Caleb
DISCLAIMER: at no point am I doubting the validity of the spins. I am accepting they are genuine and taken from a biased wheel.
I ran your biased numbers through RX and found them to fail a chi square test.(I used 10K to match the random.org spins below)
#17 is the number that hits well above average.....and #24
Numbers average around 268 hits with a low of 224 but 17 and 24 sitting around 360 hits
I ran, also, 10k random.org and it passed a chi square test.
12 underhit at 235 spins where av. was 268 spins, with #24 hitting 298 times.(I can see 360 is un naturally higher than 298)
So....you go to the casino armed with the fact the wheel is biased on #17 and #24
Now, these numbers hit 360. A lot of that is natural and within random, but some is bias and not within random.
So, this time, this wheel could naturally under perform on #17 or #24 like 12 did above, and with the bias hits added, look normal.
in other words, you dont know how well naturally that number will perform, and your calculated 15% or 20% edge could be nothing like that when you re visit the wheel.
1. Its not a known. some luck is needed.
2. Also, that chi square test didnt turn FAIL for 400 spins. Thats random too. You could be in the hole deep after 8 solid hours play.
3. Also, you are relying on past spins for the natural times your biased number hit and it can perform so differently over the next 10 k
(this is a genuine attempt to understand. Please treat it as such)
caleb looking for the wobbly wheel
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/10/02/source2fda8.gif) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tv3Ay)
Such a wise monkey
Quote1. Its not a known. some luck is needed.
I don't know what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say that you're not sure if the wheel is biased? I would hope that you'd be absolutely sure that it was. ::)
Quote2. Also, that chi square test didnt turn FAIL for 400 spins. Thats random too. You could be in the hole deep after 8 solid hours play.
And why are you running a chi square on just 400 spins? :o
Quote3. Also, you are relying on past spins for the natural times your biased number hit and it can perform so differently over the next 10 k
When measuring the fitness of the gambling device you can, of course, use past spins. Actually I have probably another 20k or 30k spins from that wheel. I played off an on several different times. The wheel has an indexable number tape, meaning they were able to rotate the numbers. However, whenever this happened it was quite easy to find out how much it was rotated by scratch marks.etc. There's no doubt that the wheel was biased. Number 17 was at 7.01 standard deviations and number 24 was at 6.18 standard deviations. That's not chance.
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/10/02/source064e9.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tvAJL)
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/10/02/source551ce.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tvV5S)
Turner,
Do you know how many spins it took me to determine that the wheel was biased?
Ii will reply tonight....thanks for the replies.
Granddaughters birthday and cant reply properly on this phone
What I will say is this.
You show also 17 is high at 7SD
I am trying to say something else
Lets imagine I have something in my eye and it makes me blink too much.
Some expert could count my blinks and determine I have something in my eye because I blinked 50 times per minute instead of 20. He didnt examin my eye....just counted blinks.
Some of those blinks were normal automatic blinks....some because I have something in my eye
The expert cant say which was which...just that I am blinking unnaturally.
Some of 17s hits are normal and that varies.
When I come to the table....I dont know if 17 will underperform regardless of the bias.
You have determined bias from a big sample
You play in a tiny sample.
Understand?
Need more variables. Do you have tourette's?
Quote from: Turner on Oct 03, 02:57 AM 2018Some of those blinks were normal automatic blinks....some because I have something in my eye
The expert cant say which was which...just that I am blinking unnaturally.
Some of 17s hits are normal and that varies.
But for expert does not need to sort which hit was natural which was because the number is biased :)
The same like which is the difference if you braked leg jumping from 1 meter or from 2 meters high ???
Important is only result and that result is that concrete number is biased and because of that it has the chance to catch ball more times than mathematical in future.
Quote from: Turner on Oct 03, 02:57 AM 2018You have determined bias from a big sample
yes that to put to gypsum your braked leg you first must enter to medical university finish studies so spent for that 10 years... :)
Thanks..I get you..but in a nutshell....I am not saying this or that is so.
I am sayin...I am wondering if this is so
If 17 is biased....its high SD isnt all down to bias
If you filled 17 in with bluetack....yes...it never hit all down to the blue tack....
Quote from: Steve on Oct 03, 03:49 AM 2018
Need more variables. Do you have tourette's?
Well...steve...I really looking forward to you commenting because you can see the point I am trying to make rather than taking the piss
Ok serious response.
