
26 8 2 3 win 13 did you win enough?
27 4 2 5 8
28 7 2 5 win 33 did you win enough?
29 16 2 5 28
30 0 2 5 23
31 15 2 5 18
32 3 2 8 10
33 31 2 8 2
34 23 2 8 -6
35 36 2 8 -14
36 29 2 8 -22
37 0 2 13 -35
38 12 2 13 win 30 did you win enough?
39 20 2 13 17
40 18 2 13 4
41 8 2 13 win 69 did you win enough?
42 25 2 21 48
43 8 2 21 win 153 did you win enough?
Hello Winkel.
I did a 10.000 real Dublinbet spins test on DS like this:
After the first 65 spins I checked which DS showed the greater loss, and in the next 65 I played that one.
If all 6 DSs showed profit in the previous 65 spins I did not bet in any of them for the next 65 spins etc
It ended +825 units.
My Best Regards
Quote from: winkel on Apr 17, 02:04 PM 2011
Spin perm DS 2 prog res bankroll
1 34 2 1 -1
2 29 2 1 -2
3 13 2 1 -3
4 7 2 1 win 2 did you win enough?
5 14 2 1 1
6 13 2 1 0
7 1 2 1 -1
8 29 2 1 -2
9 10 2 1 win 3 did you win enough?
10 21 2 1 2
11 16 2 2 0
12 3 2 2 -2
13 28 2 2 -4
14 28 2 2 -6
15 26 2 2 -8
16 13 2 3 -11
17 29 2 3 -14
18 21 2 3 -17
19 6 2 3 -20
20 11 2 3 win -5
21 2 2 3 -8
22 10 2 3 win 7 did you win enough?
23 6 2 3 4
24 3 2 3 1
25 23 2 3 -2
26 8 2 3 win 13 did you win enough?
27 4 2 5 8
28 7 2 5 win 33 did you win enough?
29 16 2 5 28
30 0 2 5 23
31 15 2 5 18
32 3 2 8 10
33 31 2 8 2
34 23 2 8 -6
35 36 2 8 -14
36 29 2 8 -22
37 0 2 13 -35
38 12 2 13 win 30 did you win enough?
39 20 2 13 17
40 18 2 13 4
41 8 2 13 win 69 did you win enough?
42 25 2 21 48
43 8 2 21 win 153 did you win enough?
Thanks :)
So we bet the same DS all the time until + balance ?
Jon
We donÂÃ,´t bet a DS we play the progression!
win-target:
net-payout 5
stretched length 5
win-target 5*5=25
streets:
net-payout 11
strethed 11
win-target 11*11=121
Quote from: winkel on Apr 17, 02:28 PM 2011
We donÂÃ,´t bet a DS we play the progression!
win-target:
net-payout 5
stretched length 5
win-target 5*5=25
streets:
net-payout 11
strethed 11
win-target 11*11=121
What do you mean ?
Jon
Also another scenario...
If in my previous test, in the cases when none of the DSs showed loss, instead of waiting another 65 spins I chose and played the DS with the least profit then the result would be:
+1703 units, with highest point +5158 units and lowest -6162 units.
My Best Regards
Can someone explain how to apply this since it more that can play this?
Cheers
Jon
Quote from: mogwai on Apr 17, 02:40 PM 2011
Also another scenario...
If in my previous test, in the cases when none of the DSs showed loss, instead of waiting another 65 spins I chose and played the DS with the least profit then the result would be:
...
My Best Regards
A better way would be to choose the DS with the farthest back hit or the least hits.
br
winkel
Quote from: jon86 on Apr 17, 02:44 PM 2011
Can someone explain how to apply this since it more that can play this?
Cheers
Jon
I donÂÃ,´t understand your question
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 17, 03:09 PM 2011
I donÂÃ,´t understand your question
br
winkel
Sorry.
I just dont understand this :)?
Cheers
Jon
Quote from: jon86 on Apr 17, 03:30 PM 2011
Sorry.
I just don't understand this :)?
Cheers
Jon
It canÂÃ,´t be easier:
select any DS
use the progression as explained.
play as long as you want or to wintarget or to table-limit
WhereÂÃ,´s the problem?
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 17, 03:52 PM 2011
It canÂÃ,´t be easier:
select any DS
use the progression as explained.
play as long as you want or to wintarget or to table-limit
WhereÂÃ,´s the problem?
br
winkel
Thanks.
Now i understand :)
Cheers
Jon
Quote from: winkel on Apr 17, 03:52 PM 2011
It canÂÃ,´t be easier:
select any DS
use the progression as explained.
play as long as you want or to wintarget or to table-limit
WhereÂÃ,´s the problem?
br
winkel
------------
@winkel, thanks for sharing this. One needs nerves of steel to play on this one :sad2: , but the profits are very worthy.
Have you ever ended your progression and been on the negative?!, meaning losing 2-3 games in a row
Also, when chosing your DS do you chose a cold or hot DS?
I just choose the last DS from 1st dozen on the marquee and after each game/section/progression ended, work the table down by dozens, choosing the last DS for that doz i see on the marquee. I'm not too sure if it makes any difference which one you choose......
vundarosa
As I said in the beginning: You need a big bankroll to keep cool waiting for the 2 or 3 needed hits in one prog-step.
The selection of DS has no rules. Mainly only one loses by playing virtually all 6.
I played the same DS throughout this month never losing.
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 18, 02:30 AM 2011
As I said in the beginning: You need a big bankroll to keep cool waiting for the 2 or 3 needed hits in one prog-step.
The selection of DS has no rules. Mainly only one loses by playing virtually all 6.
I played the same DS throughout this month never losing.
br
winkel
--------------------------
"I played the same DS throughout this month
never losing."
ahhhh, that's music to my ears :thumbsup:
vundarosa
Hi winkel,
what is your win average target per session ?
Quote from: aleks06 on Apr 18, 05:39 AM 2011
Hi winkel,
what is your win average target per session ?
see above
thereÂÃ,´s a calculation of targets
ughh, :sad2:
just had this tough section where the DS i chose, 4 numbers got really cold.
I won at 1u/bet once, at 2u/bet two times and nothing till i was betting 89 units...no, one more at 34u/bet. When i got to 89u/bet lost some and won once got to next level once due, bet at 144u lost some and won once and decided to stop betting that DS. Had i continued with the progression and same DS, I would have gone down nearly 2000u since no hit at 233u/bet.
I switched DS to one with hot numbers, came to a lower step of the progression and got 20u profit and exited the section....
So, i guess it does matter somehow how one choses the DS to play. I saw it had 3 cold numbers before i decided to go for it, hopping it would get at least 2 numbers back to normal hit rate, but it got worst....75 spins total and managed to get me back up +20u.
vundarosa
Keep emotions out of game.
I sometimes bet up to 610 units per bet. ItÂÃ,´s worth it.
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 19, 09:38 AM 2011
Keep emotions out of game.
I sometimes bet up to 610 units per bet. ItÂÃ,´s worth it.
br
winkel
610 units pr bet! I would need a steel heart :yawn:
Cheers
Jon
Quote from: winkel on Apr 19, 09:38 AM 2011
Keep emotions out of game.
I sometimes bet up to 610 units per bet. ItÂÃ,´s worth it.
br
winkel
---------------------------
610u per bet :o :o :o ...........i'm not yet there.........in terms of having the b@lls for it :-\
vundarosa
I started with a Bankroll of 5000 and am up now to 23500.
excercise playing virtual or free-game.
watch how results are moving with every loss or win in beween and you will see that loss is not that big till the needed double-hit in one section is appearing.
br
winkel
What's the table limit that your playing on mr.winkle?
Quote from: warrior on Apr 19, 10:42 AM 2011
What's the table limit that your playing on mr.winkle?
min 1 max 3000 no zero
min 1 max 15000 zero-table
Quote from: winkel on Apr 19, 11:44 AM 2011
min 1 max 3000 no zero
min 1 max 15000 zero-table
You play on RNG to Winkel?
Jon
Hi Winkel, thanks for sharing.
Starting with a 5000 unit bank. Choose DS 3
wingoal 55 units
* = highest bet
Session 1 : +66, 36 spins (-65) *21
Session 2 : +237, 54 spins (-564) *89
Session 3 : +72, 36 spins (-33) *21
Session 4 : +64, 29 spins (-40) *8
Session 5 : +58, 34 spins (-86) *13
Session 6 : +160, 45 spins (-183) *34
Session 7 : +91, 52 spins (-430) *89
Session 8 : +64, 23 spins (-7) *5
Session 9 : +60, 32 spins (-56) *13
Session 10 : +352, 56 spins (-635) *144
Session 11 : +46, 56 spins (-674) *144
Session 12 : +90, 32 spins (-2) *13
Session 13 : +85, 31 spins (-20) *13
Session 14 : +58, 19 spins (0) *3
Session 15 : +120, 49 spins (-430) *55
Session 16 : +86, 44 spins (-186) *34
Session 17 : +129, 39 spins (-65) *21
Session 18 : +340, 58 spins (-1100) *144
Session 19 : +50, 44 spins (-120) *34
Session 20 : +180, 68 spins (-1705) *377
Total = +2408 units
Quote from: winkel on Apr 19, 11:44 AM 2011
min 1 max 3000 no zero
min 1 max 15000 zero-table
Would be nice to know where as this I find very challenging.
Choose DS 5
wingoal 55 units
* = highest bet
Session 21 : +115, 31 spins (-8) *13
Session 22 : +86, 41 spins (-126) *34
Session 23 : +347, 61 spins (-1394) *233
Session 24 : +91, 31 spins (-32) *13
Session 25 : +72, 36 spins (-98) *21
Session 26 : +37, 63 spins (-1128) *233
Session 27 : +76, 45 spins (-230) *34
Session 28 : +96, 32 spins (-2) *13
Session 29 : +71, 33 spins (-59) *13
Session 30 : +68, 41 spins (-102) *34
Session 31 : +59, 24 spins (-8) *5
Session 32 : +64, 34 spins (-66) *13
Session 33 : +116, 44 spins (-190) *34
Session 34 : +84, 32 spins (-8) *13
Session 35 : +174, 43 spins (-166) *34
Session 36 : +197, 61 spins (-968) *233
Session 37 : +378, 51 spins (-342) *89
Session 38 : +72, 36 spins (-98) *21
Session 39 : +64, 56 spins (-656) *144
Session 40 : +53, 33 spins (-58) *13
Total = +2320
Total 40 sessions = +4728 units
Choose DS 2
wingoal 55 units
* = highest bet
Session 41 : +63, 22 spins (-2) *5
Session 42 : +180, 55 spins (-540) *89
Session 43 : +142, 56 spins (-578) *144
Session 44 : +34, 58 spins (-686) *144
Session 45 : +138, 36 spins (-19) *21
Session 46 : +84, 32 spins (-46) *13
Session 47 : +105, 46 spins (-170) *55
Session 48 : +64, 42 spins (-114) *34
Session 49 : +89, 50 spins (-204) *55
Session 50 : +86, 27 spins (-10) *8
Session 51 : +60, 40 spins (-45) *21
Session 52 : +58, 26 spins (-1) *8
Session 53 : +56, 30 spins (-25) *8
Session 54 : +65, 24 spins (-8) *5
Session 55 : +138, 36 spins (-84) *21
Session 56 : +95, 33 spins (-35) *13
Session 57 : +105, 46 spins (-170) *55
Session 58 : +309, 46 spins (-136) *55
Session 59 : +349, 63 spins (-1070) *233
Session 60 : +875, 67 spins (-1586) *377
Total = +3095
Total 60 sessions = +7823 units
So far so good :smile:
Quote from: F_LAT_INO on Apr 19, 01:40 PM 2011
Would be nice to know where as this I find very challenging.
it is Betvoyager
Quote from: Fripper on Apr 19, 03:05 PM 2011
Choose DS 2
wingoal 55 units
* = highest bet
Session 41 : +63, 22 spins (-2) *5
Session 42 : +180, 55 spins (-540) *89
Session 43 : +142, 56 spins (-578) *144
Session 44 : +34, 58 spins (-686) *144
Session 45 : +138, 36 spins (-19) *21
Session 46 : +84, 32 spins (-46) *13
Session 47 : +105, 46 spins (-170) *55
Session 48 : +64, 42 spins (-114) *34
Session 49 : +89, 50 spins (-204) *55
Session 50 : +86, 27 spins (-10) *8
Session 51 : +60, 40 spins (-45) *21
Session 52 : +58, 26 spins (-1) *8
Session 53 : +56, 30 spins (-25) *8
Session 54 : +65, 24 spins (-8) *5
Session 55 : +138, 36 spins (-84) *21
Session 56 : +95, 33 spins (-35) *13
Session 57 : +105, 46 spins (-170) *55
Session 58 : +309, 46 spins (-136) *55
Session 59 : +349, 63 spins (-1070) *233
Session 60 : +875, 67 spins (-1586) *377
Total = +3095
Total 60 sessions = +7823 units
So far so good :smile:
As you can see on these tests: the higher the risk the higher the win. No other progression delievers this
br
winkel
Choose DS 1
wingoal around 50 units
* = highest bet
() = lowest point
5000 units BR
Session 61 : +60, 38 spins (4955) *21
Session 62 : +61, 31 spins (4954) *13
Session 63 : +309, 46 spins (4864) *55
Session 64 : +47, 24 spins (4996) *5
Session 65 : +187, 37 spins (4964) *21
Session 66 : +229, 48 spins (4679) *55
Session 67 : +54, 27 spins (4980) *5
Session 68 : +59, 30 spins (4979) *8
Session 69 : +48, 28 spins (5000) *8
Session 70 : +73, 31 spins (4952) *13
Session 71 : +96, 38 spins (4968) *21
Session 72 : +148, 59 spins (4415) *144
Session 73 : +66, 28 spins (4979) *8
Session 74 : +90, 40 spins (4901) *21
Session 75 : +53, 50 spins (4558) *55
Session 76 : +46, 17 spins (4996) *3
Session 77 : +54, 28 spins (4995) *8
Session 78 : +67, 31 spins (4969) *13
Session 79 : +58, 26 spins (4999) *8
Session 80 : +40, 15 spins (4995) *2
Total = +1743
Total 80 sessions = +9566 units
Do you go up a step in the progression after each decision (win or lose) until you reach your target?
each step of Fibo 5 times despite of win or lose up to target is reached.
