This thread comes in response to: LIFETIME EVENT! (link:://rouletteforum.cc/roulette-and-gambling-framework/lifetime-event!!!/) where they debate on the possibility of a cheating RNG casino.
First let me tell you I'm pointing at the following case of RNG casino software openly cheating on players because it is properly documented, not merely anecdotal or based on a losing streak.
For full understanding you have to remember an online casino operation may be run by one company and their software provider by another different company. They (RNG software providers) have sales pages aimed at casino owners, which are their clients, and for which the words "profits" and "winnings" directly translate to players losing.
The documented cheating software is :.start-your-casino.com/.
(still in continued operation as of today)
When their cheat was exposed by major pages such as the WizardOfOdds and CasinoMeister they changed their texts and secured the casino admin demo pages, but thanks to the internet archive you can still see the original pages, serving to document the cheat.
At the time of their "information slip", this is what the front-page of the sales page displays:
- In there you can see the hint of being able to modify payouts/profits for the games:
[attachimg=#]
Verification URL: link:://web.archive.org/web/20040622061119/link:://:.start-your-casino.com/ (link:://web.archive.org/web/20040622061119/link:://:.start-your-casino.com/)
- Blatantly and openly boasting about their cheat to entice casino owners!!!:
[attachimg=#]
Verification URL: link:://web.archive.org/web/20040622061119/link:://:.start-your-casino.com/ (link:://web.archive.org/web/20040622061119/link:://:.start-your-casino.com/)
Also their F.A.Q. describes the calculation of a "coefficient" which limits players' ability to win (hence being offered an unfair cheating game):
[attachimg=#]
Verification URL: link:://web.archive.org/web/20040622021517/:.xlpay.com/casino/?a=faq (link:://web.archive.org/web/20040622021517/:.xlpay.com/casino/?a=faq)
They used to list casinos being powered by their cheating software:
[attachimg=#]
Verification URL (scroll to bottom): link:://web.archive.org/web/20040804034724/link:://:.start-your-casino.com/ (link:://web.archive.org/web/20040804034724/link:://:.start-your-casino.com/)
But obviously listing their powered casinos along with the player cheating limit right above the casino banner didn't make them any good.
In fact, it was picked by the aforementioned pages, i.e. CasinoMeister to advice players right away and issue a rogue software warning against them, as seen in their newsletter:
[attachimg=#]
Verification URL: link:://:.casinomeister.com/newsletter/2004/16sept2004.html#new (link:://:.casinomeister.com/newsletter/2004/16sept2004.html#new)
Yes, they have a cashout button in their admin panel where casino owners can withdraw their fixed % of won money, even prior to players' wagers:
[attachimg=#]
And it looks like this:
[attachimg=#]
Verification URL: link:://web.archive.org/web/20040717104720/link:://:.xlpay.com/casino/casino/admin/?a=cashout (link:://web.archive.org/web/20040717104720/link:://:.xlpay.com/casino/casino/admin/?a=cashout)
Once again, relying on such "Winning coefficient" as a base for calculations for that's their lock-in profit for them to take since the cheating RNG software ensures there is no way for players to alter their fixed profit amount (hence they can cashout right away) since it will prevent the possibility of players winning any of it due to the otherwise normal fluctuations of the game!
Well, there you go. A documented RNG casino software that cheats, which means there currently ARE cheating casinos silently being operated by this documented cheating software, but obviously they learned their lessons and aren't disclosing their powered casinos anymore.
So for those who scrap the possibility of a cheating RNG casino in operation, allow me to remind in most parts of the globe online gambling is unregulated and open to RNG casinos cheating the cr4p out of their users without any punishment at all.
Does it suck? YEAH. Do you think they are the only RNG casino software provider offering a "controlled wins" proposition to their clients (casino owners) to keep them happy and recurring in payments?... I leave that to your consideration.
WOW!
OK, I'm convinced. That pretty much sums up what I thought might be available to the online community of casinos for their RNG games.
Even if most of the RNG games are "on the level" the point is it CAN be manipulated quite easily and when it comes down to the bottom line, the casino WILL make a profit.
Thanks for posting that up.
I still can't believe anyone even thinks about playing RNG anything online!!
AD
There is account of another casino linked to this group (H.I.G -high income group- Casino):
[attachimg=#]
Verification URL: link:://web.archive.org/web/20050326123231/link:://:.wizardofodds.com/blacklist (link:://web.archive.org/web/20050326123231/link:://:.wizardofodds.com/blacklist)
By now they already shut down the domains publicly linked to them and the rigged RNG software continues to operate and take new (casino) clients, as if nothing happened.
i still think Betvoyager is OK (at least for small bets)
I think Thomas plays mostly RNG and has won substantial amounts.
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 07, 09:08 PM 2010
I still think Betvoyager is OK (at least for small bets)
There are fair casinos, there are rigged casinos.
Thing is some people have a hard time even thinking a casino can cheat them (as if casinos didn't dispose of the technological means for doing it already). I hope the knowledge of documented and active rigged software operating right now, cheating players' money as you read, may awake some regarding this also being part of internet's reality.
Ive seen too many ppl lose it all on RNG
Its all over the Net, I wonder why ?
No, infact I dont anymore. Victor has shown us Proof Positive that RNG *can* be rigged
YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IF THE RNG YOU ARE PLAYING IS RIGGED !
Dear all,
I always told and believed that any RNG casino can manipulate winnings because a single number is generated for a single player and who else can calculate faster than a software, whether to let someone win or not and how much. I have seen many casino openly boasts of 98% or something like this cashouts, if they can ensure the percentage of payouts, everything is calculated. In such case, only a crazy fellow would think of playing RNG roulette. Roulette is not in the nature of slots and game of little more intelligent people. Why do we take risk of our money to maintain their payouts. Open roulette69.com and you will find on the top of your browser "roulette69.com the 98.63% payout casino licensed in the EU". Are we being sucked and used? In such case, no system, method or bot can help you win. I WILL NEVER PLAY ANY RNG TILL I BE SATISFIED OF ITS FAIRNESS.