Quote from: Turner on Oct 03, 02:57 AM 2018Some expert could count my blinks and determine I have something in my eye because I blinked 50 times per minute instead of 20. He didnt examin my eye....just counted blinks.
Thats just a statistical anomaly. If we rely only on statistics, then we need a lot of data. The more data, the more assured we are the anomaly will continue.
You can greatly reduce the amount of spins needed if you verify bias visually. There are numerous ways. Still it isn't 100% assurance of bias, but you don't need 100%, like the casino doesn't need you to lose on every spin.
Also you might test 100 spins and see which won most. If theres real bias, theres a better chance it might show as hot numbers. But theres too much variance to be sure. Do you need to be sure? No. But theres too much of a chance the variance is too great for reliable analysis. Taking such a shortcut might turn a potential +1% edge into a -2.6% house edge. Or you might be wrong and avoid the bias, and end up with -2.8%,which is worse than the house edge.
So you must take into account more data. Not just spins, not just visual, but also what the data says.
For example, you can notice a half-wheel bias in as little as 500 spins. You should still verify it though. And again a statistical anomaly is just that, and not a guaranteed bias.
There's a lot more to it. But basically sector bias like half wheel requires fewer spins.
In any case, it's a big waste of time and impractical to consider only winning numbers alone.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 03, 05:21 AM 2018
Ok serious response.
Thats just a statistical anomaly. If we rely only on statistics, then we need a lot of data. The more data, the more assured we are the anomaly will continue.
You can greatly reduce the amount of spins needed if you verify bias visually. There are numerous ways. Still it isn't 100% assurance of bias, but you don't need 100%, like the casino doesn't need you to lose on every spin.
Ok...
But am I way out by wondering if a biased #17 isnt all bias. Some hits are natural and those natural hits can underperform like sleeping for 600 spins in the short term at the table. It will hit because of sime defect but not above average
Just trying to understand
Yes again what you described could easily be just a statistical anomaly. Simply more data means more assured. We can never be 100% sure but don't need to be.
The data may suggest bias for 2 wheels but it's just statistical anomaly and we lose $5000. Then on a third wheel, we have a genuine bias and careful milk it for $30,000.
Thats just looking at winning numbers. Again you look at much more.
I personally wouldnt bother with bias in most cases. There are better and quicker ways.
Quote from: nottophammer on Oct 02, 07:58 PM 2018
caleb looking for the wobbly wheel
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/10/02/source2fda8.gif) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tv3Ay)
Such a wise monkey
Is this wheel biased ?
I am not believing my eyes, the ball is always coming to rest on the left side
Hey Steve
I have a question, my system is providing me two hot points on the wheel ( the two points are -18 pockets far each other, so a diameter of 180 degree).
As I don’t have a computer that measures the speed accurately I am using these two points with their neighbours in my bet.
Everything looks fine, except when the wheel travels so fast, then I noticed that the former predictions are no longer valid, instead of the -18 pockets distance (or 180 diameter), the distance under actual conditions drops to 90 degree ( -9 pockets ).
Unfortunately, it’s hard to distinguish the wheel conditions on time, therefore i am looking for a way to solve this problem.
Do you have any advice in this regard?
Looking forward to your reply
In any case, prediction is just modeling and variables. Find the relationship between variables and outcomes. Rotor speed is just a variable.
Are you betting before or after ball release?
Quote from: Steve on Oct 03, 06:22 AM 2018
In any case, prediction is just modeling and variables. Find the relationship between variables and outcomes. Rotor speed is just a variable.
Are you betting before or after ball release?
Steve,
I bet after ball release, I told you how the system is working, the modeling is working good, however my actual problem is to find which conditions are valid for the current spin, I mean which relation is valid, the -18 pockets or the -9 pockets distance ?
That’s the difference between a real computer and my system, I think a real computer will catch the rotor speed and focus on only one spot, my system can’t do that, instead it’s providing the four possible spots.
Of course I can bet all the four points but that will be too many numbers ? Won’t it be ?
This is nothing to do with my post.
If predictions are early, even a computer may be forced to bet 4 peaks because the ball never rolls the same on different spins. There are too many small bumps and ball track imperfections.