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 19, 04:49 PM 2011
As you can see on these tests: the higher the risk the higher the win. No other progression delievers this
br
winkel
Yes I have noticed that. The thing is to keep a balance with the bets, so you keep satisfied with the bets and your winnings.
Quote from: winkel on Apr 19, 10:29 AM 2011
I started with a Bankroll of 5000 and am up now to 23500.
excercise playing virtual or free-game.
watch how results are moving with every loss or win in beween and you will see that loss is not that big till the needed double-hit in one section is appearing.
br
winkel
--------------------
ok then,
3045 5000 it is!
vundarosa
Quote from: dennisbelle on Apr 19, 05:38 PM 2011
Do you go up a step in the progression after each decision (win or lose) until you reach your target?
-----------
yep, that's pretty much what is to be done.
vundarosa
Quote from: Fripper on Apr 20, 01:17 AM 2011
Yes I have noticed that. The thing is to keep a balance with the bets, so you keep satisfied with the bets and your winnings.
Just write down last balance: 5699 add target 50 so you have to go to 5749
A question about the progression. Is this right?
We bet each stage of the fib 5 times even if we win 1 or more in that sequence of five.
We go up one stage and do the same untill we reach our target.
Robert
that's correct trebor, you play until you reach your win target.
Choose DS 6
wingoal 55 units
* = highest bet
Session 81 : +63, 35 spins (-54) *13
Session 82 : +78, 38 spins (-37) *21
Session 83 : +72, 28 spins (-20) *8
Session 84 : +58, 29 spins (-26) *8
Session 85 : +1181, 67 spins (-1492) *377
Session 86 : +56, 27 spins (-39) *8
Session 87 : +58, 26 spins (-1) *8
Session 88 : +90, 32 spins (-18) *13
Session 89 : +63, 22 spins (0) *5
Session 90 : +114, 40 spins (-85) *21
Session 91 : +110, 41 spins (-102) *34
Session 92 : +64, 23 spins (-14) *5
Session 93 : +51, 46 spins (-224) *55
Session 94 : +57, 39 spins (-50) *21
Session 95 : +68, 21 spins (-3) *5
Session 96 : +62, 27 spins (-35) *8
Session 97 : +106, 45 spins (-237) *34
Session 98 : +201, 54 spins (-252) *89
Session 99 : +707, 61 spins (-746) *233
Session 100 : +105, 39 spins (-105) *21
Total = +3364
Total = +12930
@ Mr Winkel
Can you be so kind to explain why this method should work in the long run?
Do you have a mathematical solution why it does work?
The reason I ask is because I think that this is a very nice method.
Maybe you have explained earlier in one of your posts, but some of them are gone.
Cheers
Why some posts disappeared????
Quote from: F_LAT_INO on Apr 20, 09:10 AM 2011
Why some posts disappeared????
Please some body post the method of playing in detail because the first is missing :(
shakeel :-\
i would also like to know how to play this method as pages are missing
Quote from: F_LAT_INO on Apr 20, 09:10 AM 2011
Why some posts disappeared????
I think it is because of the forums server move or something..
Quote from: shakeel on Apr 20, 09:31 AM 2011
Please some body post the method of playing in detail because the first is missing :(
shakeel :-\
Quote from: joiner29 on Apr 20, 09:36 AM 2011
I would also like to know how to play this method as pages are missing
Hey guys, look reply 33 and 35. Also read through the thread.
can this be played RNG or just live
"Session 85 : +1181, 67 spins (-1492) *377"
Fripper,
If your win goal is 55 units how did you end up with 1181 units in session 85?
Quote from: dennisbelle on Apr 20, 11:21 AM 2011
"Session 85 : +1181, 67 spins (-1492) *377"
Fripper,
If your win goal is 55 units how did you end up with 1181 units in session 85?
If I'm down -1492 units and win, but not in profit yet, then I continue with the progression. In this case I think I was not in profit (down a couple of hundred units) and did bet 377 units and won, therefore I got a high win in the end.
As winkel said : "The more you risk, the more you win"
In every session I stop if I am up more than 55 units or close to it. For example, if I'm betting 89 units or more and get a some wins and I'm up like 40 or 50 units, then I stop there. Winkel may do differently tho, but I like it tht way.
Hope that answered your question.
Quote from: Fripper on Apr 20, 09:03 AM 2011
@ Mr Winkel
Can you be so kind to explain why this method should work in the long run?
Do you have a mathematical solution why it does work?
The reason I ask is because I think that this is a very nice method.
Maybe you have explained earlier in one of your posts, but some of them are gone.
Cheers
Hi Fripper,
The main idea is:
- to have a progression that is as long as the longest possible not apperaing of a DS (or street)
- if we meet a DS not showing for e.g. 65 times, we expect, that it will appear now as a favorite, that means hitting more than once in 5 bets. Mostly a DS is less appearing than it should and becomes then a favorite.
- every win in between:
--if we hit once in a stage of the progression this stage ends up with 0 means no loss no win.
-- if we hit twice in a stage: one win pays back the bet-amount for this stage and the second pays back several stages that were lost before
eg. the first 5 stages had no win:
-5
-5
-10
-15
-25
total loss of 60units
win in first bet next stage 8units pays 48 net 40: equalizes the first 4 lost stages and a small plus of 5 and remaining loss of 25
every second win in bet 2-5 gives a back the betamount for that stage.
remains 1 lost stage of 25 units
any next dobule win (in one stage) pays our target.
Do you see what I mean?
br
winkel
Hi winkel.
Thanks for your explanation. I see what you mean and I understand that.
Now, how do you play this?
Do you always wait 65 spins and see what the less hit DS is and then bet on it with an 65 stage progression?
Or, do you just start with any DS at any time?
I have played like the last one.
I like the concept of this, it gives nice winnings and return of investment.
/Fripper
Quote from: Fripper on Apr 20, 01:15 PM 2011
Do you always wait 65 spins and see what the less hit DS is and then bet on it with an 65 stage progression?
Or, do you just start with any DS at any time?
/Fripper
both ways will do
but waiting for a loser mostly shows you 5 winning DSs
That is another fact: normally you have a chance to win 1: 6
with this progression selecting any you have a chance to lose by 1:6
it is like a change of the odds
br
winkel
do you play RNG or live
Quote from: joiner29 on Apr 20, 01:26 PM 2011
Do you play RNG or live
mostly RNG, because I have balls for 1ct but not for 2 Euros minimum
"If I'm down -1492 units and win, but not in profit yet, then I continue with the progression. In this case I think I was not in profit (down a couple of hundred units) and did bet 377 units and won, therefore I got a high win in the end."
Fripper,
If you were down 200 units and you won a 377 unit bet (your highest bet in session 85) then you would be up 177 units and reached your target so I don't understand how you ended session 85 up 1181 units? ???
Quote from: dennisbelle on Apr 20, 01:44 PM 2011
Fripper,
If you were down 200 units and you won a 377 unit bet (your highest bet in session 85) then you would be up 177 units and reached your target so I don't understand how you ended session 85 up 1181 units? ???
First, I don't know the exact numbers but I was down say some hundred units. For example, if I'm down 200 units and win a 377 unit bet.
377 * net 5 = 1885 units
So I will be +1685 or something like that.
Hope you see what I mean.
377 units on DS pays 2262 net 1885
every win in further stages gives that result.
or he could have won 2 or three times betting 377 and that pushed him up.
see my explanation some posts before.
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 20, 01:24 PM 2011
both ways will do
but waiting for a loser mostly shows you 5 winning DSs
That is another fact: normally you have a chance to win 1: 6
with this progression selecting any you have a chance to lose by 1:6
it is like a change of the odds
br
winkel
Ok thanks again.
I will just choose any DS to start with, as I have until now.
Change the odds, hmm, I like that :D
"377 * net 5 = 1885 units"
Ok I understand! ;)
Quote from: dennisbelle on Apr 20, 02:02 PM 2011
"377 * net 5 = 1885 units"
Ok I understand! ;)
see also repy #43 for game-example
"16 13 2 3 -11
17 29 2 3 -14
18 21 2 3 -17
19 6 2 3 -20
20 11 2 3 win -5
21 2 2 3 -8
22 10 2 3 win 7 did you win enough?
23 6 2 3 4
24 3 2 3 1
25 23 2 3 -2
26 8 2 3 win 13 did you win enough?"
Winkel,
Why did you make the 3 unit bet 11 times rather than 5 times?
is betvoyager the only casino that allows 1c play or is their others
Quote from: dennisbelle on Apr 20, 02:28 PM 2011
"16 13 2 3 -11
17 29 2 3 -14
18 21 2 3 -17
19 6 2 3 -20
20 11 2 3 win -5
21 2 2 3 -8
22 10 2 3 win 7 did you win enough?
23 6 2 3 4
24 3 2 3 1
25 23 2 3 -2
26 8 2 3 win 13 did you win enough?"
Winkel,
Why did you make the 3 unit bet 11 times rather than 5 times?
Upps!
Sorry mistake in formula of Excel-Sheet.
br
winkel
Is there any particular reason to run the 1st stage of the progression twice?
Robert
Quote from: trebor on Apr 20, 05:07 PM 2011
Is there any particular reason to run the 1st stage of the progression twice?
Robert
It is the Fibonacci:
original: 1 1 2 3 5 ....
so the prolongation is
1 1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1
2 2 2 2 2
3 3 3 3 3
...
Quote from: winkel on Apr 20, 02:32 PM 2011
Upps!
Sorry mistake in formula of Excel-Sheet.
br
winkel
revised schedule
DS hits prog res.