I wouldn't dream of playing at an online casino which isn't licensed and regulated, and it baffles me that some seem to do no research whatsoever before handing over their hard-earned, but then, Nigerian email scammers also get "hits". :o
In the end you're responsible for your own decisions. I like BV because of its no-zero wheel and (true for OCs in general) because you get higher spin rates. If there was a real wheel offering the same advantages I would use it (pretty unlikely to happen).
What I will say, though, is that because of confirmation bias (link:://rouletteforum.cc/math-reference/confirmation-bias/), if you harbour any doubts about the honesty of a casino, you're likely to interpret losses and "unusual" events as "proof" of cheating, when that isn't necessarily the case.
I got your point Bayes but I would never be able to fully trust any RNG. I myself won regularly on some RNGs but have lost in most unusual manners also, which created reasonable doubts in my mind. Do you know any RNG casino who has lost on payouts in any quarter?
Quote from: Bayes on Oct 08, 04:18 AM 2010
In the end you're responsible for your own decisions. I like BV because of its no-zero wheel and (true for OCs in general) because you get higher spin rates. If there was a real wheel offering the same advantages I would use it (pretty unlikely to happen).
Bayes, you are very intelligent. Why do you think that is ?
BV has very good reputation overall with players. I know some people which were able to win big money on it playing some patterns for some time. With playtech RNG it is usually all the way around. BV also has kinda open algorithm of randomness everyone can see and even change sequence of it. No other casino i know of can offer something like this. So far i trust betvoyager.
"So far I trust betvoyager. "
[A serious case of misplaced trust, iggiv. Still, it's your money.]
No zero means no 2.whatever-it-is-% edge.
So how do you think they make a profit overall? By running a fair game? Yeah -- right.
My recent experience with BV (documented elsewhere on the forum) clearly shows manipulation.
Like you, I thought they might be OK.
Unlike you, I now realise they're not.
Quote from: Twisteruk on Oct 08, 04:25 AM 2010
Bayes, you are very intelligent. Why do you think that is ?
Good genes? ;D
"pretty unlikely to happen"I'm guessing because software is so much cheaper, and perhaps, easier to rip you off, but I personally haven't seen any evidence of that.
Quote from: esoito on Oct 08, 08:11 AM 2010
So how do you think they make a profit overall? By running a fair game? Yeah -- right.
They would still make money because they have a much larger bankroll than any individual player. The player with the biggest bank always wins - no house edge is necessary. Some players will win consistently, but have you ever seen how MOST punters play in a casino?
I'm not trying to plug BV, if the time ever comes when I feel like I'm being cheated, I'll leave.
Well, I definitely WAS cheated, Bayes!
So now I've left BV -- for good.
Anyone know of a reputable live, online game with very low chips? Makes live testing more economic.
Quote from: Bayes on Oct 08, 08:21 AM 2010
Good genes? ;D
"pretty unlikely to happen"
I'm guessing because software is so much cheaper, and perhaps, easier to rip you off, but I personally haven't seen any evidence of that.
HA HA !
I wondered if you would make that Joke lol :)
Quote from: esoito on Oct 08, 08:34 AM 2010
Well, I definitely WAS cheated, Bayes!
So now I've left BV -- for good.
Anyone know of a reputable live, online game with very low chips? Makes live testing more economic.
Where are you based ?
Quote from: esoito on Oct 08, 08:34 AM 2010
Anyone know of a reputable live, online game with very low chips? Makes live testing more economic.
Igal/Iggiv mentioned he still has old versions of some casinos' software which have $0.01 (cent) chip for live roulette. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Bayes on Oct 08, 08:29 AM 2010
I'm not trying to plug BV, if the time ever comes when I feel like I'm being cheated, I'll leave.
Bayes, how would you know
What is your personal criteria for this instance ?
As you said before, the odd number here and there being manipulated is almost undetectable....
Quote from: VLS on Oct 08, 09:15 AM 2010
Igal/Iggiv mentioned he still has old versions of some casinos' software which have $0.01 (cent) chip for live roulette. :thumbsup:
Sorry, you've completely lost me!
Please clarify. (Not just for me but for others who come after)
How would I use that with live roulette at, say, William Hill?
Quote from: esoito on Oct 08, 08:34 AM 2010
Well, I definitely WAS cheated, Bayes!
So now I've left BV -- for good.
Anyone know of a reputable live, online game with very low chips? Makes live testing more economic.
joyland, william hill, vegas sky and a few others must have 10 c live roulette. those are playtech, but the wheel is real
<<I have seen many casino openly boasts of 98% or something like this cashouts, if they can ensure the percentage of payouts, everything is calculated.>>
Abalaha said this earlier on in the thread..very good point well made..
Victor posted this proof earlier and I always wandered that even after playing with utmost care why we lose in RNGs while playing big. Conclusion: RNG is tailor made to set the percentage of winning and losses, be it roulette or slots. No amount of technique can help when they know how to keep their profits intact. Anybody can be victimised, whether he plays better or worse.
Quote from: Twisteruk on Oct 08, 11:55 AM 2010
Bayes, how would you know
What is your personal criteria for this instance ?
As you said before, the odd number here and there being manipulated is almost undetectable....
Twister, to be honest, I don't really have a criteria, other than continually losing. :)
I certainly don't win every session, but I haven't seen anything playing in real mode which I don't see in fun mode. Also, BV has something unique - randomness control - which guarantees that the sequence of outcomes is not manipulated, ie; that it won't change depending on your stake. This is because the outcome is actually generated BEFORE you place a bet, and the purpose of the checksum is to confirm it.