It sounds like you're using vb and looking for a way to deal with different rotor speeds. The effects are:
1. Different rotor travel distance
2. Different scatter, which is mostly linear on some wheels, and far from linear on other wheels.
#1 is easy enough. #2 is much harder and you would ideally study which rotor speed ranges are most predictable, and isolate to them. Thats the simple but not best option.
I suggest test on recorded spins to carefully check where your inaccuracies come from, then you'll best know solutions.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 03, 06:45 AM 2018
If predictions are early, even a computer may be forced to bet 4 peaks because the ball never rolls the same on different spins. There are too many small bumps and ball track imperfections.
It sounds like you're using vb and looking for a way to deal with different rotor speeds. The effects are:
1. Different rotor travel distance
2. Different scatter, which is mostly linear on some wheels, and far from linear on other wheels.
#1 is easy enough. #2 is much harder and you would ideally study which rotor speed ranges are most predictable, and isolate to them. Thats the simple but not best option.
I suggest test on recorded spins to carefully check where your inaccuracies come from, then you'll best know solutions.
Steve,
I think what you suggesting is definitely an option, but what about my following workaround ?
Let’s say we find a wheel which is most of the time traveling at near constant speed, then we bet the two strong spots (-18 pockets ) and we cover also two neighbours each side so we have a total of : 10 numbers
2-1-2
2-1-2
Then for security, we cover also the two weak spots (-9 pockets), but this time we cover only one neighbour each side so we have a total of : 6 numbers
1-1-1
1-1-1
So we will be placing a bet on 16 numbers total, now the question is, do you think such a workaround is viable ?
Thx
Quote from: Turner on Oct 03, 06:44 AM 2018
This is nothing to do with my post.
You made a few good points when extrapolated affect a few more things.
So far the explanation offered is not up to mark imo.
It'll be good you express your view whether you feel your points have been properly addressed.
Lets see how far this discussion go
AP wil work against you if not done right. Instead of hitting the right area, you can avoid it and make the casinos edge against you stronger. So you never bet weak points. Only make bets that have an advantage.
It’s likely that with many AP players, like Caleb, when a sector hits above average it could be random or variance and not actually a bias
He perhaps wins by luck (when he does)
I’ve always said this
There's always both good and bad luck. But when theres genuine advantage, eventually, things go your way. Just like it does for casinos vs normal players.
My question would be how do you track so many spins and not draw suspension for so long?
To find true bias in a wheel, I'm assuming you would need to track around 10,000 spins. If the average wheel spins about 30 times an hour, and you spent 8 hours a day watching it (without being noticed), it would take 42 days just to track 1 wheel! And maybe it's not even bias at all.
Also, why would the casino spend so much on tracking software and not use it to catch bias?
Even if casino knows the wheel is bias, and plays it anyway, why would they let someone make a killing on those bias numbers without shutting down the table?
Seems like one of those things that sounds good in theory, but not in practice.
Good questions Scarface. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Scarface on Oct 03, 07:49 AM 2018
My question would be how do you track so many spins and not draw suspension for so long?
To find true bias in a wheel, I'm assuming you would need to track around 10,000 spins. If the average wheel spins about 30 times an hour, and you spent 8 hours a day watching it (without being noticed), it would take 42 days just to track 1 wheel! And maybe it's not even bias at all.
Also, why would the casino spend so much on tracking software and not use it to catch bias?
Even if casino knows the wheel is bias, and plays it anyway, why would they let someone make a killing on those bias numbers without shutting down the table?
Seems like one of those things that sounds good in theory, but not in practice.
Then there is the adult diapers they would have to wear so as to be on the number/section when it hits.
Quote from: Scarface on Oct 03, 07:49 AM 2018
My question would be how do you track so many spins and not draw suspension for so long?
To find true bias in a wheel, I'm assuming you would need to track around 10,000 spins. If the average wheel spins about 30 times an hour, and you spent 8 hours a day watching it (without being noticed), it would take 42 days just to track 1 wheel! And maybe it's not even bias at all.
Also, why would the casino spend so much on tracking software and not use it to catch bias?
Even if casino knows the wheel is bias, and plays it anyway, why would they let someone make a killing on those bias numbers without shutting down the table?
Seems like one of those things that sounds good in theory, but not in practice.
Scarface,
It took me less than a minute to determine that the wheel was biased, and about another ten minutes to identify three potential anomalies and the approximate locations. The trackers and I then discretely tracked it in shifts off and on over two months. As a matter of fact, we found six playable biased wheels within this casino, so we proceeded to track every wheel they had. They also had several wheels in storage that would periodically rotate in and out. Some wheels would disappear for several months and then reappear.