1 34 2 1 -1
2 29 2 1 -2
3 13 2 1 -3
4 7 2 win 1 2
5 14 2 1 1
6 13 2 1 0
7 1 2 1 -1
8 29 2 1 -2
9 10 2 win 1 3
10 21 2 1 2
11 16 2 2 0
12 3 2 2 -2
13 28 2 2 -4
14 28 2 2 -6
15 26 2 2 -8
16 13 2 3 -11
17 29 2 3 -14
18 21 2 3 -17
19 6 2 3 -20
20 11 2 win 3 -5
21 2 2 5 -10
22 10 2 win 5 15
23 6 2 5 10
24 3 2 5 5
25 23 2 5 0
26 8 2 win 8 40
27 4 2 8 32
28 7 2 win 8 72
29 16 2 8 64
30 0 2 8 56
31 15 2 13 43
32 3 2 13 30
33 31 2 13 17
34 23 2 13 4
35 36 2 13 -9
36 29 2 21 -30
37 0 2 21 -51
38 12 2 win 21 54
39 20 2 21 33
40 18 2 21 12
41 8 2 win 34 182
42 25 2 34 148
43 8 2 win 34 318
Choose DS 1
wingoal around 50 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 101 : +66, 32 spins (4958) *13
Session 102 : +54, 25 spins (5000) *5
Session 103 : +65, 33 spins (4986) *13
Session 104 : +52, 26 spins (4977) *8
Session 105 : +129, 54 spins (4417) *89
Session 106 : +48, 28 spins (4989) *8
Session 107 : +54, 28 spins (4980) *8
Session 108 : +321, 54 spins (4431) *89
Session 109 : +56, 47 spins (4781) *55
Session 110 : +58, 26 spins (4986) *8
Session 111 : +370, 56 spins (4383) *144
Session 112 : +65, 33 spins (4945) *13
Session 113 : +54, 28 spins (4998) *8
Session 114 : +84, 36 spins (4966) *21
Session 115 : +56, 27 spins (4979) *8
Session 116 : +48, 32 spins (4964) *13
Session 117 : +98, 32 spins (4957) *13
Session 118 : +61, 31 spins (4964) *13
Session 119 : +45, 22 spins (4995) *5
Session 120 : +91, 48 spins (4596) *55
Total = +1875
Total = +14805
You need a very good bankroll
See this bad run on European Roulette
spin perm DS hits prog total
1 11 3 0
2 13 3 0
3 9 3 1 -1
4 13 3 Tr.TVS 1 4
5 3 3 1 3
6 36 3 1 2
7 31 3 1 1
8 9 3 1 0
9 24 3 1 -1
10 25 3 1 -2
11 16 3 Tr.TVS 1 3
12 3 3 1 2
13 33 3 2 0
14 25 3 2 -2
15 15 3 Tr.TVS 2 8
16 30 3 2 6
17 32 3 2 4
18 5 3 3 1
19 8 3 3 -2
20 23 3 3 -5
21 27 3 3 -8
22 14 3 Tr.TVS 3 7
23 0 3 5 2
24 36 3 5 -3
25 36 3 5 -8
26 14 3 Tr.TVS 5 17
27 24 3 5 12
28 3 3 8 4
29 13 3 Tr.TVS 8 44
30 36 3 8 36
31 0 3 8 28
32 12 3 8 20
33 23 3 13 7
34 21 3 13 -6
35 36 3 13 -19
36 21 3 13 -32
37 32 3 13 -45
38 8 3 21 -66
39 9 3 21 -87
40 12 3 21 -108
41 5 3 21 -129
42 20 3 21 -150
43 10 3 34 -184
44 11 3 34 -218
45 22 3 34 -252
46 30 3 34 -286
47 30 3 34 -320
48 35 3 55 -375
49 23 3 55 -430
50 5 3 55 -485
51 28 3 55 -540
52 7 3 55 -595
53 32 3 89 -684
54 13 3 Tr.TVS 89 -239
55 8 3 89 -328
56 36 3 89 -417
57 3 3 89 -506
58 19 3 144 -650
59 26 3 144 -794
60 10 3 144 -938
61 17 3 Tr.TVS 144 -218
62 36 3 144 -362
63 26 3 233 -595
64 26 3 233 -828
65 33 3 233 -1061
66 27 3 233 -1294
67 36 3 233 -1527
68 8 3 377 -1904
69 8 3 377 -2281
70 7 3 377 -2658
71 25 3 377 -3035
72 10 3 377 -3412
73 7 3 610 -4022
74 32 3 610 -4632
75 11 3 610 -5242
76 0 3 610 -5852
77 31 3 610 -6462
78 34 3 987 -7449
79 14 3 Tr.TVS 987 -2514
80 6 3 987 -3501
81 20 3 987 -4488
82 20 3 987 -5475
83 28 3 1597 -7072
84 33 3 1597 -8669
85 4 3 1597 -10266
86 30 3 1597 -11863
87 19 3 1597 -13460
88 30 3 2584 -16044
89 5 3 2584 -18628
90 17 3 Tr.TVS 2584 -5708
91 2 3 2584 -8292
92 36 3 2584 -10876
93 34 3 4181 -15057
94 18 3 Tr.TVS 4181 5848
Wow, I would have taken a loss of 5000 units (a bankroll). because we know that a DS can sleep for long and also have a very high std. deviation, so I won't risk playing to long trying to recoup.
We are all different tho.
And playing at no-zero table would have gained you 3 zero losses. That's why I like no-zero tables :)
results of this run:
highest needed bankroll (incl. next bet) 19238
win: 5848
total bets: 42182
% of totbet: 13,8637%
highest plus on the way: 44
spins: 94
hits: 11
should have hit: 94*6/37= 15,24
I've been up to 987 myself. Being only 1p units it's easier on the nerves but I was getting to the point where you think will it hit in time for my bankroll.
How often do you find progressions going that high Winkel. Do you carry on to the table limit or do you have a stop point.
Robert
Choose DS 1
wingoal around 50 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 121 : +62, 44 spins (4889) *34
Session 122 : +46, 25 spins (4998) *8
Session 123 : +126, 46 spins (4736) *55
Session 124 : +40, 19 spins (4998) *3
Session 125 : +117, 37 spins (4968) *21
Session 126 : +170, 53 spins (4683) *89
Session 127 : +78, 43 spins (4908) *34
Session 128 : +952, 71 spins (1394) *610
Session 129 : +3621, 76 spins (1246) *987
Session 130 : +68, 47 spins (4678) *55
Session 131 : +48, 32 spins (4983) *13
Session 132 : +62, 53 spins (4575) *89
Session 133 : +74, 30 spins (4954) *8
Session 134 : +44, 41 spins (4874) *34
Session 135 : +189, 46 spins (4778) *55
Session 136 : +35, 24 spins (4983) *5
Session 137 : +45, 22 spins (4980) *5
Session 138 : +109, 48 spins (4774) *55
Session 139 : +42, 36 spins (4872) *21
Session 140 : +81, 39 spins (4913) *21
Total = +6009
Total = +20814
I think that a 50 units target is a bit high, 30-50 units would be more approriate.
Quote from: trebor on Apr 21, 11:34 AM 2011
I've been up to 987 myself. Being only 1p units it's easier on the nerves but I was getting to the point where you think will it hit in time for my bankroll.
How often do you find progressions going that high Winkel. Do you carry on to the table limit or do you have a stop point.
Robert
It was my first bet that high. Highest til then was 610.
I would bet to table-limit, but therefore you have to have a bankroll of 3751,20
115 bets possible
highest bet 286,57
br
winkel
Quote from: aleks06 on Apr 21, 11:53 AM 2011
Choose DS 1
wingoal around 50 units
...
I think that a 50 units target is a bit high, 30-50 units would be more approriate.
look at my calculation which says 25!
Choose DS 5
wingoal = ~50 units
* = highest bet
Session 141 : +78, 28 spins (-14) *8
Session 142 : +50, 21 spins (-4) *5
Session 143 : +58, 19 spins (-4) *3
Session 144 : +60, 40 spins (-108) *21
Session 145 : +90, 43 spins (-80) *34
Session 146 : +61, 31 spins (-6) *13
Session 147 : +376, 55 spins (-425) *89
Session 148 : +62, 27 spins (-6) *8
Session 149 : +279, 46 spins (-166) *55
Session 150 : +55, 20 spins (0) *3
Session 151 : +48, 36 spins (-57) *21
Session 152 : +1306, 71 spins (-2498) *610
Session 153 : +78, 36 spins (-72) *21
Session 154 : +386, 53 spins (-415) *89
Session 155 : +64, 23 spins (-5) *5
Session 156 : +70, 26 spins (-15) *8
Session 157 : +130, 45 spins (-210) *34
Session 158 : +100, 34 spins (-32) *13
Session 159 : +102, 36 spins (-56) *21
Session 160 : +59, 24 spins (-23) *5
Total = +3512
Total 160 sessions = +24326
Choose DS 1
wingoal at least 25 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 161 : +52, 34 spins (4948) *13
Session 162 : +32, 21 spins (4934) *5
Session 163 : +76, 55 spins (4186) *89
Session 164 : +28, 26 spins (4983) *8
Session 165 : +30, 14 spins (4999) *2
Session 166 : +34, 34 spins (4944) *13
Session 167 : +40, 26 spins (4955) *8
Session 168 : +32, 27 spins (4950) *8
Session 169 : +26, 21 spins (4986) *5
Session 170 : +43, 31 spins (4946) *13
Session 171 : +143, 50 spins (4703) *55
Session 172 : +45, 39 spins (4940) *21
Session 173 : +30, 14 spins (4998) *2
Session 174 : +34, 26 spins (4974) *8
Session 175 : +66, 38 spins (4856) *21
Session 176 : +25, 20 spins (4995) *3
Session 177 : +27, 22 spins (4988) *5
Session 178 : +34, 17 spins (4994) *3
Session 179 : +48, 36 spins (4943) *21
Session 180 : +31, 20 spins (5000) *3
Total = +876
Total = +25202
Choose DS 1
wingoal at least 25 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 181 : +29, 24 spins (4989) *5
Session 182 : +118, 55 spins (4495) *89
Session 183 : +46, 26 spins (4986) *8
Session 184 : +33, 22 spins (4994) *5
Session 185 : +39, 22 spins (4992) *5
Session 186 : +36, 25 spins (4986) *5
Session 187 : +25, 18 spins (4997) *3
Session 188 : +28, 17 spins (4996) *3
Session 189 : +33, 22 spins (4983) *5
Session 190 : +32, 30 spins (4992) *8
Session 191 : +135, 54 spins (4682) *89
Session 192 : +51, 37 spins (4915) *21
Session 193 : -5000, 76 spins (-192) *987 CRASH
Session 194 : +37, 18 spins (4996) *3
Session 195 : +96, 49 spins (4546) *55
Session 196 : +39, 22 spins (4998) *5
Session 197 : +108, 36 spins (4938) *21
Session 198 : +43, 31 spins (4946) *13
Session 199 : +59, 50 spins (4564) *55
Session 200 : +26, 13 spins (4998) *2
Total = -3987
Total = +21215
Quote from: aleks06 on Apr 21, 04:02 PM 2011
Choose DS 1
wingoal at least 25 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 181 : +29, 24 spins (4989) *5
Session 182 : +118, 55 spins (4495) *89
Session 183 : +46, 26 spins (4986) *8
Session 184 : +33, 22 spins (4994) *5
Session 185 : +39, 22 spins (4992) *5
Session 186 : +36, 25 spins (4986) *5
Session 187 : +25, 18 spins (4997) *3
Session 188 : +28, 17 spins (4996) *3
Session 189 : +33, 22 spins (4983) *5
Session 190 : +32, 30 spins (4992) *8
Session 191 : +135, 54 spins (4682) *89
Session 192 : +51, 37 spins (4915) *21
Session 193 : -5000, 76 spins (-192) *987 CRASH
Session 194 : +37, 18 spins (4996) *3
Session 195 : +96, 49 spins (4546) *55
Session 196 : +39, 22 spins (4998) *5
Session 197 : +108, 36 spins (4938) *21
Session 198 : +43, 31 spins (4946) *13
Session 199 : +59, 50 spins (4564) *55
Session 200 : +26, 13 spins (4998) *2
Total = -3987
Total = +21215
--------------------------
"Session 193 : -5000, 76 spins (-192) *987 CRASH"
you mean you couldn't reach a +25 units within those 76 spins?!, or get even close to it?
vundarosa
I have lost 5192 units after 76 spins.
a bankroll a little bigger would have not crashed.