Quote from: Bayes on Oct 09, 03:39 AM 2010
Twister, to be honest, I don't really have a criteria, other than continually losing. :)
I certainly don't win every session, but I haven't seen anything playing in real mode which I don't see in fun mode. Also, BV has something unique - randomness control - which guarantees that the sequence of outcomes is not manipulated, ie; that it won't change depending on your stake. This is because the outcome is actually generated BEFORE you place a bet, and the purpose of the checksum is to confirm it.
Thanx Bayes, I just wondered what your take on it was :)
Do you prefer RNG or Real Wheel out of interest ?
A REAL casino for me....or nothing!! If you do not live close to one, you dont play. Yes, it does suck. Ken
Quote from: esoito on Oct 08, 08:04 PM 2010
Dahnunder.
Smartlive Casino is 0.25p for inside and doz/col but Ã,£1 for EC
I dont know of any others that are lower for LIVE Wheel's
Unless someone else does ?
Quote from: Twisteruk on Oct 09, 01:04 PM 2010
Smartlive Casino is 0.25p for inside and doz/col but Ã,£1 for EC
I don't know of any others that are lower for LIVE Wheel's
Unless someone else does ?
some playtech casinos like vegas sky, joyland, william hill, eurogrand. they have now a minimum stake and a chip for 10 c, but with their old software downloaded a while ago u can have minimum of 10 with 1 c chip, which means u can play even 1 c by putting also 3 c to each dozen
Thanks for that Victor. RNGs are indeed slot machines with roulette/blackjack,etc. animations!
Be careful of some of these "Live" wheels also---some of those are "movies" of a dealer spinning, dealing cards--while the RNG gives you results in the background.
Quote from: Proofreaders2000 on Oct 10, 12:19 AM 2010
Thanks for that Victor. RNGs are indeed slot machines with roulette/blackjack,etc. animations!
Be careful of some of these "Live" wheels also---some of those are "movies" of a dealer spinning, dealing cards--while the RNG gives you results in the background.
Oooo...ouch... Talk about dirty tricks. That's appalling.
What are some of the signs/indications we can look out for when we think we're playing 'live' but it's actually not?
ask a dealer to wave a hand. or get into conversation (if there is a chat window). i know for sure playtech live wheel in Riga is real
Quote from: esoito on Oct 10, 01:25 AM 2010
Oooo...ouch... Talk about dirty tricks. That's appalling.
What are some of the signs/indications we can look out for when we think we're playing 'live' but it's actually not?
Smartlive Casino and Roulette nation both go out live on SKY TV at the same time as on the net, there is about a 3 second lag btwn them
Also Paddy Power is SO live its unreal, you can chat to those beautiful ladies from Latvia all night
Dublinbet is a REAL Casino and they send the feed via the net. When the dealer from angle 1 puts her hand into the wheel to collect the ball, at the SAME TIME on angle 2 her hand appears at the same time.
I really dont think these Casino's need to cheat
Ive never once used a LIVE WHEEL and thought something was not right
Ive heard Ladbrokes is a good one too :)
I'd like to add a caveat to the list (growing) of bad RN G's (On line Casino)
Platform-- Playtech
Name --EuroGrand casino
The software actually follows Ur bets according to Ur strategy, and changes its returning spin in response.
i did a test last night, Real money Account, my real money- no bonuses.
Lost on both types of tables, Bet stack 0.10/15units ...... and 1.00/50units.
I was using bout five different systems i have, and at first i took a start balance of Ã,£20 thro to Ã,£93.00
(I know, i know, should have quit then!! Don't need anyone to tell me that, but i was doing a test)
As i progressed, i could actually watch (in some fascination), as the software learn my betting system, and returns spins that it knew would take my Br out!!
Was a very interesting experience. Never again there!!
Joyjand casino(Live) is ok. You can chat to the croupiers there ... And once or twice I saw Vic there too !
Quote from: Blood Angel on Oct 10, 11:45 AM 2010
... And once or twice I saw Vic there too !
ahaha indeed!
Yes, no doubt their dealers are live.
check out the dealers from Paddy Power !
If you like a pretty lady (they all from latvia) go check em out !
join but dont deposit and you can still chat with them :)
Where do u play TW??
Oh the usual places really
Ladbrokes
Paddy Power
Dublinbet
ChallengeJackpot
Smartlive Casino
What about you ?
Thanx for that.
Im so NEWBIE, that last night was my first real money spin.
Been playing for fun and with free casino money for bout 6 weeks or so.
onlyjust got into Roulette in July, and that was by accident!!
im fasinated by it.
Have u seen my early ideas about how the movements on a board/green table that are produced by so-called RNG's, could be the resultant outcome of either a dance/steps sequence, or (and i like this idea the most), be the result of a song/ tune played out.
as tho the 39 or nine zones/matrix are a cord table of some sort, all we have to do is figure out the song they are singing/dancing.
Easy eh!!??!! :(
I think it could be a CLIFF RICHARD song myself!!!!!!! :xd:
Quote from: chrisbis on Oct 10, 01:17 PM 2010
I think it could be a CLIFF RICHARD song myself!!!!!!! :xd:
Lets hope not eh! ;D
;)
well perhaps with SLIPkNOT overtones and cracking baseline!!
Bet it turns out to be based on classical music.................. :'(
Its at time like this, (and at other times), (well at all times really!!), i wonder just how many members of this forum are actual RNG software employees/programmers??
After all, if i look at it logically, and i was progaramming something that a handfully of people around the world were trying to crack the code of, i'd want to keep a cheeky eye on them and their progress, wouldn't u??