Even after finding the wheels we continued to track and play them periodically for several years. The casino never knew we were there until...they did. The key was to wear recorders just under shirts with foam on the buttons.
The casino knew they had biased wheels and they just chose to move them every few months.
@Roulettebeater,
When we played with your we were playing using a different technique, and as you may recall, it was quite effective.
QuoteThen there is the adult diapers they would have to wear so as to be on the number/section when it hits.
Nimo,
You wear diapers? :o Why would you want to wear diapers? Why not just take a break to use the bathroom? We would also take breaks to eat sometimes.
Quote from: The General on Oct 03, 09:55 AM 2018
Nimo,
You wear diapers? :o Why would you want to wear diapers? Why not just take a break to use the bathroom? We would also take breaks to eat sometimes.
I've sat at a high roller table next to a man that was obviously a AP. He smelled like shit. His number hit and he won over $50k on the last bet. He then left, I commented on the smell to the croupier, she told me he has been there for hours farting and fidgeting as if he had to go, but he didn't want to leave since his section wasn't coming up so he kept betting and progressing. He finally shit his pants about half hour before he won. Pit boss came over with a crew to clean up his stool and to spray to air it out, I asked him if that guy was a regular, he said no, but he hoped he became one because he was down about $25k
Give me online where I can play for 20-40 minutes, make my bank and enjoy the rest of my day. No stink or whatever else goes with it.
whats going on here!
can't we enjoy only one discussion with no offense?
Quote from: NimoGive me online where I can play for 20-40 minutes, make my bank and enjoy the rest of my day. No stink or whatever else goes with it.
Nimo,
Why are you afraid to just take a break and use the restroom? :o Taking a break every now and then doesn't affect anything.
Quote from: The General on Oct 03, 11:29 AM 2018
Nimo,
Why are you afraid to just take a break and use the restroom? :o Taking a break every now and then doesn't affect anything.
You are beginning to worry me Caleb, have you been tested for dementia? In all seriousness, you seem to have cognitive dysfunction, you don't read what is written, you read what you perceive and reply in that fashion. If you haven't been tested, for the sake of your children please get tested. I have experience with symptoms as some of my family members suffered from it.
Hey Steve,
This is from your website:
"When is betting progression a good thing?
Positive progression can are often used to recover losses if you first have an edge. But you need to be sure about your edge, which means you should have a strong mechanism or analysis method for determining whether or not you have an edge"
what do you mean with " But you need to be sure about your edge"?
how do you verify that you have a real edge?
Quote from: Scarface on Oct 03, 07:49 AM 2018how do you track so many spins and not draw suspension for so long?
Many ways. Easiest is use teams and video record spins.
Quote from: Scarface on Oct 03, 07:49 AM 2018To find true bias in a wheel, I'm assuming you would need to track around 10,000 spins.
No thats just for single number bias, and if you're looking only at winning numbers and nothing else. In reality, you first identify a likely biased wheel from observations.
Quote from: Scarface on Oct 03, 07:49 AM 2018Also, why would the casino spend so much on tracking software and not use it to catch bias?
Such software is made to SELL, not to do everything it could and should. The latest versions are only just scratching the surface. Casino staff are mostly clueless. Their more experienced staff may attend seminars and have "semi-experts" explain things to them in crash courses. But there's no deeper understanding of it.
Quote from: Scarface on Oct 03, 07:49 AM 2018Even if casino knows the wheel is bias, and plays it anyway, why would they let someone make a killing on those bias numbers without shutting down the table?
No they don't know about it, at least not before it's too late. Assuming we're talking modern approaches.
If there's a team mixing up bets, and there's a bias on 32, and the bets are sprinkled everywhere... but the combined bets of all players over multiple spins lead to more bets being placed on 32, then how would the casino know? They'd need to tally up all the bets from all players, and determine which of them are in the team, which no staff member would realistically do until they check wheel payouts and notice their profits are down.
Then consider on top of the covert bets, team players change, and bets on the biased numbers only occur with specific conditions that the casino software doesn't even consider.
It doesnt mean the casino makes a loss, because there are other players at the table. But maybe they were expecting $500k profit but only got $400k over a month. A month. A bit too late considering the bias team took $100k.