Choose DS 1
wingoal at least 25 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 201 : +25, 20 spins (4997) *3
Session 202 : +48, 25 spins (4989) *5
Session 203 : +28, 26 spins (4968) *8
Session 204 : +25, 18 spins (4988) *3
Session 205 : +49, 31 spins (4944) *13
Session 206 : +96, 36 spins (4926) *21
Session 207 : +25, 18 spins (4991) *3
Session 208 : +26, 21 spins (4996) *5
Session 209 : +425, 66 spins (2375) *610
Session 210 : +48, 32 spins (4972) *13
Session 211 : +22, 34 spins (4918) *13
Session 212 : +45, 37 spins (4922) *21
Session 213 : +26, 13 spins (4997) *2
Session 214 : +433, 52 spins (4543) *89
Session 215 : +34, 23 spins (4984) *5
Session 216 : +28, 15 spins (4990) *2
Session 217 : +42, 28 spins (4992) *8
Session 218 : +22, 23 spins (4997) *5
Session 219 : +39, 22 spins (4989) *5
Session 220 : +28, 12 spins (4999) *2
Total = +1514
Total = +22729
Choose DS 1
wingoal at least 25 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 221 : +57, 39 spins (4952) *21
Session 222 : +55, 3 spins (4950) *13
Session 223 : +32, 21 spins (4986) *5
Session 224 : +20, 21 spins (4995) *5
Session 225 : -5000, 72 spins () *610 CRASH
Session 226 : +32, 30 spins (4961) *8
Session 227 : +19, 18 spins (4992) *3
Session 228 : +226, 57 spins (4506) *144
Session 229 : +24, 14 spins (4998) *2
Session 230 : +84, 51 spins (4474) *89
Session 231 : +22, 26 spins (4982) *8
Session 232 : +38, 30 spins (4958) *8
Session 233 : +18, 14 spins (4998) *2
Session 234 : +38, 27 spins (4956) *8
Session 235 : +18, 40 spins (4913) *21
Session 236 : +19, 20 spins (4995) *3
Session 237 : +18, 40 spins (4850) *21
Session 238 : +26, 13 spins (4999) *2
Session 239 : +28, 17 spins (4992) *3
Session 240 : +38, 27 spins (4986) *8
Total = -4188
Total = +18541
Choose DS 1
wingoal at least 25 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 241 : +279, 80 spins (344) *987
Session 242 : +68, 27 spins (4980) *8
Session 243 : +22, 19 spins (4998) *3
Session 244 : +22, 15 spins (4992) *2
Session 245 : +21, 22 spins (4996) *5
Session 246 : +28, 26 spins (4982) *8
Session 247 : +22, 29 spins (4942) *8
Session 248 : +27, 22 spins (4998) *5
Session 249 : +24, 14 spins (5000) *2
Session 250 : +124, 45 spins (4784) *34
Session 251 : +26, 27 spins (4984) *8
Session 252 : +70, 34 spins (4953) *13
Session 253 : +24, 32 spins (4932) *13
Session 254 : +29, 24 spins (4984) *5
Session 255 : +28, 19 spins (4988) *3
Session 256 : +19, 20 spins (4989) *3
Session 257 : +60, 43 spins (4874) *34
Session 258 : +22, 17 spins (4997) *3
Session 259 : +40, 23 spins (4983) *5
Session 260 : +248, 47 spins (4698) *55
Total = +1203
Total = +19744
Hi winkel
I have to say that I think that we shall play with more risk. Because as you said, the more you risk the more you win. With this progression that's very true. After my 100 sessions with a wingoal of around 50 units I have won on average 122 units/session. That's very nice.
As you see when aleks06 tested with a lower wingoal he had much lower profit, and the losing sessions still come. I believe in risking more to earn more. We all know that we will lose sessions, the thing is to win as much as possible between those losing sessions. This progression delivers just that. :thumbsup:
What do you think is the best wingoal?
Quote from: Fripper on Apr 22, 05:35 AM 2011
Hi winkel
I have to say that I think that we shall play with more risk. Because as you said, the more you risk the more you win. With this progression that's very true. After my 100 sessions with a wingoal of around 50 units I have won on average 122 units/session. That's very nice.
As you see when aleks06 tested with a lower wingoal he had much lower profit, and the losing sessions still come. I believe in risking more to earn more. We all know that we will lose sessions, the thing is to win as much as possible between those losing sessions. This progression delivers just that. :thumbsup:
What do you think is the best wingoal?
-----------------------
and also after how many banks would you double your unit value, if ever?
vundarosa
Hi Fripper,
Hi Aleks,
that's a question of grind :D
I made some tests.
680 days of Wiesbaden
1 attack per day
first picture: DS1 to DS6 results for win-target 25
as you can see there is only one DS losing at a day never 2
from law of third: 4 are winning "long-term"
Same for a win target of 50
But you can see: More crashes than at target 25
Then I took the worst DS #6 and checked some win-targets:
targets 1 2 3 5 10 25 50
results 11591 14723 -90562 -74251 -51901 -221055 -328156
So we could have brought even the badest DS to a winner.
In the picture you can see, that a higher targe would bring you not that massive recovery.
The reason:
If you have to play 50 spins to get 1 unit, you will gain 60 units.
This is equal to all other targets. If you donÂÃ,´t get 1 you donÂÃ,´t get 10. But in the end in both targets you will gain 60!
In these tests I can see that every loss is around 100000 units. Why not test with a 5000 unit bank?
How many spins did you test?
Yes, 25 would produce less losses than 50 unit target, but also much less profit.
"So we could have brought even the badest DS to a winner."
Do you mean that if we had a win target of 2 units/session we would have won 14723 units in those 680 days?
Hi Fripper,
I donÂÃ,´t count the spins. but there are maximum 115 spins bet per day.
I do these tests under extrem conditions:
highest bet is table limit of betv. unlimited bankroll.
Yes with target 2 we would have won 14723 units.
br
winkel
I made the same with the wining DS #4 and took some higher targets as well:
targets 2 144 89 5 10 25 50
results 21926 -208818 150613 41912 81081 156830 84142
thanks for the answer winkel ;)
Quote from: winkel on Apr 22, 05:54 AM 2011
Then I took the worst DS #6 and checked some win-targets:
targets 1 2 3 5 10 25 50
results 11591 14723 -90562 -74251 -51901 -221055 -328156
So we could have brought even the badest DS to a winner.
In the picture you can see, that a higher targe would bring you not that massive recovery.
The reason:
If you have to play 50 spins to get 1 unit, you will gain 60 units.
This is equal to all other targets. If you donÂÃ,´t get 1 you donÂÃ,´t get 10. But in the end in both targets you will gain 60!
so the conclusion is to play with a lower win target ( 2 ? )
Quote from: aleks06 on Apr 22, 06:49 AM 2011
Thanks for the answer winkel ;)
so the conclusion is to play with a lower win target ( 2 ? )
Not really! IÂÃ,´m thinking about a kind of mixing targets, but IÂÃ,´m not sure yet.
Could be like this:
- when I start betting and have a early hit, I restart. target would be any Plus. So I collect every win. small but win.
- If I reach higher Prog-state I donÂÃ,´t stop at +1 or +5 but try to hit a higher Plus. This could be min. half of bet-size but max. of ??
Just thinking no testing so far.
br
winkel
that sounds good.
anyway when high progressions are reached we always end up with a good profit.
Quote from: aleks06 on Apr 22, 08:10 AM 2011
That sounds good.
anyway when high progressions are reached we always end up with a good profit.
Guys, Just a thought that has been working with dozens for me. I start betting as you detail, but if I get a win and I'm still below my win target, I stay at that level until I lose 2 in a row (number of bets per level for dozens. With lines you would have to lose 5 in a row before moving to the next level) It still wins, but does add a level of safety to the progression.
Another option would be to drop back 5 bets on a win. This would slow the upward climb even more.
One final input. The system Goldfinger in the notorious 305 roulette systems used a similar approach. In a nutshell, the author started at 1 and every loss he added 1 unit to the bet size and on every win he dropped back 5 steps. He had some rules about betting that we fairly important. He would take pick a new number if he hadn't won in 15 bets. He would take the loss if after like 20 bets he was close to even and his next bet was more than 9 units. He had some other situations that resulted in ending the attack before a positive balance was reached.
If you are interested, I can post the whole system for you perusal.
G
It does add a level of safety but it kills the profit.
The benefit of this progression is further we go in the progression more we will earn.
what do you think ?
Hi GLC,
that is a contradiction to my idea.
What that guy does is lower the wins when they come up in a row.
My idea is to catch such "winning streaks" and to maximize the win.
as told before to the Fibonacci: some examples
34 win +170
13 win +65 total 235
34 win +170
21 win +105 total 285
34 win +170
34 win +170 total 340
34 win +170
55 win +275 total 445
and now that we have lost all further steps so we had a balance of -270 before first hit at 34!
and as my tests told: even if you bet 115 steps of Progression you will find streaks that wonÂÃ,´t win!
You couldnÂÃ,´t equalize these losses with that re-stepping in a win.
br
winkel
I think I found a trick to gain more from early hits and reach target earlier:
If I have a hit in first 5 spins, then I raise progression to 2 units from spin 6 not from spin 11.
from todays test:
target 25
spin L/W Prog win total
1 1 -1 -1
2 W 1 5 4
3 1 -1 3
4 1 -1 2
5 1 -1 1
6 W 2 10 11
7 2 -2 9
8 2 -2 7
9 2 -2 5
10 W 2 10 15
11 W 3 15 30 restart
12 1 -1 29
13 W 1 5 34
14 W 1 5 39
15 1 -1 38
16 1 -1 37
17 2 -2 35
18 W 2 10 45
19 2 -2 43
20 2 -2 41
21 2 -2 39
22 3 -3 36
23 3 -3 33
24 3 -3 30
25 3 -3 27
26 3 -3 24
27 5 -5 19
28 5 -5 14
29 W 5 25 39
30 5 -5 34
31 5 -5 29
32 8 -8 21
33 W 8 40 61 restart
34 1 -1 60
35 W 1 5 65
target 50
spin L/W Prog win total
1 1 -1 -1
2 W 1 5 4
3 1 -1 3
4 1 -1 2
5 1 -1 1
6 W 2 10 11
7 2 -2 9
8 2 -2 7
9 2 -2 5
10 W 2 10 15
11 W 3 15 30
12 3 -3 27
13 W 3 15 42
14 W 3 15 57
15 1 -1 56 restart
16 1 -1 55
17 1 -1 54
18 W 1 5 59
19 1 -1 58
20 2 -2 56
21 2 -2 54
22 2 -2 52
23 2 -2 50
24 2 -2 48
25 3 -3 45
26 3 -3 42
27 3 -3 39
28 3 -3 36
29 W 3 15 51
30 5 -5 46
31 5 -5 41
32 5 -5 36
33 W 5 25 61 t
34 5 -5 56
35 W 8 40 96
original bet target 50
spin L/W Prog win total
1 1 -1 -1
2 W 1 5 4
3 1 -1 3
4 1 -1 2
5 1 -1 1
6 W 1 5 6
7 1 -1 5
8 1 -1 4
9 1 -1 3
10 W 1 5 8
11 W 2 10 18
12 2 -2 16
13 W 2 10 26
14 W 2 10 36
15 2 -2 34
16 3 -3 31
17 3 -3 28
18 W 3 15 43
19 3 -3 40
20 3 -3 37
21 5 -5 32
22 5 -5 27
23 5 -5 22
24 5 -5 17
25 5 -5 12
26 8 -8 4
27 8 -8 -4
28 8 -8 -12
29 W 8 40 28
30 8 -8 20
31 13 -13 7
32 13 -13 -6
33 W 13 65 59
34 1 -1 58
35 W 1 5 63
original bet target 100
spin L/W Prog win total
1 1 -1 -1
2 W 1 5 4
3 1 -1 3
4 1 -1 2
5 1 -1 1
6 W 1 5 6
7 1 -1 5
8 1 -1 4
9 1 -1 3
10 W 1 5 8
11 W 2 10 18
12 2 -2 16
13 W 2 10 26
14 W 2 10 36
15 2 -2 34
16 3 -3 31
17 3 -3 28
18 W 3 15 43
19 3 -3 40
20 3 -3 37
21 5 -5 32
22 5 -5 27
23 5 -5 22
24 5 -5 17
25 5 -5 12
26 8 -8 4
27 8 -8 -4
28 8 -8 -12
29 W 8 40 28
30 8 -8 20
31 13 -13 7
32 13 -13 -6
33 W 13 65 59
34 13 -13 46
35 W 13 65 111
thanks for the trick.
have you figured out what is the best win target or not yet ?
Quote from: aleks06 on Apr 24, 06:20 AM 2011
Thanks for the trick.
have you figured out what is the best win target or not yet ?
We have one major problem:
Like in my examples if we have many early hits (7 hits in 18 spins) we might havenÂÃ,´t hit our target. But now we have to face a longer streak of non-hits.
If we continue the progression we will reach a very high level (possibly reaching table-limit) and big drawdown.
If we restart despite of having not reached our target we possibly can survive and win.
Thats what I call "gamblerÂÃ,´s intelligence"
br
winkel
Quote from: winkel on Apr 24, 06:36 AM 2011
We have one major problem:
Like in my examples if we have many early hits (7 hits in 18 spins) we might havenÂÃ,´t hit our target. But now we have to face a longer streak of non-hits.
If we continue the progression we will reach a very high level (possibly reaching table-limit) and big drawdown.
If we restart despite of having not reached our target we possibly can survive and win.
that's what I call "gamblerÂÃ,´s intelligence"
br
winkel
Yes it comes down to how you see the game, there can't be rules for everything. One have to feel somethings yourself and watch for example if you have many hits in the beginning then do a full restart.