So, to any and all viewers of this thread who are such said people, come on chaps, just give us a crumb or two of relevant information!! :-X :-\ :question:
Believe it or not Ive seen it for sale on ebay
It was under Roulette Systems/Strategies
They were selling RNG code info or somethin like that
I have no idea if it is still there or if anyone bought it
Quote from: Twisteruk on Oct 09, 04:33 AM 2010
Do you prefer RNG or Real Wheel out of interest ?
Ideally, I would prefer a real wheel, because of the transparency - you can see how results are generated, whereas with software you can't (seeing is believing, usually ;) ).
To go from "X online gambling site cheats" to "all online gambling sites cheat" is quite a jump.
There are cheats and frauds in all industries, governments, religions, families and any other human organization you can list. That doesn't mean that everyone else in that organization is a cheater or fraud. You just have to follow your gut to decide who is legit and who isn't.
Personally, I don't worry about it much. If I were to avoid something I enjoy such as online gambling because I know there are cheats and frauds in the industry then I might as well apply this to the rest of my existence and move to the jungle where I don't have to deal with society at all.
I believe the current licensing and checks in place are strong enough that I'm okay with playing the casinos which are widely considered to have a good reputation. Granted, even the best online gambling sites will have their problems.
There will be hackers who occasionally succeed in exploiting the system (as seen with numerous poker networks which have had problems with players figuring out ways to cheat others through software exploits,) there will be rogue employees as there can be in any company and long list of other issues.
But again, I can run into these problems with any of the companies I do business with from day to day, and that's not a reason to avoid them (though I can choose to take my business to their competitors if I feel I'm not being treated fairly.) Again, if I were to fear getting screwed by every business I come across, then I might as well withdraw from society and live in a cave.
You can play or don't play. You can voice your opinion. Just please don't accuse a casino of being a cheat unless there is documented evidence as shown in the beginning of this thread.
As for Betvoyager, this casino is running the same rules of making money from statistics as any other legit casino. They don't need to cheat because they have a great money minting business model. They receive X percentage (house edge) of every cent which goes through their system. BV is unique in that they have a number of games which are zero house edge (not all of them are.) They take a 10% cut from withdrawals of winnings (only the winnings from the zero edge games) which exceed the deposit. If you work out the math, you will see that in some cases this fee can exceed the house edge of the regular games and in some cases it won't. It depends on the actions of the player.
Well said. Personally I get tired of the endless accusations of cheating by players who have lost.
Those guys are idiots.
You absolutely need winners to establish a brand. You can't do that by cheating.
When we were looking for a software provider we were approached by a small software firm (a guy and his tech buddy). They were proud of their system that is similiar to the one mentioned earlier. They give a higher payout to "fun" players and then a lower payout to real players. They are destined to fail!
Players who WIN make the casino brand popular, not the other way around. I also believe that in the long run the house will win. I also am convinced that providing an excellent entertainment value is the real goal of a casino.
Excellently worded. Pure idiotic to try to cheat players when the house has an embedded edge.
With plenty of negative-expectation players moving their money in the games, the smart casino would want to lock them in for as long time as possible as to give the house edge a chance to "kick-in".
If players are cheated, they simply turn their backs on that casino and taken elsewhere (It may not be fair but even only *perceived* cheating can make a player leave, mind you real cheating).
Quote from: CelticCasino on Oct 12, 07:30 PM 2010
Those guys are idiots.
You absolutely need winners to establish a brand. You can't do that by cheating.
When we were looking for a software provider we were approached by a small software firm (a guy and his tech buddy). They were proud of their system that is similiar to the one mentioned earlier. They give a higher payout to "fun" players and then a lower payout to real players. They are destined to fail!
Players who WIN make the casino brand popular, not the other way around. I also believe that in the long run the house will win. I also am convinced that providing an excellent entertainment value is the real goal of a casino.
So you don't deny the fact that something of a kind IS POSSIBLE?
maybe i am an idiot, but I say playtech software is just one like that which u encountered.
And they don't fail as u see.
u can win easily in their fun mode, and u r gonna lose with the same methods in real money mode (unless u leave very quickly). And whatever works for their live wheel doesn't work for their real money RNG.
It can't be coincidence with so many people which paid attention at this. And most of them
are OK with Betvoyager.
QuoteSo you don't deny the fact that something of a kind IS POSSIBLE?
maybe I am an unintelligent, but I say playtech software is just one like that which you encountered.
It is possible, I've seen it just like the description in the beginning of the thread.
Does Playtech do it? I seriously doubt it. They are a reputable company as well as licensed.
I think it can happen, but I believe it's extremely rare.
Companies I know who don't do it:
Vuetec LTd. (Dublinbet, luckylivecasino.com, globallivecasino.com)
Visionary iGaming (Black Orchid Casino, CelticCasino.com, FairwayCasino.com)
Companies I'm 99.99999% (I don't see the backend software) sure that don't do it.
Smartlivecasino
supercasino
Playtech (CasinoEuropa, vegasred etc..)
Microgaming
Evolution (live casino software)
I'm sure I missed many reputable casinos. These were the ones off the top of my head that I've known about on forums like GPWA.org and CAP as well as CasinoMeisters.
Some people say no RNG is cheating. Some people say ALL RNGs cheat...
Neither one nor the other extreme.
The reality is *SOME* RNG's are cheats which means your best bet is to play only at reputable casinos.
Steven is right, the more people that realizes this they should go with the most established casinos the worse chances for the fly-by-night.
Also I think it was Bayes who said why would someone transfer to any casino without doing basic background checks.
Good and bad reputations for internet companies do leave a track online.
Quote from: CelticCasino on Oct 12, 09:18 PM 2010
It is possible, I've seen it just like the description in the beginning of the thread.
Does Playtech do it? I seriously doubt it. They are a reputable company as well as licensed.
I think it can happen, but I believe it's extremely rare.
