My wife loves to play the slots, either at the Casino or on line. When playing on line, she always seems to win in the “Demo†or Free Mode but not in the Real Money Mode. We figured out that the on line Casinos lure us into playing for Real Money by allowing us to win in the Demo mode.
But what about Roulette? Especially Bet Voyager No Zero (BVNZ)? Do they also allow you to win in the Demo mode to entice you to play for Real Money as well?
I decided to check it out and a big thanks to Superman for assisting in testing the Real Money mode and to Bayes for posting 200M actual BVNZ spins.
For both the Demo and Real Money Mode, I tested the same bet for 78 sessions of 1000 spins each (78,000 total spins). The 78 sessions are shown in the attached spreadsheet.
If the Demo and Real Money Mode were the same, the results should be similar within a reasonable margin of error. The overall results are:
Demo Mode
Units Won:-----7,570
Win %:-----------86%
Average Win:-----97
Real Money Mode
Units Won:-----1,276
Win%:------------53%
Average Win:-----16
You can draw your own conclusions, but I for one, will not be using any Casino's Demo mode for future testing.
Great topic Nickmsi. I've also found it true with "Live" dealer (where you see a person spinning the wheel or dealing cards) online games--that there is a significant difference between the fun play and the real money play.
Nickmsi,
The Betvoyager Spins thread by Bayes either contains a typo created by accident some how or shows blatant proof of manipulation. These 212,000 BV spins have the number 4 repeat 20 times and should not be used for testing. Normy2000 made this incredible observation. I don't know which BV spins you used. It might also be wise for us to first see what the stats are of the spins we are going to use. It could be easy for a casino to put 1 or 2 impossible sequences in them so that any tests will not be accurate.
link:://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=919.0 (link:://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=919.0)
I wouldn't put it past them........
Quote from: Proofreaders2000 on Jan 17, 10:48 AM 2012
Great topic Nickmsi. I've also found it true with "Live" dealer (where you see a person spinning the wheel or dealing cards) online games--that there is a significant difference between the fun play and the real money play.
Can you provide any data on this "live" dealer phenomena?
I understand the RNG problem and it has been reasonably well documented but on a "live" table, I'd still be suspect of data manipulation by the casino.
The basic question would be, HOW?
AD
Hello ADulay,
If a casino releases live spins it is in a file format. Just add a 1 impossible sequence some where in the 50,000+ spins. Would be hard to find and is not illegal.
Sorry if this might seem a little overboard but interesting to discuss.
What is a fact is the number 4 repeated 20 time in the BV spin data. How it got there and how many times this has occurred in other spin data is the question.
Quote from: amk on Jan 17, 11:40 AM 2012
What is a fact is the number 4 repeated 20 time in the BV spin data. How it got there and how many times this has occurred in other spin data is the question.
Hi amk,
Funny you should mention this, because I was just about to post a plot of that data, showing the results if you had been betting the same as the last number. I always thought there was something fishy about those spins (I didn't get them myself but from another forum), because the result showed a significant edge, which shouldn't have been possible over such a large number of spins.
Actually, it's ambiguous what you're saying about the number 4 repeating - do you mean there were 20 separate occasions when it repeated once?, or a streak of 20 number 4's in a row?!
Yes, AMK, you are correct if the spin data is corrupted then my testing is null and void.
Bayes, I checked the spin data and there is a run of 20 consecutive 4's, it's about midway through the data, page 1682 if you used word or notepad to load it.
Yes, I see now. :(
Sorry you wasted your time using invalid spins.
ok here it is...say we have 3 sets of 100 random roulette spins then we get every set of 100 spins and divide it in smaller sets of 10 numbers,then we mix them up and build up new 3 sets of 100 numbers. where does not matter which set of 10 belongs to what set of 100 numbers..so having our new 3sets of 100 numbers question is...are new 3 sets of 100 numbers also random roulette samples??? thank you
p.s i did asked it but wanted to ask again sorry just my old brain
@ Nickmsi,
I can get you some real mode spins from BV if you want to do another test. These will be uncorrupted. :xd:
Actually, you can thank superman and his bot. :)
Quote from: maestro on Jan 17, 01:38 PM 2012
ok here it is...say we have 3 sets of 100 random roulette spins then we get every set of 100 spins and divide it in smaller sets of 10 numbers,then we mix them up and build up new 3 sets of 100 numbers. where does not matter which set of 10 belongs to what set of 100 numbers..so having our new 3sets of 100 numbers question is...are new 3 sets of 100 numbers also random roulette samples??? thank you
p.s i did asked it but wanted to ask again sorry just my old brain
I would say YES, as long as the numbers are selected randomly and thoroughly "shuffled".
Yes, Bayes, would love some actual BVNZ spins from Superman. He can email them direct to me or post them. Thanks. Nick
ok guys, Bayes already has a load, he can put them up here if he wants, I will do a few 1000 spin sessions tomorrow in real money mode and put them up here.
EDIT: on some of them ignore the last 3 or 4 spins, you will see a few repeats, not sure how or why it happened, just check the ends of each file before using them. The ones I do tomorrow will not have that issue.