Quote from: winkel on Apr 24, 06:36 AM 2011
We have one major problem:
Like in my examples if we have many early hits (7 hits in 18 spins) we might havenÂÃ,´t hit our target. But now we have to face a longer streak of non-hits.
If we continue the progression we will reach a very high level (possibly reaching table-limit) and big drawdown.
If we restart despite of having not reached our target we possibly can survive and win.
that's what I call "gamblerÂÃ,´s intelligence"
br
winkel
------------------------
"If we restart despite of having not reached our target we possibly can survive and win."
Couldn't agree with you more here. I am playing with a 3000u BR and my highest fibo is 233u, if winning at 55, after early hits and close to profit generally drop a few steps down the progression....i don't usually do a complete reset/restart...
vundarosa
Hi vunderosa,
you will surely remember my words ;)
br
winkel
mr. winkle do you think the fibo would work on betting 2 dozenens at the same time
mr. winlke do you think the fibo would work on 2 dozens at the same time?
Quote from: warrior on Apr 25, 08:02 AM 2011
Mr. winkle do you think the fibo would work on betting 2 dozenens at the same time
mr. winlke do you think the fibo would work on 2 dozens at the same time?
Only if you play the progression o each doz separately.
But as I mentioned before: Prog is too steep for doz. and return is bad
br
winkel
Winkel,
Since it appears there is no specific trigger for choosing which line to play, have you played this on all lines simultaneously after a hit on a line and then stop at your target?
Regards, WG
Hi WallyGator,
I play the same line since I started real money bets.
br
winkel
Here's another possibility with lines. Your thoughts?
Seems to be very complicated to bet.
I made a sheet with the same spins: Target >20units per line
first column spins
sec. col. total br
3rd to last line 1 to 6
36 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 5
24 0 -2 -2 -2 4 -2 4
13 0 -3 -3 3 3 -3 3
2 0 2 -4 2 2 -4 2
8 0 1 1 1 1 -5 1
29 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
19 0 -1 -1 -1 5 -1 -1
32 0 -2 -2 -2 4 -2 4
35 0 -3 -3 -3 3 -3 9
33 0 -4 -4 -4 2 -4 14
33 0 -6 -6 -6 0 -6 24
5 2 4 -8 -8 -2 -8 24
22 4 2 -10 -10 8 -10 24
23 6 0 -12 -12 18 -12 24
32 -4 -2 -14 -14 16 -14 24
13 -1 -5 -17 1 13 -17 24
35 -16 -8 -20 -2 10 -20 24
25 -13 -11 -23 -5 7 -5 24
6 -10 4 -26 -8 4 -8 24
8 -7 1 -11 -11 1 -11 24
7 -2 -4 14 -16 -4 -16 24
10 3 -9 39 -21 -9 -21 24
17 13 -14 39 4 -14 -26 24
6 23 11 39 -1 -19 -31 24
11 3 6 39 -6 -24 -36 24
36 -29 -2 39 -14 -32 -44 24
5 -13 38 39 -22 -40 -52 24
36 -37 38 39 -30 -48 -60 24
26 -13 38 39 -38 -56 -20 24
6 -37 38 39 -46 -64 -28 24
9 -76 38 39 -59 -77 -41 24
32 -115 38 39 -72 -90 -54 24
10 -154 38 39 -85 -103 -67 24
36 -193 38 39 -98 -116 -80 24
30 -154 38 39 -111 -129 -15 24
18 -91 38 39 -6 -150 -36 24
14 -28 38 39 99 -171 -57 24
13 -70 38 39 99 -192 -78 24
17 -112 38 39 99 -213 -99 24
12 -154 38 39 99 -234 -120 24
25 -18 38 39 99 -268 50 24
21 152 38 39 99 -98 50 24
17 118 38 39 99 -132 50 24
23 288 38 39 99 38 50 24
Quote from: warrior on Apr 25, 08:02 AM 2011
Mr. winkle do you think the fibo would work on betting 2 dozenens at the same time
mr. winlke do you think the fibo would work on 2 dozens at the same time?
Winkel,
Please forgive me for interupting your topic. I just have a thought for warrior.
Warrior,
I too have been thinking about how to best play this on dozens. As Winkel said, it's a little riskier than on lines, but I have been testing a thought and it seems to work pretty well on 2 dozens if you have a 3-5000 unit bank.
We use the following progression. We stay at a level until we lose at that level, at which time we go to the next level, or we recover all our losses and have a plus balance.
1-1
2-2
4-4
7-7
11-11
16-16
22-22
29-29
etc...
the progression is determined by
adding 1st 1 to 1-1 which = 2-2.
Then add 2 to 2-2 = 4-4.
Then add 3 to 4-4 = 7-7.
Then add 4 to 7-7 = 11-11.
Then add 5 to 11-11 = 16-16.
continue adding previous amount +1 to each level to get your next bet amount.
I first started playing this by just increasing each double bet by 2 units and keep increasing each spin whether you win or lose. That works okay also, but the progression I gave tends to replicate the fibo more closely.
The reason I thought to increase by 2 each bet is if with lines we bet each amount by the payoff of 5:1 and the payoff for 2 dozens is 1:2 then instead of betting each level by 2 which is correct for a single dozen, we would have to bet each level 1/2 a time which can't be done, so we just increase by 2 for each bet and we are staying close to the ratio Winkel suggests.
I have tested this 5 times and have won 100 units each time. The most I have had to bet was 67 on each dozen. I've never been down even 300 units yet.
Test it both ways. I'm sure there's a way to play this that will suit everyone.
Winkel don't put out no junk. But like he said. You have to be willing to bet money to win money.
LOL,
GLC
One more comment.
I prefer this progression. 1-1; 3-3; 6-6; 10-10; 15-15; etc... The difference is that our next bet after losing 1-1 is 3-3 instead of 2-2. The reason is that we win the next spin so often that betting 3-3 adds more than it costs.
From there we just keeping adding last increase amount +1 to the bet sizes and put that on each dozen. This doesn't make that much difference as far as bet sizes goes, but it does make a difference for the number of units accumulated.
I'm actually considering playing 1-1; 3-3; 9-9; and then increase by 3 for the next bet and then +1 to the last increase number from then on. Most of our accumulated units are from the +1's we win while betting 1-1. After 9-9, we're just trying to recover so we can get back to winning level.
If we want to grind it out and keep our bets as low as possible, we should play the 1-1; 2-2; 4-4; 7-7; etc... progression with this caveat. Once we win if our next bet will put us well over our previous high, we can drop the size of our bet to just recover bock to even or +1.
It all depends on your comfort level.
George
PS Just played 2 more sessions to +100 using the 1-1; 3-3; 6-6; 10-10; etc progression on a double zero wheel. Never had to bet more than 21-21.. I'm sure I'm being very lucky. If not, Katy-bar-the-door.
I just want to know why you have all these weird A things when you write (like "...that's what I call "gamblerÂÃ,´s intelligence") and I also want to know what the "br" over your name (br
winkel) means. these are the burning questions I have about your system posts. the rest of you can have fun progressing yourselves out of all your savings till you don't have a pot to pee in.
well thats a thought--but light professions have worked for me
which light professions have you been in that have worked well for you? do you mean like a desk job as opposed to being a landscaper or something like that?
by the way the description of this section says "Flat bets. No progressions. Your flat betting methods go here." but I guess people just don't notice these things.
and winkel I still want to know what's up with the weird A's and what does "br" over your name mean? this is what I really want to learn from this thread (in this flat bet no progression section.) also one more question-- you don't actually play these systems for real money, do you?
Winkel.
Can you post the hole Fibo progression with the stepps we use?
Cheers
Jon
Quote from: jon86 on May 09, 09:43 PM 2011
Winkel.
Can you post the hole Fibo progression with the stepps we use?
Cheers
Jon
Jon my friend, since Winkel's often not available, I'll answer for him.
The fibonacci progression is as follows:
1-1-2-3-5-8-13-21-34-55-89-144-233 etc...
It is figured by adding the last 2 steps together which gives the next bet:
1+1=2; 1+2=3; 2+3=5; 3+5=8; 5+8=13; 8+13=21; etc
You can go as high as you can afford or until table limits.
In reply #7 Winkel indicated that he only went to bet 233 and then took the loss.
Good Luck,
G
Thanks GLC :)
Jon
GLC
So we use five stepp on each stepp of the progression?
Example:
1111122222?
Jon
Quote from: jon86 on May 10, 10:00 AM 2011
GLC
So we use five stepp on each stepp of the progression?
Example:
1111122222?
Jon
Yes, but the "1" is two times so it goes like this:
1111111111222223333355555888881313131313....
Quote from: Fripper on May 10, 10:17 AM 2011
Yes, but the "1" is two times so it goes like this:
1111111111222223333355555888881313131313....
Yes i forgot :)
Thanks:)
Jon
When i am in high stepp on the progression and win but i am still in a negative balance do i just keep on betting the next stepp of progression or do i go down in the progression?
Jon
You just follow the progression every time until you have reached your wingoal.
Don't go up and down in the progression when you lose/win.
Quote from: Fripper on May 10, 01:39 PM 2011
You just follow the progression every time until you have reached your wingoal.
Don't go up and down in the progression when you lose/win.
So when i am in pluss balance i go back to betting 1 unit on the DB line right?
Jon
I´m playing this with real money.
Best is:
Bet until +2 or higher and then restart prog-strategy.
The reason is:
When you played quite a time and didn´t reach your (higher) wingoal, then you could find a streak of long losses. (The longest I met was 40 till now)
with the permanent restart you ensure that your losses are all in the small bet areas.
(e.g. 40 losses is stages: 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 total loss 270)
if you are already at stage 34 and didn´t get you wingoal and this bad streak gets you, you will lose: 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 = -12645 (or higher stages/loss)
br
winkel
That was exactly what i was thinking.
Thanks Winkel.
Cheers
Jon
Just to see what happens I did bet the same DS all the time:
results
spins all bet: 4856
units bet: 47415
win: 6479
bet per spin : 9.76 units
win per spin: 1.33 units
win/bet-Ratio: 13.66%
Sigma so far: 3.17
i have played this in a brick and mortar casino for about 4 hours spread over the last 2 weeks with certain modifications.......i only play the fibo for 25 steps and i play either 2 or 3 DS's at one time with separate Fibos......i kind of figured if one DS is not getting hits then 6 numbers are out of the equation the other 30 are getting more action....so if i lose one progression the other 1 or 2 are hitting and balancing of the loss , when both or all 3 are hitting it really rakes in chips
STILL A VERY SHORT TEST!!!!!!!
Well all i can say omfgwowwtf this is awsome : )
currently been playing this on skyvagas account with nodeposit bonus, they got zodiac roulette offering 4:1 on line bets with 12 number table. works perfect for very low balance, started with £2, playing 1p bets.
good job mate.
Where can I see the last version of this method/system?
This is the only version
Oh yes, I see now....thanks.
Greetings mr. Winkel
First of all thank you for posting. It is pleasure reading and testing ideas from man of your knowledge about this game. Especialy for young players like me. Been testing this for a while and all i can say it works as you said.
Personaly i am more interested in street betting on this principle and i would like to ask one question. You said it is "recommended" to wait 65 spins virtualy and then start play on DS with lowest number of hits.
Is it same number of recommended virtual spins for streets? What do you suggest?
Best regards
Drazen
Quote from: drazen_cro on Jul 15, 04:42 PM 2011
Personaly I am more interested in street betting on this principle and I would like to ask one question. You said it is "recommended" to wait 65 spins virtualy and then start play on DS with lowest number of hits.
Is it same number of recommended virtual spins for streets? What do you suggest?
Best regards
Drazen
You can also play without virual spins just look at your last game and start with the street with least number of hits.
The number of virtual spins is calculated from the progression:
for streets we calculate with 11
highest stage of progression is 1500 units (like on BV)
highest stage in fibonacci is:
1
1
2
3
5
8
13
21
34
55
89
144
233
377
610
987
16 stages 11times so we have 176 virtual spins
If your highest risc is stage 233 so calculate: stage 13 times 11 = 143 spins
br
winkel
Understood. Thank you.
Regards
Drazen
Hi there...
It's Tom here.
Just started to read this interesting thread.
As one of the members asked me if I could code this puppy.
Still trolling through it.
What I need are some basics.
I guess I will have to spend some time reading this thread to understand what to do.
So, I may have some questions.
That is if I decide to code it.
Now that I have coded and sort of understood how to code in RSS Pro.
I am slowly getting better at writing scripts.
This post, I was told. Seems to be the HG. (Holy Grail)
But I have yet to read the entire posts.