Companies I know who don't do it:
Vuetec LTd. (Dublinbet, luckylivecasino.com, globallivecasino.com)
Visionary iGaming (Black Orchid Casino, CelticCasino.com, FairwayCasino.com)
Companies I'm 99.99999% (I don't see the backend software) sure that don't do it.
Smartlivecasino
supercasino
Playtech (CasinoEuropa, vegasred etc..)
Microgaming
Evolution (live casino software)
I'm sure I missed many reputable casinos. These were the ones off the top of my head that I've known about on forums like GPWA.org and CAP as well as CasinoMeisters.
it can't be a coincidence. Playtech RNG is not random, and they can get away with that.
Hard to prove, yes. But ask someone who spent considerable time on their RNG and on live wheels (including playtech live wheel of course, I can't complain about it) and on Betvoyager, anyone will tell you
that their patterns are not random, after repeating your pattern a few times you will always lose no matter what. Of course it can happen on a live wheel or betvoyager, but the difference is that it ALWAYS happens.
also in old VLS forum there was a guy, who used to be a programmer for playtech and he addmited that their RNG patterns are programmed not to be exactly random.
as for other casinos' RNG I can't argue with u, you may be right about them, I just did not try them yet (except Betvoyager)
Vic, did u try playtech RNG, didn't u? What was your experience with that? Prestige casino or soemething of a kind if i remember right...
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 12, 10:50 PM 2010
Vic, did you try playtech RNG, didn't u? What was your experience with that? Prestige casino or something of a kind if I remember right...
I did some RNG sessions with Paul (ElTigreMexicano on the forums) at Bet365.com.
Nothing conclusive. Just some sessions he asked me to make together on RNG for the fast pace.
Got mixed results. Still we turned $50 deposit in almost $1500 in a matter of 3 weeks or so, but it was on live roulette. After that, I just haven't done any more sessions with him and frankly speaking haven't used the RNG on Joyland (the other playtech casino I have account in).
I'm just a non-RNG guy, but I respect those who enjoy the increased pace and swear they aren't rigged.
P.S: I enjoy to see the wheel spin & the ball bounce... with physics!
(No matter how advanced, computerized roulette animations just don't make it for me).
There's a lot of technical statisticians on this forum. It would be interesting if you guys made an independent analysis of the roulette games at the different casinos both RNG and live. Not on a retrospective analysis, but a from data you gather yourselves.
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 12, 08:35 PM 2010
u can win easily in their fun mode, and you are gonna lose with the same methods in real money mode (unless you leave very quickly).
I hear this all the time and of course I have experienced it myself.
All of the systems I have tried lose at about the rate as would be expected accounting for house edge. Then, I developed my first unique strategy with play money on two different casinos (and different software) and this strategy seemed like it just couldn't lose. Sure enough, as soon as I moved to real money it did nothing but lose on both casinos. Guess what happened when I moved back to play money after losing my bankroll? It continued losing! One casino was Betvoyager by the way.
So, what happened? I was getting lucky on play money. It wasn't the difference in play, it was the flaws in the strategy catching up to me. Unfortunately those losses didn't catch up to me until I started playing real money.
I think what many roulette players don't understand is that you can't declare a casino a cheat because real money plays differently than play money until you have hit "long term." The problem is, most of these players probably don't have the time, patience or motivation to hit long term. The first system I ever tried could go for over six hours of straight wins before I would hit a catastrophic loss. After that loss, I could go on for another six hours before hitting another loss. Sometimes the losses would be back to back within a half hour. How many people would be declaring this system a success after just a couple hours of play, take it into real money, blow their entire bankroll and then complain the RNG is rigged?
I believe it's functionally impossible to win roulette over the long term with RNG's. However, I also believe there are a very small number of players who from perhaps a glitch in the matrix or magic fairy dust are able to figure out a way to consistently make money on roulette. That said, I have my own new strategy that I'm working on and it has been very promising, so I'm not giving in yet! Perhaps I can turn myself into one of the few to have discovered the magic fairy dust.
*** Caveat emptor!!! ***
Some casino software really is different between real money and play money because the two modes generate results from different sources. On some casinos, play money uses the RNG from your operating system while real money uses the RNG from the casino. I believe the difference could create different "personalities."
Take a look at this interesting analysis.
link:://:.boallen.com/random-numbers.html (link:://:.boallen.com/random-numbers.html)
Quote from: CelticCasino on Oct 12, 11:02 PM 2010
There's a lot of technical statisticians on this forum. It would be interesting if you guys made an independent analysis of the roulette games at the different casinos both RNG and live. Not on a retrospective analysis, but a from data you gather yourselves.
Betfair provides a API for their casino, I wish more would follow. Imagine building a site where people could sign up to have their RNG output automatically pulled into the database via an API. This site could even have multiple levels of controls where a player could opt to share only RNG output, or output and bet results. The controls could also allow for some info to be public to be viewed by anyone. People could be doing all sorts of analysis with this data and it would give more transparency to the casino. Any third party site could run it's own independent verification that the RNG is indeed fair.
Quote from: 1652485 on Oct 13, 12:47 AM 2010
I hear this all the time and of course I have experienced it myself.
All of the systems I have tried lose at about the rate as would be expected accounting for house edge. Then, I developed my first unique strategy with play money on two different casinos (and different software) and this strategy seemed like it just couldn't lose. Sure enough, as soon as I moved to real money it did nothing but lose on both casinos. Guess what happened when I moved back to play money after losing my bankroll? It continued losing! One casino was Betvoyager by the way.
So, what happened? I was getting lucky on play money. It wasn't the difference in play, it was the flaws in the strategy catching up to me. Unfortunately those losses didn't catch up to me until I started playing real money.