There's a lot more to it but you are asking good questions.
I'm sure both Caleb and I are reluctant to go into more detail. The smarter casino consultants check the forums and easily sort through bullshit, and focus on what may help them to detect APs.
If we explained a lot more detail, the only people who would likely care, understand or benefit from it are the casino consultants.
So it really makes no sense to go into more detail here.
Regarding the consultants, there are many. They often speak trash about each other. And a lot of them are full of shit. Take Richard Marcus for example... he found out about my Hybrid computers then publicly stated his associates had one and that it worked, blah blah. But at the time I knew very well who had my hybrid and none of them had any contact with Richard. So he was just making his claim to act like he's "in the know". I called him out on his lie, so he changed his tune and called me names. There are others who are equally full of shit like Michael Barnett, who had a dummy spit when I refused to send him a free roulette computer. He got angry so sent my photo to be published, which was acquired from the griffin database (database of professional players shared between casinos). Not like it matters considering I play from home.
I could explain more but these consultants are usually ex-players. But they weren't particularly successful players, and their play goes back often 30+ years. They are very much in the dark about what is being done today. The best "casino consultants" are probably 5+ years behind the modern APs. The people actually doing it all, real play - mostly you don't hear about them. You wont for a while yet.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 03, 07:12 PM 2018
Regarding the consultants, there are many. They often speak trash about each other. And a lot of them are full of shit. Take Richard Marcus for example... he found out about my Hybrid computers then publicly stated his associates had one and that it worked, blah blah. But at the time I knew very well who had my hybrid and none of them had any contact with Richard. So he was just making his claim to act like he's "in the know". I called him out on his lie, so he changed his tune and called me names. There are others who are equally full of shit like Michael Barnett, who had a dummy spit when I refused to send him a free roulette computer. He got angry so sent my photo to be published, which was acquired from the griffin database (database of professional players shared between casinos). Not like it matters considering I play from home.
I could explain more but these consultants are usually ex-players. But they weren't particularly successful players, and their play goes back often 30+ years. They are very much in the dark about what is being done today. The best "casino consultants" are probably 5+ years behind the modern APs. The people actually doing it all, real play - mostly you don't hear about them. You wont for a while yet.
U forget to mention one more name.
General
Caleb's knowledge is very detailed and specific in some areas. He knows a lot more than average casino consultants. In all honesty I don't know much about him besides what he posts. We agree on almost everything... which makes him "almost" 100% correct :wink:
So you don't like him. Why? Because he can be a patronizing ass sometimes? It really gets old explaining the same really basic stuff that for some reason isnt being understood. It would be sand in anyone's crotch.
Who said i dont like him. I really like his manipulation technique. Like
A lot of turbo follower asked question time to time to get his final . But he refused to answer exactly . That makes sense.
But he hand over his exact strategy to general even general never ask for that.
Quote from: MadiWho said i dont like him. I really like his manipulation technique. Like
Yes, I am loved by all. :xd:
Quote from: MadiA lot of turbo follower asked question time to time to get his final . But he refused to answer exactly . That makes sense.
I refused to answer what?
Quote from: MadiBut he hand over his exact strategy to general even general never ask for that.
Can you explain what you mean?
Quote from: The General on Oct 03, 08:09 PM 2018
Yes, I am loved by all. :xd:
I refused to answer what?
That quote is about tubro not u
(link:s://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThriftyWeakDikkops-max-1mb.gif)
Well, I'm sure that you love me more.
General
We heard about kristian kaisan as good bais player . We never heard of u. Are u a undercover?
Quote from: Madi on Oct 03, 08:25 PM 2018
General
We heard about kristian kaisan as good bais. We never heard of u. Are u a undercover?
Kaisan is not a biased wheel player. He is a VB player.
But, I'm both a VB player and a biased wheel player.
Kaisan has had success but you've heard of him because he did some interviews in Europe. I've turned down interviews. However I was in the press on a few different occasions. He's in Europe, I'm not. But we've met.
The most successful players are usually the ones you don't hear about.
Are you 100% roulette player or do work for casino as well?
Quote from: Madi on Oct 03, 08:38 PM 2018
Are you 100% roulette player or do work for casino as well?
I don't work for any casino. I'm a full time bad guy.
What can I say? I really like a good caper. 8)
Quote from: The General on Oct 03, 08:41 PM 2018
I don't work for any casino. I'm a full time bad guy.