Please be patient with me.
So I can catch up.
And see if I wana touch this puppy.
Thank you mr winkel for this thread. i decided to study this, and maybe came up with way i would like to play this. Base of progression is same as yours, but bet selection and way i play progression are little different. I tryed to avoid big draftdowns actualy. Graph is attached.
I also look forward you to continue explaining in your "tell tale spins" thread, so maybe i could even more improve all this.
I also look forward if you could translate your Campus.de page on english so i could understand all things there. I think there are many very good things that could help me to improve my game. After all you are man of big knowledge for this game.
regards
Drazen
Quote from: drazen_cro on Jul 20, 08:43 AM 2011
Thank you mr winkel for this thread. I decided to study this, and maybe came up with way I would like to play this. Base of progression is same as yours, but bet selection and way I play progression are little different. I tryed to avoid big draftdowns actualy. Graph is attached.
@Drazen:
Would you care to share this ...... ??
Quote from: Wally Gator on Jul 25, 10:18 PM 2011
@Drazen:
Would you care to share this ...... ??
Well nothing special. Trigger for start betting is when DS sleeps for 12 spins. Whenever i am +2 in new high i stop and search another DS like that.
Regards
I tested this for 5000 spins betting the streets. So every stage of the fibo was 11 spins long.
Starting bankroll: 500 units.
Profit : 10747 units
Highest bet 610 units.
Cheers
Quote from: Fripper on Jul 28, 11:06 AM 2011
I tested this for 5000 spins betting the streets. So every stage of the fibo was 11 spins long.
Starting bankroll: 500 units.
Profit : 10747 units
Highest bet 610 units.
Cheers
---------------
@Fripper,
how do you go about chosing which street to bet?, anything in particular?!
vundarosa
Quote from: vundarosa on Jul 28, 12:10 PM 2011
---------------
@Fripper,
how do you go about chosing which street to bet?, anything in particular?!
vundarosa
I choose the one I feel for, it's just random. I guess that works best.
After I reach +50 I switch street, randomly, it's that easy :)
This is a cool system - Thanks Winkel!
So far I'm up 3000 units roughly, and the most I've bet is 144 units betting on DS's. Seems like it only wins when you get two wins within about 6 spins of each other - the first win to recover your losses then the second win to actually make a profit. Gets a bit scary when your waaaaay down in the progression knowing you still need two fairly close wins....
Would this work betting all 6 DS's at once? separate banks maybe? As mentioned earlier if one DS is getting high in the progression then couldnt the other 5 kinda prop it up by winning to allow the 6th to go deep in the progression?
I've played it this way and it works well. However, be aware that you MUST have the BR as you will have sessions that go well into the progression. Good luck. It is a great way of playing.
Just a quick word to Winkel - I hope you don't decide to leave the forum now that it has a new owner. I was tempted to sign up at your forum but I can't speak or understand a word of German.
Winkel can you run a test on dozens but with this bet selection ?
Bet the second last dozen but bet after two virtual Ls...
and after real win wait again two Ls. Or better bet without wait , just bet the
second last ? (not penultimate)
Of course with your progression 11,22,33,55,88.....
Ex. second last:
Doz
1
2 bet doz 1 (d1)
2 bet d1 (if we bet penultimate , bet d2)
3 bet d2
2 bet d3
1 bet d2
1 bet d2
1 bet d2
3 bet d1
3 bet d1
2 bet d3 ...so on...
1
2
thanks
Another v. good bet selection for dozens( in my opinion)
Let s say hit number 34(doz.3) now bet this one for the next 4 spins,
if win stay on the winer until found 4Ls, now start to bet on the fourth
position dozen.
EX:
6 bet d1
20 l1
21 l2
18 l3
2 w bet d1
30 l1
34 l2
20 l3
32 l4 bet d3
28 w bet d3
4 l1
0 l2
7 l3
35 w bet d3
36 w bet d3
33 w bet d3
34 w bet d3
22 l1
4 l2
30 w bet d3
3 l1
13 l2
8 l3
17 l4 bet d2
8 l1
18 w bet d2
9 l1
3 l2
21 w bet d2
1 l1
36 l2
5 l3
20 w bet d2
23 w bet d2
6 l1
19 w bet d2
20 w bet d2
27 l1
12 l2
9 l3
32 l4 bet d3
18 l1
33 w bet d3
8 l1
23 l2
10 l3
7 l4 bet d1
17 l1
1 w bet d1
21 l1
13 l2
7 w bet d1
26 l1
0 l2
26 l3
36 l4 bet d3
22 l1
27 w bet d3
24 l1
18 l2
30 w bet d3
2 l1
36 w bet d3
14 l1
7 l2
14 l3
8 l4 bet d1
33 l1
20 l2
18 l3
3 w bet d1
29 l1
14 l2
14 l3
25 l4 bet d3
32 w bet d3
25 w bet d3
7 l1
6 l2
26 w bet d3
16 l1
1 l2
9 l3
13 l4 bet d2
14 w bet d2
33 l1
25 l2
4 l3
21 w bet d2
6 l1
9 l2
20 w bet d2
2 l1
31 l2
3 l3
33 l4 bet d3
15 l1
16 l2
23 l3
25 w bet d3
30 w bet d3
9 l1
13 l2
32 w bet d3
7 l1
2 l2
35 w bet d3
17 l1
32 w bet d3
20 l1
10 l2
4 l3
30 w bet d3
17 l1
6 l2
35 w bet d3
19 l1
25 w bet d3
17 l1
30 w bet d3
14 l1
33 w bet d3
17 l1
31 w bet d3
4 l1
16 l2
13 l3
30 w bet d3
18 l1
1 l2
6 l3
16 l4 bet d2
26 l1
35 l2
13 w bet d2
22 w bet d2
kattila,
what progression are you using?!
vundarosa
Winkels extended fibo......1,1,2,2,3,3,5,5,8,8,13,13,21,21.....
seems good bet selections(the two from above) , but need more tests.
my progression-formula is designed to need NO betselection, except "any".
But for doz it is still too risky, I don´t recommend ist therefore.
br
I think that this very good and "practical" method needs no tweak at all...no triggers no tracking for less hitted DS before...just reset progression to keep bets as smaller as possible and let it ride as long as you want.If you would bot it with a safe bankroll you can make "as much as you want" really.Winkel thanks for this one!!
Quote from: Fripper on Jul 28, 11:06 AM 2011
I tested this for 5000 spins betting the streets. So every stage of the fibo was 11 spins long.
Starting bankroll: 500 units.
Profit : 10747 units
Highest bet 610 units.
Cheers
Is it me or is there a downturn of over 7000 units in this test?
Quote from: birdhands on Aug 22, 07:06 PM 2011
Is it me or is there a downturn of over 7000 units in this test?
Closer to 8500 units actually, but that's the nature of these progressions.
My bad; I missed the part about the 10,000 unit bankroll. Amazing system. One can begin on the BV no zero with a 100 unit bankroll and .01 bets; in 100 hours or so they would hit 1000 units and .10 bets and it all would become exponential from there. Very nice.
I don't get the progression. Just keep going up the Fibonacci prog until you reach your stop-win?
Don't go down at all? Just keep going up - win or lose?
1-1-1-1 2-2-2-2 3-3-3-3 5-5-5-5 8-8-8-8 13-13-13-13 21-21-21-21 34-34-34-34 55-55-55-55
89-89-89-89 and so on so forth...
Thanks in advance for reply.
Quote from: Moxy on Aug 22, 10:20 PM 2011
I don't get the progression. Just keep going up the Fibonacci prog until you reach your stop-win?
Don't go down at all? Just keep going up - win or lose?
1-1-1-1 2-2-2-2 3-3-3-3 5-5-5-5 8-8-8-8 13-13-13-13 21-21-21-21 34-34-34-34 55-55-55-55
89-89-89-89 and so on so forth...
Thanks in advance for reply.
Yup eventually when you win on a progression you gonna be in profit in excess of 200units or more and thats when you stop if you want a 1000units you carry on hence "win as much as you want" maybe you only want 50units and you stop when you there.
Hello Winkel and friends,
Just wanted to ask if you still find that the optimal win limit for DS is 89 units.
Also in your opinion which is the optimal length of the progression.
For example in various tests I performed I found that if I use an 85 steps progression it would lead to great results, while for the sane spins a 80 or 90 length prog would lead to dissaster...
You set some kind of a limit?
My Best Reagrds
If you read through the entire thread you'll see where Winkel tested a lot of bad number sets and came to the conclusion that the optimal win goal per session is +2, meaning start over on the progression as soon as +2 is reached. Also you should have at least a 10k bank, and preferably a 20k bank.
Even so i had sessions with a DS sleeping 40 spins that means you could go deep in the progression.I don't know optimal length for progression but 89 is too short.I personally use 80 steps and so far i am winning more than i am losing.I'll run it with 85 steps on a few thousands spins to see how it does.Well i have the feeling that in the end it's always matter of luck and 5 more steps mean less loses but heavier.
Thanks for the info birdhands, I saw that post of Winkel now!
I guess I have to re-adjust my test parameters though to what Winkel says, because if I understand correctly, after 40 steps he restarts the prog, and continues betting hoping to avoid big gaps between outcomes.
@xxlakis
I used 85 steps prog in my tests with optimal results. If I got to +89units and above I restarted the prog, else kept betting until it busted or won those 89 units.
My Best Regards
Quote from: xxlakis on Aug 27, 01:41 PM 2011
Even so i had sessions with a DS sleeping 40 spins that means you could go deep in the progression.I don't know optimal length for progression but 89 is too short.I personally use 80 steps and so far i am winning more than i am losing.I'll run it with 85 steps on a few thousands spins to see how it does.Well i have the feeling that in the end it's always matter of luck and 5 more steps mean less loses but heavier.
I don't understand exactly what you mean here. Are you saying that you think it is better to go for a win above 89 units before resetting the progression?
Have you busted the progression at 80 steps?
I would certainly be interested in hearing about your testing with 85 steps. I think the key to this whole method is having a huge bankroll and a lot of patience (or a bot).
Quote from: mogwai on Aug 27, 02:47 PM 2011
if I understand correctly, after 40 steps he restarts the prog, and continues betting hoping to avoid big gaps between outcomes.
I didn't see this. I'll look for it. Doesn't make sense to me yet...
We can go 85 steps (actually 17 progression steps, 85 spins) on the progression with a little over 20,000 units (assuming the DS sleeps the full 85 spins). The BV max will let us go over 90; but our bankroll would need to be much bigger...
step bet bankroll
16 987
17 1597 20,810
18 2584 33,730
19 4181 54,635
keep in mind that these bankroll requirements would only be necessary in the extremely unlikely chance of the DS sleeping all the way (80+ spins). Normally we get a hit every now and then, just not enough to get us into profit. So we could play conservatively as well, by resetting the progression once we've hit, not all the way back, just far enough to get us +2 on another hit; this way we can play longer and are more likely to survive the run from hell.
**don't forget the BV max goes much higher than 3000:1, because we can bet the DS and each of the 6 numbers, and the 2 streets, and the 3 splits...this system can be the ultimate grind.
Quote from: birdhands on Aug 27, 05:36 PM 2011
I didn't see this. I'll look for it. Doesn't make sense to me yet...
I can't find what you are referring to here. Can you help me out?
Quote from: birdhands on Aug 27, 05:36 PM 2011
I didn't see this. I'll look for it. Doesn't make sense to me yet...
Forget about that, I misunderstood Winkel's post about permanent restart...
Hi Fripper,
If you don't mind me asking belatedly, which online casino did you play at and are you still winning?
Quote from: Fripper on Apr 19, 12:51 PM 2011
Hi Winkel, thanks for sharing.
Starting with a 5000 unit bank. Choose DS 3
wingoal 55 units
* = highest bet
Session 1 : +66, 36 spins (-65) *21
Session 2 : +237, 54 spins (-564) *89
Session 3 : +72, 36 spins (-33) *21
Session 4 : +64, 29 spins (-40) *8
Session 5 : +58, 34 spins (-86) *13
Session 6 : +160, 45 spins (-183) *34
Session 7 : +91, 52 spins (-430) *89
Session 8 : +64, 23 spins (-7) *5
Session 9 : +60, 32 spins (-56) *13
Session 10 : +352, 56 spins (-635) *144
Session 11 : +46, 56 spins (-674) *144
Session 12 : +90, 32 spins (-2) *13
Session 13 : +85, 31 spins (-20) *13
Session 14 : +58, 19 spins (0) *3
Session 15 : +120, 49 spins (-430) *55
Session 16 : +86, 44 spins (-186) *34
Session 17 : +129, 39 spins (-65) *21
Session 18 : +340, 58 spins (-1100) *144
Session 19 : +50, 44 spins (-120) *34
Session 20 : +180, 68 spins (-1705) *377
Total = +2408 units
Hi Fripper,
If you don't mind me asking belatedly, which online casino did you play at and are you still winning?