I think what many roulette players don't understand is that you can't declare a casino a cheat because real money plays differently than play money until you have hit "long term." The problem is, most of these players probably don't have the time, patience or motivation to hit long term. The first system I ever tried could go for over six hours of straight wins before I would hit a catastrophic loss. After that loss, I could go on for another six hours before hitting another loss. Sometimes the losses would be back to back within a half hour. How many people would be declaring this system a success after just a couple hours of play, take it into real money, blow their entire bankroll and then complain the RNG is rigged?
I believe it's functionally impossible to win roulette over the long term with RNG's. However, I also believe there are a very small number of players who from perhaps a glitch in the matrix or magic fairy dust are able to figure out a way to consistently make money on roulette. That said, I have my own new strategy that I'm working on and it has been very promising, so I'm not giving in yet! Perhaps I can turn myself into one of the few to have discovered the magic fairy dust.
*** Caveat emptor!!! ***
Some casino software really is different between real money and play money because the two modes generate results from different sources. On some casinos, play money uses the RNG from your operating system while real money uses the RNG from the casino. I believe the difference could create different "personalities."
Take a look at this interesting analysis.
link:://:.boallen.com/random-numbers.html (link:://:.boallen.com/random-numbers.html)
i am not talking about cases like yours. i am talking about losing and winning ratio on a consistent basis. On a long run. say u play 5 out of 6 streets.
--on playtech RNG real money mode
--fun mode
-- live wheel
U always gonna be blown up on real money mode after 20 spins. U may lose, u may win in a fun mode or live wheel after that many spins. but not like on real money mode, where u won't win unless u get the hell out of there very quickly.
i am talking now of completely different results on a long run (unless u use hit and run tactics in RNG real money mode)
What about the casinos that maximize their profit before the bettors begin placing bets? I can't claim all RNGs are dishonest, but there are quite a few operators that practice the above tactic.
ive just read through all of these post and i have a question...
of all of these systems we assume the RNG learns after a while, has any of these systems held up on an independent RNG first?
by independent RNG im talking about something similar to RX simulator.
Quote from: frost on Jan 16, 04:45 PM 2011
I've just read through all of these post and I have a question...
of all of these systems we assume the RNG learns after a while, has any of these systems held up on an independent RNG first?
by independent RNG I'm talking about something similar to RX simulator.
yes, gotcha. When we talk about this we mean average results we get with the same method. Be it on RX with imported spins or RX RNG. Usually it does not make a huge difference.
But usually it DOES make a huge difference when you start using the same method on "rigged" casino RNG in real mode. Those methods may lose on RX as well, but they won't lose that much as they gonna lose on rigged casino RNG with real money.
i gave an example. I took 5 chips, put 2 on each of 2 dozens and and the remaining 1 on
a 6-number line on a 3rd dozen. I covered 30/37 of the layout.
I did it on betvyager (call it "good RNG"), and I won.
but 2 times I put it on playtech RNG and lost both times. And this result is TYPICAL for playtech RNG.
in reality it may happen for sure , but it won't happen that often as it happens in playtech RNG.
try it yourself a few times, compare and u'll see that I am right. But it may cost you a couple of bucks.
o okay i see what you mean
When i played on bet voyager i had 17 blacks in a row, that cant be normal can it? My bet was on red!! Only play money. I dont trust any online casinos, they are scamming people left, right and centre, this should'nt be allowed!
i saw 20 black on a live wheel i think. maybe u r right that they are rigged too, but once in a while it does happen. but it happens too often then yes it IS unusual
There is nothing unusual about 14 or 20 black/red in a row. They are pseudo-half part of the wheel. Every black number has a red adjacent number in both sides and vice versa, meaning thereby it is a matter of very micro movement to change winning colors. You should understand why the wheel has been designed like this? Why numbers are not in a symmetry like 0-1-2-3-4. Why the table and wheel has been designed separately. The set of numbers like column or dozen are falsely defined on table and creating an illusion of a group but they have no relations on wheel. For example, have a look at 1st dozen having 1-12 numbers. Look at their positions upon the wheel. Any relation? No!!!!!!!!!!
Never forget the ball has to run upon the wheel and not table and table has an altogether different design. These illusions had been created to cause maximum disadvantage to the player and a false sense of security.
Quote from: albalaha on Jan 16, 09:55 PM 2011
There is nothing unusual about 14 or 20 black/red in a row. They are pseudo-half part of the wheel. Every black number has a red adjacent number in both sides and vice versa, meaning thereby it is a matter of very micro movement to change winning colors. You should understand why the wheel has been designed like this? Why numbers are not in a symmetry like 0-1-2-3-4. Why the table and wheel has been designed separately. The set of numbers like column or dozen are falsely defined on table and creating an illusion of a group but they have no relations on wheel. For example, have a look at 1st dozen having 1-12 numbers. Look at their positions upon the wheel. Any relation? No!!!!!!!!!!
Never forget the ball has to run upon the wheel and not table and table has an altogether different design. These illusions had been created to cause maximum disadvantage to the player and a false sense of security.
could not agree more. That's what i said too. Some people did not agree. i am convinced that numbers are mixed on the wheel to confuse some players
Buddy Iggiv,
If you agree with me you should also agree that if 14 or 20 blacks appear in a row, there is nothing to be called rigged. If you are playing something in a wrong way, you are losing because of that. Remember a basic concept, every spin of roulette generates a single number as winner and not any color/dozen/column/even/odd etc.
Quote from: albalaha on Jan 16, 09:55 PM 2011
Why numbers are not in a symmetry like 0-1-2-3-4. Why the table and wheel has been designed separately. The set of numbers like column or dozen are falsely defined on table and creating an illusion of a group but they have no relations on wheel. For example, have a look at 1st dozen having 1-12 numbers. Look at their positions upon the wheel. Any relation? No!!!!!!!!!!