OK heres the 1st 1001 run, image shows what happened and how often, Real Money mode
Quote from: amk on Jan 17, 11:40 AM 2012
Hello ADulay,
If a casino releases live spins it is in a file format. Just add a 1 impossible sequence some where in the 50,000+ spins. Would be hard to find and is not illegal.
No, I was talking about real time "live" play and not transcribed live play.
Proofreader says that the "live" play can be altered and I was asking if there was any documentation on how they do it. At the two online casinos I use, "Live" play is used for both practice and real money play at the same time. How would the "live" play be skewed then and for what reason?
Anything that gets transcribed or can be edited will always be suspect, of course.
Thanks.
AD
2nd set
ps, the last 2 numbers in the previous file (2 posts up) are wrong, it ends on the 1st 26, the repeats were becaused I opened another software up over the game window so it re read the last number more than it should have, sorry. Will do a few more tomorrow.
If it can help, here are some sessions collected by myself at BV NZ. (you can trust at 100%) :thumbsup:
Thanks Normy2000. They are much appreciated. Nick
Demo will let you win. Now that has been established. But regardless of your bet, real money play should eventually get you down back to zero with bankroll still intact of course.
I am assuming that you would expect your overall win/loss to be at or close to a push since there's no edge right?
Let's take a look:
session win pct: 53%
Well what did you expect?! Half of your sessions are winners - half losers; it's a 50/50 game so the session win pct. is pretty much on cue.
average session win: $16
That's an average of 533 units won per session of 1000 spins! Are you kidding?!The other anomaly is the 61% ROI. I assume you wagered every spin with a bet of .03 c to get an aggregate wager of $2310 in 78,000 - spins which I will interpret as 78,000 units wagered consisting of .03 c each. You won $1,398. Divide that by .03 c to get a take of 46,600 units won. If you are hinting at the fact that your being cheated out of more winnings, if anything, your actually winning an exorbitant amount of units let alone the demo. The demo is a complete fraud if you ask me.
And if your point is to say that BV real money play is rigged against you, your evidence contrarily backfired on you.
I agree, Moxy. The results tend to look like you would expect from real money play.
When Norman2000 pointed out there were 20 consecutive 4's in the spin data that I used, it raised the specter of possible corrupted data.
The OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and NCIS in me says to do the test again, with an uncorrupted data file, just to be sure.
It is probably futile to do it again, but it only takes about 45 minutes or so to test the 78,000 spins.
Nick
Wait what?
I thought you played the demo and real money play in real time on their software with their RNG output. I can only imagine how tedious 78,000 spins for both demo and real money though.
Yes, Moxy, I played the Demo in Real Time, 1000 Auto spins at a time, but I could load 20 Demo Auto modes at one time and it took about an hour to do the 20,000 spins and I ran it on another computer that was not being used.
I also had the money mode done in real time by Superman as we in the USA cannot use BV.
When I found out about the actual spins from Bayes, I could then test it much faster in Excel.
Hopefully, the BVNZ data from Superman and Norman2000 will be uncorrupted and enough to finalize this test and put it to bed.
Nick
The difference with BV, as compared to other OCs, is that they have randomness control, and this is available in both demo and fun modes. I've never done such a test, but I HAVE lost bankrolls in demo mode before, I've also had some extremely good runs when playing with real money.
In spite of the hash function, I don't deny the possibility that they can discover your pattern of betting and throw up spins to make you lose (or win), but I do find it rather implausible that they would go to such lengths, which don't guarantee that they'll win (all you need to do is mix up your bets in order to make them unpredictable).
However, it will be an interesting test, although one test by one person won't be conclusive.
@Bayes..hi mate do you know if BV has option where we can get 37 spins generated when we play real instead of only 10 spins at the time...thanks
Quotedo you know if BV has option where we can get 37 spins generated when we play real instead of only 10 spins at the time
Yes, you can generate as many as you want, I just tried 20, 30, 36, 37, 50 and it allowed it, 60 is max length, see attached image
thanks superman...is it a option there or just click over end enter desired spin amount... :thumbsup:
Quoteis it a option there or just click over end enter desired spin amount
Not exactly sure what you mean, the action you take is end the current set and enter a number between 1 and 60 of your choice.
say i start play real money all i see when i play is 10 noumbers generated as i play numbers going from 10 to 1 and it gives me new 10 number secuence in this little box above which you did show on above post..question is before i start play can i set it to 37 numbers and every time 37 numbers secuence finish new 37 block generates...thanks
@superman,thanks mate i just see what you meant..yes i can change it up to 60 and one more silly question what is other box next to it shift goes from 1 to 35 what does it do...thanks :-[ :-[ :thumbsup:
Quotewhat is other box next to it shift goes from 1 to 35 what does it do
It shifts up, lets say they gave you
1,7,27,15,36
and you select shift 3, the numbers you would get would be
3,10,30,18,3
thank you very much.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
So, the conclusion of this threat is that demo mode actually let's you win? (to get you in with real money)
Is this certain software? I mean e.g. also playtech software?
Thanks