Quote from: aleks06 on Apr 21, 10:08 AM 2011
Choose DS 1
wingoal around 50 units
* = highest bet
Bankroll : 5000 units
Session 101 : +66, 32 spins (4958) *13
Session 102 : +54, 25 spins (5000) *5
Session 103 : +65, 33 spins (4986) *13
Session 104 : +52, 26 spins (4977) *8
Session 105 : +129, 54 spins (4417) *89
Session 106 : +48, 28 spins (4989) *8
Session 107 : +54, 28 spins (4980) *8
Session 108 : +321, 54 spins (4431) *89
Session 109 : +56, 47 spins (4781) *55
Session 110 : +58, 26 spins (4986) *8
Session 111 : +370, 56 spins (4383) *144
Session 112 : +65, 33 spins (4945) *13
Session 113 : +54, 28 spins (4998) *8
Session 114 : +84, 36 spins (4966) *21
Session 115 : +56, 27 spins (4979) *8
Session 116 : +48, 32 spins (4964) *13
Session 117 : +98, 32 spins (4957) *13
Session 118 : +61, 31 spins (4964) *13
Session 119 : +45, 22 spins (4995) *5
Session 120 : +91, 48 spins (4596) *55
Total = +1875
Total = +14805
Hi Aleks,
If you don't mind me asking belatedly, which online casino did you play at and are you still winning
Hi Moxy.
I did the test in RX (Roulette Xtreme), I think that aleks06 did it too.
Cheers
Hi All
Would please like to ask a question.Do you continue until in profit or if you have your two hits within six spins on that DS, which has almost recouped all bets placed and almost in profit again, do you rather re-track and not continues to follow that DS? due to maybe not getting another hit and loosing larger amounts.
Regards
Ginnelli
long progressions wont help to beat this game....fibonacci is not recommended progression...up as u win progression..is best of the lot..regression
The Swarm forecast:
Once the players start losing the first 10 ,000 units bankroll , others 10,000 units bankroll , will be lose on a short period of time..... making the amount of loses so high that player if wise....
Will quit before losing all their winnings....then they will restart their quest for a system or quit gambling.
Or Player will lose all his bankrolls making him to face a huge negative balance really hard to recover.
Swarm the wizard
I'VE GOT EXPLOSIVE NEWS IN THE FORM OF NEW STATS!!!!
Fibonacci Numbers
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,1597
Max 1000 Table limit
Max # bets: 15 * 5 = 75
Max 2000 Table limit
Max # bets: 16 * 5 = 80
Max Cold Double Streets in 1,000,000 spins
79!
That means this system should pass the 1 million spin test!!
Is there any way the system can be improved slightly? If we apply it to single streets would the stats fair any better?
Hi Falkor,
It's not just a case of how long the street sleeps, it's how quickly it repeats in order for to get in profit...
What If the street sleeps for another 35 spins....
If my sums are correct after 78 spins you are 12627 units down, a win on the 79th spin means you are still 4882 units down, you want a repeat of the street within the next 5 spins, therefore, you potentially need another level of bets at 2207 per bet if the street doesn't repeat on spin 80.
Regards
Jim
Just read this whole topic.
Quite interesting from a personalities point of view
Winkle was a high wire walker all the way through....a Grand Canyon job....high precision and balance until page 11, where he started to wobble a bit and have doubts. I think he fell off about page 13.
wonder how many people lost a fortune ?
Hi Turner,
I don't see it that way, Winkel advised it was too difficult to bet the 6 DS's at the same time on p11. The changes advised further were to reset when you had a profit to avoid large drawdowns, possibly stop if the DS hasn't shown for 40 spins...I think???
I'm not sure how many people will have played this due to the large BR requirments, any who have and lost fortunes, let's hope it was the casino's money :)
Quote from: JimmieB on Oct 01, 04:03 PM 2014
Hi Turner,
I don't see it that way, Winkel advised it was too difficult to bet the 6 DS's at the same time on p11. The changes advised further were to reset when you had a profit to avoid large drawdowns, possibly stop if the DS hasn't shown for 40 spins...I think???
I'm not sure how many people will have played this due to the large BR requirments, any who have and lost fortunes, let's hope it was the casino's money :)
Interesting to see a few people being blindly dragged along though without doubting it, like Acolytes.
Happened a lot with John Legend
Anyhow...found it interesting
Some things in there worth thinking about.
Absolutely, some interesting stuff worth thinking about, however, as always you need to be cautious.... :)
Balls of steel and a huge BR are required for this, very scary. :ooh:
what i gathered is you pick one double street
bet it with a stretched fibonacci and keep going until you reach your goal?
seems to risky on ONE double street
how about the same money management on 3 double streets?
Hey Rich,
Yes, this is the way it should be played.
On point before I continue, the bet placement is secondary, it's playing the progression which is the key factor, hence the requirement for the large BR and big b***s!!!!
If you are betting on 3 DS, this is now an EC bet, therefore, as you know you are now required to go up a step in the progression each spin, also as you are betting 3 DS's you need treble the stake each spin. Taking this into account, for example, after 10 cycles (10 spins) on the 3 DS's your BR requirement is 696, on the 1 DS after 10 cycles (50 spins) is 1160, less than double the BR for 5 times the spins, although, I appreciate circa 50% of the table now covered compared to 17%....I guess the question is are you more likely to hit 2 of the 3 DS's in a row to return a profit, or, the 1 DS twice within the required amount of spins....???
Also, you are advised early on in this thread, this is a system for just one chip placement, and I believe this is the way it should be played. I initially tried betting 4 streets, or, 2 x DS at the same time, effectively a dozen bet, meaning you are stretching the progression by 2, with double the stake required on the 2 x DS, and 4 times on 4 x streets, doing this can eat into your BR at quite a rate, as could be the case with betting on 3 x DS as above. The thread also initially talked about using this on a single dozen, however, this becomes too expensive, too quickly.
Regards
Jim
Quote from: Turner on Oct 01, 03:48 PM 2014
Just read this whole topic.
Quite interesting from a personalities point of view
Winkle was a high wire walker all the way through....a Grand Canyon job....high precision and balance until page 11, where he started to wobble a bit and have doubts. I think he fell off about page 13.
wonder how many people lost a fortune ?
Any comments about this Winkel? Are you still playing this method?
Quote from: BudskiiHD on Dec 15, 08:28 AM 2014QuoteQuote from: Turner on October 01, 2014, 07:48:04 PM
Just read this whole topic.
Quite interesting from a personalities point of view
Winkle was a high wire walker all the way through....a Grand Canyon job....high precision and balance until page 11, where he started to wobble a bit and have doubts. I think he fell off about page 13.
wonder how many people lost a fortune ?
Any comments about this Winkel? Are you still playing this method?
Why should I comment?
If people start to play all 37 numbers at the same time and lost a fortune, they blame me not their own stupidity.
I always said and I say it again:
You can´t beat that game with 50$/â,¬. You have to know the risc and the probability. I can´t take the risc off of that game I just can put new Input to people.
If you don´t have the money to play, don´t play.
As I have been attacked like this:
Quotewinkel - quit trying to save your public reputation! You already know I posted my test results, so quit playing more games - everyone can see you are playing dumb - it just makes you appear narcissistic. You may feel empty and bored inside sometimes, but it's not fair what you are doing to other people through forums and the game of roulette. Facing your own demons is the only way out of this madness!
I moved from the creators side to the bashers side too.
Falkor is creating rules every five minutes and swearing that it now the winning system beyond all doubts. Rule, rules, more rules that is why its called rule-tte
LOL
Quote from: winkel on Dec 15, 10:48 AM 2014
Rule, rules, more rules that is why its called rule-tte
Now I transferred that basic idea of just playing a progression to single numbers / pleins
It is simply random against random.
First picture: Results of June 2018 research-table-1
(daily results added up day by day for monthly result.)
American progression played up to 35units bet on a single number. (pink line)
American progression played up to 50units bet on a single number. (blue line)
Second picture only for testing and documentation:
American progression played up to 35units bet on a single number started over and over again till end of day or end of random numbers string. blue line sum of daily results. pink spots daily result.
another version:
progression started (target 50units-bet) and stopped at any win no matter if day is in plus.
Also stopped when last bet lost.
Hello.
Out of curiosity, can you tell how are you playing this in just 1 number? What progression? thanks!
Quote from: vladir on Jul 02, 07:36 AM 2018
Hello.
Out of curiosity, can you tell how are you playing this in just 1 number? What progression? thanks!
take any random sequence of e.g. 35 numbers and bet it against the upcoming sequence
progression
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
and so on
AN EXAMPLE OF THE GAME PLEASE
Quote from: zibaanna on Jul 03, 08:45 AM 2018
AN EXAMPLE OF THE GAME PLEASE
Take any random number sequence like one out of the "Real Roulette Spins" area in this forum.
Go to the table.
bet 1 unit on first number of your selected spins.
then bet 2 units on second number
then bet 3 units on third number
shall I go on?
for 36 spins you need a bankroll of 666 units :xd:
Quote from: winkel on Jul 03, 10:40 AM 2018
Take any random number sequence like one out of the "Real Roulette Spins" area in this forum.
Go to the table.
bet 1 unit on first number of your selected spins.
then bet 2 units on second number
then bet 3 units on third number
shall I go on?
for 36 spins you need a bankroll of 666 units :xd:
That's just crazy... It's just betting random numbers with an agressive progression...
Quote from: vladir on Jul 03, 11:53 AM 2018
That's just crazy... It's just betting random numbers with an agressive progression...
but it works
and it works also flatbet, but that is a boring long game
For those who not believe that this works.
Let´s have a battle:
You post here your random sequences up to 50 Numbers. Everybody is welcome.
All sequences are accepted which are posted before 10am ForumTime tommorow morning.
I will check them against Wiesbaden spins Table 5 coming up tommorow starting about 3pm to 3:30pm.
I will show different ways:
American Progression 1 2 3 4 5 ... 50
and flat bet: 50 times 1 unit
and double bet size after 10 spins (steps 1 2 4 8 16)
Stop at win! and Stop at last spin!
Tommorow I´m not at home, so I can check (or you can check by yourself) tommorrow evening! (German time)
Quote from: winkel on Jul 03, 01:22 PM 2018
Stop at win! and Stop at last spin!
Win = break even or new high?
Stop = spin 50 ?
What if after 36 spins you still didn’t hit ?
Will yo go for another 36 spins. ?
As long as there are no sequences to challenge all questions are obsolete
Are you drunk?
Look what i asked you !!!
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Jul 03, 02:37 PM 2018
Are you drunk? YES
Look what i asked you !!!
Second sentence: If you have lost 666 units what will you do? Gamble or be wise?
It is always better to restart the next day.
Hi Winkel!
I would love to know how to win like this flat-bet. Here are my 50 spins -
22, 24, 14, 30, 9, 12, 9, 32, 8, 16, 3, 36, 27, 25, 36, 28, 3, 2, 33, 31, 32, 25, 33, 26, 14, 27, 22, 4, 16, 3
13, 9, 3, 34, 32, 16, 26, 0, 25, 0, 29, 15, 27, 6, 24, 17, 4, 31, 23, 2
(from SuperCasino Live Dealer)
Cheers!
1
30
19
22
27
34
12
16
4
26
32
28
6
20
24
13
30
21
3
32
35
18
9
14
28
10
33
7
16
14
15
35
27
5
10
12
25
23
23
31
2
1
30
17
29
8
6
11
13
1
To limit the house edge as much as possible without having an edge in the selection bet.
The optimal choice of one number will be the last number, the proof that this is a better selection than the random number is that with virtual limits in millions of simulations, with no repeat is max about 350 spins, as we know with random selestion numbers can go over 500 spins.
However, we will not gain the edge playing it flat, we will limit the losses but they will be.
Just as an appetizer:
If we had bet denzie´s sequence against daveylibra´s sequence:
Win in spin 29!
American progression: total bet: 435 win 1044 netwin 609 units
Flatbet: bet 29 win 36 netwin 7 units
double after 10spins: bet 66 units win 144 units net +78 units
your greed tells you which progression to bet and which amount of money you risc.
All other results are effects of your greed! If you wanna win more, you have to risc more, and you have to play longer sequences.