Al,
Of all the stuff you've posted up here, that particular quote has to be your most profound statement. It's too bad that many roulette players never see that or figure it out.
Thanks for the reminder.
AD
Thanks adulay,
If this statement of mine can protect guys from this so called negative streaks, I would be more than happy.
Quote from: albalaha on Jan 16, 10:22 PM 2011
Buddy Iggiv,
If you agree with me you should also agree that if 14 or 20 blacks appear in a row, there is nothing to be called rigged. If you are playing something in a wrong way, you are losing because of that. Remember a basic concept, every spin of roulette generates a single number as winner and not any color/dozen/column/even/odd etc.
well, this could be "made up" by RNG if it reacts to Martingale being played on one colour.
It does not mean of course. But what happens in rigged RNG is that everything comes by the "order". With a live wheel it happens because it happens sometimes, with rigged RNG it happens just in right time because the player right now bets on colour which did not come up for a few spins and RNG "answers his call ".
what I am saying it is not a proof of course that he played rigged RNG, but it is possible.
But on the other hand nothing is a proof. I can't prove anything about rigged RNG. Anyone can argue (like one guy in old VLS was doing it all the time) -- give me a proof. I can't give you a proof. If rigged RNG gives always a bad spin, anyone can say: bud, you just have a bad luck with this casino. And if I tell him: hey, how come I always have bad luck with those particular RNGs, but not with live wheel or BV RNG, then the answer can be -- OK, you have a bad luck with those RNGs, what can you do?
and this story happens to too many people which played RNG
Dear Iggiv,
If your conscious says a particular RNG cheats and counters your bets unfairly, do not play there. Simple. Go for genuine ones only but even in the most genuine ones such results will appear. I have won no deposit bonus from William Hill by playing roulette (wagering was 120 times upon roulette) although I could not withdraw it for some reasons, hence I can never agree that playtech RNG is rigged.
we agree to disagree here
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 16, 11:08 PM 2011
hey, how come I always have bad luck with those particular RNGs, but not with live wheel or BV RNG, then the answer can be -- OK, you have a bad luck with those RNGs, what can you do?
Uh, don't play the RNG machines? That would solve all your problems or at least the ones with "cheating" RNG machines.
It seems like such a simple solution. If the RNG machines always "cheat" you, don't play them!
AD (I don't play RNG for a variety of reasons. It's just personal I guess)
i don't play RNG of course (except of Betvoyager), but i learned this lesson a HARD WAY
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 17, 03:27 PM 2011
I don't play RNG of course (except of Betvoyager), but I learned this lesson a HARD WAY
You play with real money at BV? I assume you are (it's just that I never thought any of you guys would play RNG - i never trusted any of them). Also, wouldn't you rather play with a live online casino instead of playing RNG?
Another question: you're not affiliate with BV in any way whatsoever, right? I had to ask. ;D
Are you in the US by any chance?
Quote from: Scooby on Jan 16, 05:14 PM 2011
When i played on bet voyager i had 17 blacks in a row, that cant be normal can it? My bet was on red!! Only play money. I dont trust any online casinos, they are scamming people left, right and centre, this should'nt be allowed!
If you had been wagering on Black, would the casino still have been scamming you?
AD
Quote from: Scooby on Jan 16, 05:14 PM 2011
When I played on bet voyager I had 17 blacks in a row, that can't be normal can it? My bet was on red!! Only play money. I don't trust any online casinos, they are scamming people left, right and centre, this should'nt be allowed!
That's normal, Scooby. I see that all the time. I must have seen 15 or more blacks last night at Dublinet. When that happens, you have better chances following the color that is hitting...........instead of going against it. I've read somewhere that once a color hit something close to 30 times in a row at a vegas casino.
Quote from: Carsch on Jan 18, 04:18 PM 2011
You play with real money at BV? I assume you are (it's just that I never thought any of you guys would play RNG - I never trusted any of them). Also, wouldn't you rather play with a live online casino instead of playing RNG?
Another question: you're not affiliate with BV in any way whatsoever, right? I had to ask. ;D
Are you in the US by any chance?
only sometimes testing with small units. No affiliate. if I were one I would probably give you my affiliate link . I didn't, then what is my interest to promote anyone or reject anyone? My interest is only to share the truth as I see it. Also I have never said anything bad about Playtech casinos themselves, I have doubts only about RNG software they use. Casino people may not even know what's goin on in this "black box". They are not programmers or operators, they are obligated to use what playtech gives to them. I can't see anything wrong with their live wheels. So ask me if I am affiliate for any playtech casinos...
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 18, 08:43 PM 2011
only sometimes testing with small units.
But
'only sometimes' testing with small units can't say much. I was hoping you played real money all the time and used big units as well.............cause i was actually thinking about joining Netvoyager. I need to hear something good about that place from people who have been betting big and use progressions just so i can join. It's the only RNG casino i was thinking i could probablly trust.
Quote from: Carsch on Jan 18, 10:42 PM 2011
But 'only sometimes' testing with small units can't say much. I was hoping you played real money all the time and used big units as well.............cause I was actually thinking about joining Netvoyager. I need to hear something good about that place from people who have been betting big and use progressions just so I can join. It's the only RNG casino I was thinking I could probablly trust.
ask other people. most I think trust BV, but some complain. c'mon, you can join BV, start with small units and gradually build up if you can win. Nothing to lose --a few bucks
BV is the only OC that I know of which has randomness control (link:://:.betvoyager.com/games/randomness/). There is loads of info on the site telling you what it is and how it works, but the basic idea is that each sequence of spins is generated BEFORE you start playing, and you can prove this for yourself by using the publicly accessible SHA 256 Algorithm. This being the case, there's no way that any of the outcomes can be changed in response to where you place a bet.
And, no, I'm not an affiliate! ;D
Actually, I don't think BV have an affiliate scheme.
Quote from: Bayes on Jan 19, 01:48 AM 2011
BV is the only Online Casino that I know of which has randomness control (link:://:.betvoyager.com/games/randomness/). There is loads of info on the site telling you what it is and how it works, but the basic idea is that each sequence of spins is generated BEFORE you start playing, and you can prove this for yourself by using the publicly accessible SHA 256 Algorithm. This being the case, there's no way that any of the outcomes can be changed in response to where you place a bet.
I wanna believe that; but still that won't prove anything, Bayes. In our computer age, anything is possible. ;D But then, maybe i should give it a shot and see how it works for me.
QuoteAnd, no, I'm not an affiliate! ;D
He he! I was being sarcastic when i asked Iggiv the question. ;D
If i had been betting on black and it came up 17 times in a row i still wouldn't trust it! Win or lose isn't the issue here, this has happened too often on rng. Stay well clear!
This guy offers a million dollar reward for anyone who can beat an online roulette number generator game.
link:://:.genuinewinner.com/100k.html (link:://:.genuinewinner.com/100k.html)
link:://:.genuinewinner.com/onlinegambling.htm (link:://:.genuinewinner.com/onlinegambling.htm)
QuoteIrrespective of what you WANT to hear, it is impossible to beat random number generator ( RNG) casinos, that is online casinos where they use actual software like a computer game. Most people want to play these type of casinos, but take it from me it absolutely impossible. I'm so confident of this that if anyone can prove me wrong, I will happily pay them $1,000,000. The offer is completely real.
Quote from: Carsch on Jan 29, 04:11 PM 2011
This guy offers a million dollar reward for anyone who can beat an online roulette number generator game.
link:://:.genuinewinner.com/100k.html (link:://:.genuinewinner.com/100k.html)
link:://:.genuinewinner.com/onlinegambling.htm (link:://:.genuinewinner.com/onlinegambling.htm)
Isn't this Gen-winner guy the one that fellow member Jordan aka VIP warned us all about when Jordan was 'teaching' us about VB?
He's in Aussi land, (gen winner chap)
No idea who he is. I just happen to stumble upon his site.
hi all,
I think that faulty software brings no benefit to casino owners, I've always thought that software providers have no interest in making a cheating wheel, as casino looses :
1. money- as a player who identifies the fault can beat the software;
2. players- one who doubts the wheel is biased will chose another place to wager ( no switching costs, numerous alternatives)
3. reputation- the information exchange all around the world has become extremely easy and fast process, so the Word of Mouth is a best medium for casinos to attract more players, but it's also proved that bed news are spread 10X faster than the good ones.
to conclude with, all I wanted to say is that if a wheel is biased, it doesn't always mean the casino is cheating, it is a faulty software, that is much worse for the casinos, than for you, players.
Hmmm...Your signature line prompts me to ask if you work in the casino industry...do you?
Yes I do, but I'm not here for that :) I'm to learn more and share my experience :)
Quote from: Twisteruk on Oct 08, 02:53 AM 2010
I've seen too many people lose it all on RNG
Its all over the Net, I wonder why ?
No, infact I don't anymore. Victor has shown us Proof Positive that RNG *can* be rigged
YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IF THE RNG YOU ARE PLAYING IS RIGGED !
I made 3 deposit in 32redmobile this week,played roulette.All just gone eaten by the rng.
Usually I played Playtech.
Very often read in some forums that MG is the most fair rng,
However seeing the behaviour of this rng ,I must agree to twisteruk.
"Hmmm...Your signature line prompts me to ask if you work in the casino industry...do you?"
Amazing comment esoito........
You knew that Playborne was in the casino industry.......
Quote from: Carsch on Jan 18, 08:01 PM 2011
That's normal, Scooby. I see that all the time. I must have seen 15 or more blacks last night at Dublinet. When that happens, you have better chances following the color that is hitting...........instead of going against it. I've read somewhere that once a color hit something close to 30 times in a row at a vegas casino.
the other day whilst playing auto wheel at Vic Chand, red appeared 30 times in 34 spins and two of the 4 spins not red were Zero, poor old Blacks dammit!!
Quote"Hmmm...Your signature line prompts me to ask if you work in the casino industry...do you?"
Amazing comment esoito........
You knew that Playborne was in the casino industry.......
Yes I am, and I do not try to hide this. Even more, I am proud to be a representative of a fully functional online casino soft, after having read all this "cheating soft proof" threads.
Despite this, I personally am keen on roulette, and I'm very glad that I've discovered this forum, as I am a much better player now, than I was before registering here :) So, esoito's question was timely, indeed.
In case of further questions about me, do not hesitate to ask :)
P.S I suggested Playborne True 3D roulette for testing spins, you can find the game in Playborne Demo casino, it's free to register and you have enough starting bankroll for testing systems. I can also provide roulette simulation, that is RNG for testing 1 million spins, it's in the process of developement, so I try to be productive to our community as well, in exchange of knowledge I get from here.
There will always be cheaters, as in all business, but there are casinos I believe will never do it, the bigger and reputable, why should the take such a risk. They have to fight all rumors anyhow.
Then a player come to a bad streak, he progress and it is his own decision. The stake rises hundred times, the player lose, and got the feeling of a rigged play. But the truth is in any casino you will find sequences which goes against you for long, if you do not change, break, and rather increase you bets then, the situation looks terrible but do not have to be any dishonest play.
The NoZero and casinos as BV which offer no house edge, earns on theire bigger bankroll, AND the tax of 10% of the winnings in the games. Its about 5% HE (if 50% of the money are loss), but still better for the player as it is taxed not during play, its on the winnings.
There are a lot of cheats. They especially love to prey on people who have money to gamble away. That is one of the reasons that I looked for a site like this - to find other like-minded people who look out for each other. :)