First of all counts your bankroll and if you look at my graphs: It is always possible to lose several time your whole bankrol before you start to win.
Don’t knock it until you have tried it...if you have ever seen William hill lightening roulette the dealer presses the button and 1 to 4 or more random numbers are picked..if you have a bet on them they increase the winnings from 50x to 500x. If they come out...and they do plenty of times..that’s when you start hoping you have actually picked the dealers numbers becouse of hit rate Although the odds are 30/1 on this table..there are many times these or one number on its own is hit..
So try it 1st and see what happens give winkel at least a few test before doubting him
Quote from: daveylibra on Jul 03, 02:53 PM 2018
Hi Winkel!
I would love to know how to win like this flat-bet. Here are my 50 spins -
22, 24, 14, 30, 9, 12, 9, 32, 8, 16, 3, 36, 27, 25, 36, 28, 3, 2, 33, 31, 32, 25, 33, 26, 14, 27, 22, 4, 16, 3
13, 9, 3, 34, 32, 16, 26, 0, 25, 0, 29, 15, 27, 6, 24, 17, 4, 31, 23, 2
(from SuperCasino Live Dealer)
Cheers!
spins of Table 5 Wiesbaden 2018 4th of June
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/04/temp_607193.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/2xd0A)
results:
hit in spin 1 and hit in spin 23
flatbet:
after spin 1 +35
after spin 23 +49
after spin 50 +22
american progression
after spin 1 +35
after spin 23 +588
after spin 50 -411
stepped progression
after spin 1 +35
after spin 23 +138
after spin 50 -130
Denzies spins no hits.
so... with the 1st set (mine) flat-bet, stop at a win, +35
2nd set, (denzies) falt-bet, stop at a win, -50
Net result -15. Not win as much as you want?
Quote from: daveylibra on Jul 04, 02:50 PM 2018
so... with the 1st set (mine) flat-bet, stop at a win, +35
2nd set, (denzies) falt-bet, stop at a win, -50
Net result -15. Not win as much as you want?
How much do you wanna win?
How often do you wanna win?
What amount of chips do you wanna risk?
How much time do you have to get in Plus?
at what level is your greed?
Quote from: ozon on Jul 03, 04:00 PM 2018
To limit the house edge as much as possible without having an edge in the selection bet.
The optimal choice of one number will be the last number, the proof that this is a better selection than the random number is that with virtual limits in millions of simulations, with no repeat is max about 350 spins, as we know with random selestion numbers can go over 500 spins.
However, we will not gain the edge playing it flat, we will limit the losses but they will be.
Hi ozon,
Why should any number hit less than the last number?
Pls tell reason and math behind this!
I do not know math theory, which supports it, but simulations.
Long ago, The General threw Kav forum analyzes the extent to which the number playing the last repetition, if this reduces the house edge.
But all the time I writes that it does not cause our advantage.
This is evidenced by extreme situations in simulations, if relaxation did not occur, series without repetition would not be shorter.
I had somewhere RX code even to play the last number with different progressions, they lost less, but always.
Quote from: daveylibra on Jul 04, 02:50 PM 2018
so... with the 1st set (mine) flat-bet, stop at a win, +35
2nd set, (denzies) falt-bet, stop at a win, -50
Net result -15. Not win as much as you want?
The question is how to resume.
Either daveylibra or denzie.
1. daveylibra: Restart with the new numbers collect in yesterdays game
2. denzie: same numbers as tried yesterday + new numbers from yesterday
It doesn´t matter if we start at the same table or choose a new table.
let´s try this:
both start a new game at table 3 of Wiesbaden today
and additional
we start also a game at table 5 of Wiesbaden.
Quote from: ozon on Jul 04, 07:42 PM 2018
I do not know math theory, which supports it, but simulations.
Long ago, The General threw Kav forum analyzes the extent to which the number playing the last repetition, if this reduces the house edge.
But all the time I writes that it does not cause our advantage.
This is evidenced by extreme situations in simulations, if relaxation did not occur, series without repetition would not be shorter.
I had somewhere RX code even to play the last number with different progressions, they lost less, but always.
The math is easy:
To hit with a random number at any spin is 1:37
to hit with a random number after a specific number is 1:1369
(it is the same to bet 36 after 36 as to bet 17 after 13 as to bet any number after any number)
Quote from: ozon on Jul 04, 07:42 PM 2018
I do not know math theory, which supports it, but simulations.
Long ago, The General threw Kav forum analyzes the extent to which the number playing the last repetition, if this reduces the house edge.
But all the time I writes that it does not cause our advantage.
This is evidenced by extreme situations in simulations, if relaxation did not occur, series without repetition would not be shorter.
I had somewhere RX code even to play the last number with different progressions, they lost less, but always.
I have simulated this. Losing streaks are shorter when playing the last, it misses max of around 350 spins. In my simulations, a number could sleep for around 700 spins. But still there is no progression that survives 350 spins.
Quote from: vladir on Jul 05, 06:44 AM 2018
In my simulations, a number could sleep for around 700 spins.
I hope you noticed that this doesn´t bet any particular single number but bets every spin any other number.
And:
We don´t play a plein-system we just bet a progression on plein-chance
let´s have a look at today´s results:
(I only give results for american progression
denzie´s numbers at table 3:
1. hit spin 14 result +399
2. hit spin 34 result +1133
3. hit spin 36 result +2358
at spin 50 : +1784
denzie´s numbers at table 5:
1. hit spin 15 result +420
2. hit spin 33 result +1167
at spin 50 +453
(Yesterdays losses: 1275)
It is not necessarily so that numbers hit next day when they have lost the day befor. So your wins always depend on your greed and courage!
daveylibra:
numbers from table 5 yesterday vs. table 5 today:
1. hit at spin 49 result +539
at spin 50 +489
numbers from table 5 yesterday vs. table 3 today:
no hits loss -1275
daveylibra numbers against table 5 today:
1. hit spin 22 +539
2. hit spin 25 +1367
3. hit spin 45 +2277
at spin 50 +2037
hope I didn´t mix up. I´ll have a check
Quote from: winkel on Jul 05, 06:59 AM 2018
I hope you noticed that this doesn´t bet any particular single number but bets every spin any other number.
And:
We don´t play a plein-system we just bet a progression on plein-chance
Winkel, can you share how you determined those random “any other number†selections for the sessions from Denzie,, etc ...
Thank you.
I reread your posts and now understand what you are doing. Thanks.
Some of you think this way to bet is to risky.
Now here is another Variation to bet single numbers/Plein with a selected progression.
With this we don´t progress the value of the bet, we make a degression.
First make a plan of the distance you wanna play, 20, 30, 100 , 500 spins.
Then make a sequence length.
e.g.
I wanna play 72 spins that´s about 2hrs at the table.
a suitable sequence length could be any divisor of 72, but not too low and not to high.
This would say: 6 9 12 18 is quite good.
The betting plan:
collect a sequence according to your sequnce length
then bet this sequence to be repeated.
In the second step, bet the first sequence and the second new sequence
in the third step bet the first, second an third sequence.
as an example I will take denzie´s spins with length of 6:
collect first sequence:
1
30
19
22
27
34
next bet 1 to be repeated and note new number (and so on)
01..12
30..16
19..04
22..26
27..32
34..28
now bet 01 and 12 in the third sequence and note new number
01..12..06
30..16..20
19..04..24
22..26..13
27..32..30
34..28..21
now bet 01 and 12 and 06 in the 4th sequence and note new number
01..12..06..03
30..16..20..32
19..04..24..35
22..26..13..18
27..32..30..09
34..28..21..14
now bet 01 and 12 and 06 and 03 in the 5th sequence and note new number
01..12..06..03..28
30..16..20..32..10
19..04..24..35..33
22..26..13..18..07
27..32..30..09..16
34..28..21..14..14 (and win)
now bet 01 and 12 and 06 and 03 and 28 in the 6th sequence and note new number
01..12..06..03..28..15
30..16..20..32..10..35
19..04..24..35..33..27
22..26..13..18..07..05
27..32..30..09..16..10
34..28..21..14..14 ..12
now bet 01 and 12 and 06 and 03 and 28 and 15 in the 7th sequence and note new number
01..12..06..03..28..15..25
30..16..20..32..10..35..23
19..04..24..35..33..27..23
22..26..13..18..07..05..31
27..32..30..09..16..10..02
34..28..21..14..14 ..12..01
and so on.
calculation:
1st betting sequence 6 units
2nd betting sequence 12 units (18 total)
3rd betting sequence 18 units (36 total) at your own choice: increase units per bet or stay flat bet size
4th betting sequence 24 units (60 total)
Pls choose a sequence length which is suitable for you.
6 is quite too short.
9 would be better
12 is nice
24 is recommended
36 is best
Title is very provocative and misleading and so seems the method. Just one question, is this different from randomly choosing numbers?
Quote from: Tinsoldiers on Jul 07, 02:36 PM 2018
Title is very provocative and misleading and so seems the method. Just one question, is this different from randomly choosing numbers?
if you read the previous 18 pages you will find, that the title is provocative but not misleading.
And it is not a method it is a think tank.
So if you read the last examples you will also find that it is still rancom vs. random.
With every method it is the same. people think you can win always from now on. What them makes lose is always their greed or a redicolous smal bankroll.
As I always said: If you don´t have the money to survive some losses, don´t play roulette
:-[In all frankness, one of the best threads, ever ..
Gotta work on it to perfect it .. (waay underdeveloped with huuge potential);
but all the fundamentals are just correct.
A first draft for DS
Will run a macro a gather stats on max prog step, lowest BR, etc.
Fundamentals
• not relying on bs to win (not a bs-centric system)
• play the progression
Underdeveloped
• waay to high bankroll (for compounding effect base unit increase efficacy)
• betting waay to much for an individual game to resolve in positive (cost-effectiveness)
• waay too step exposition increase rate
To perfect
• first-off, using more discrits or compartments
• nominal individual game profit (bet what the game asks to profit)
-- "what's the optimal bet/layout with the highest possible probability = coverage,
the lowest cost (payout) in regard to, or versus, the exposition"
-- at ±0 the best or most optimal bet,
regarding the cost vs coverage vs number of positions is EC
-- or 3EC as the initial bet, with a perk of hitting big
• thereof, controlled descent (lowest possible exposition at any point in time)
• thereof, controlled volatility (self-created)
• thereof, the lowest exposition increase rate
• thereof, recoverable drawdowns (requiring the shortest turns of variance in favor, to profit)
• alternating the coverage = the most cost-effective traversing of out-of-favor variance
(wider for the first hit, focused for the successive hit)
• leveraging 1st or wide hit gains with the lower coverage second hit
-- reinvesting the gains at a lower cost = fewer position(s) = one, potentially at a higher payout too
-- focused blocks of limited amount of spins, contingent on the amount of the gains itself
(once returning to the same exposition amount before the first hit, or slightly exceeding,
switch back to wide again till the next hit .. & again the same ..
• the number of spins constituting the wide & focused block ratio
• vertical progression (vp) ratio between wide & focused
-- delay wide vp increase as far as possible (=controlled descent)
-- rather 'push' on those few/several focused spins, & with the gains made
-- take into the account on focused: fewer positions played, payout, exposition
(adjust focused vp, including the three above, in the most cost-effective way
on each spin of the focused block, on what the game asks to profit basis)
• use of the divisor = more hits to handle the oustanding debt, or finish with positive
(capping of the max vp max)
thereof in the worst out-of-favor variance or the most extreme games
-- ensuring controlled descent & recoverable drawdowns no matter what
-- ensuring the oustanding debt resolution & profit no matter, what!
That's condensed 1.5 yrs of work/roulette research, from basically knowing nothing about roulette.
With all that stated concisely, & with an added bonus of previous experience, you can make that time interval a lot sooner/shorter.
This thread is 11 years old but pops up from time to time.
Pls note that I have prolonged the Fibonacci depending on the chance to bet.
The only facts that have come up are these:
You have to know how long the chance you are betting can sleep
You have to know how long the longest repeater-lines are.
You have to know how to detect you are riding a dead horse.
Quote from: winkel on Jun 07, 04:50 PM 2022
This thread is 11 years old but pops up from time to time.
Pls note that I have prolonged the Fibonacci depending on the chance to bet.
The only facts that have come up are these:
You have to know how long the chance you are betting can sleep
You have to know how long the longest repeater-lines are.
You have to know how to detect you are riding a dead horse.
after 11 years did you found answer how long it can sleep and is 65 still the best way to enter with 5000 bankroll. Are you still winning
Yes its all realitive % wise