Here it is u r a clever guy. U modified it. Hehe
General
Why dont you make a system and gift all of us. Or u can pick up any system , do a varnish with ur knowledge and gift us. Ur way of playing is not for everyone . U know that.
Quote from: Madi on Oct 03, 08:51 PM 2018
General
Why dont you make a system and gift all of us. Or u can pick up any system , do a varnish with ur knowledge and gift us. Ur way of playing is not for everyone . U know that.
Actually, I did. It's on here somewhere.
Any link, any name? I want to see. Any kind of hints so that we can search for
Quote from: Madi on Oct 03, 08:05 PM 2018But he hand over his exact strategy to general even general never ask for that.
Turbo revealed plenty to explain his strategy down to small details. I already explained it. Anyone with intelligence who was paying attention would know his system.
Quote from: Madi on Oct 03, 08:25 PM 2018We heard about kristian kaisan as good bais player . We never heard of u. Are u a undercover?
You dont have any idea how many players you dont know. You watch too much TV.
I utterly hate playing hint games. I wrote a system about a year ago. I think it was on here. It could possibly have been on Roulette 30.
I don't have a link. Sorry.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 03, 09:05 PM 2018
You dont have any idea how many players you dont know. You watch too much TV.
Its not possible to know everyone. We just know what we see on news.these r just like inspiration
Quote from: The General on Oct 03, 09:05 PM 2018
I utterly hate playing hint games. I wrote a system about a year ago. I think it was on here. It could possibly have been on Roulette 30.
I don't have a link. Sorry.
U get me wrong. Hints for seaching the strategy . Anyway i will try to find it
Quote from: Madi on Oct 03, 09:10 PM 2018
U get me wrong. Hints for seaching the strategy . Anyway i will try to find it
Madi,
I honestly don't know where it is.
Lots of fairy tale claims
No on topic post as expected
Quote from: Steve on Oct 03, 07:05 PM 2018
I'm sure both Caleb and I are reluctant to go into more detail. The smarter casino consultants check the forums and easily sort through bullshit, and focus on what may help them to detect APs.
If we explained a lot more detail, the only people who would likely care, understand or benefit from it are the casino consultants.
So it really makes no sense to go into more detail here.
Could that statement not also apply to winning system players?
Where you are asking them to prove it here?
And those pop up ads are damn annoying..why do you have them?
Quote from: 6th-sense on Oct 04, 02:34 AM 2018Could that statement not also apply to winning system players?
Of course.
Quote from: 6th-sense on Oct 04, 02:34 AM 2018Where you are asking them to prove it here?
When someone comes here and baits people with the HG and drops clues that lead nowhere, or allude to theories and information that's incorrect, expect knowledgeable members to call them out on bullshit.
And when members constantly argue the point that their approach is best, and they give proof like 22 spin charts, expect knowledgeable players to say something.
Besides when it comes to proof, we're not talking about keeping secrets.
Quote from: 6th-sense on Oct 04, 02:34 AM 2018And those pop up ads are damn annoying..why do you have them?
Logged in members dont see them. Stay logged in and you'll never see them.
Your right they’ve stopped
Caleb is a good player, he saw how i play..
Our methods have a few things in common.
Good for you share with others :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lucky7Red on Oct 04, 07:00 AM 2018
Good for you share with others :thumbsup:
well, i always tried to help, unfortunately lot of people think it is waste of time to focus on real wheel.
what should i do to those who like to be screwed by RNG machines.?
Oh ok then :( :'(
A friend of mine who has a computer and secretly using it at some land casino in Europe told me today that without progression it‘s not possible to make profits even with computer, he is used to bet 9 numbers, he told me that he gets sometimes lots of misses because the ball lands on the uncovered neighbour’s pocket, he said that he is using a progression and it’s working great.
He didn’t tell me what progression he using, do you know what progression is used by computer players ?
Quote from: RoulettebeaterA friend of mine who has a computer and secretly using it at some land casino in Europe told me today that without progression isn’t possible to make profits even with computer, he is used to bet 9 numbers, he told me that he gets sometimes misses because the ball lands on the uncovered neighbour pocket, he said that he is using a progression and it’s working great.
He didn’t tell me what progression is it, do you know what progression is used by computer players ?
Roulettebeater,
A progression isn't required. And furthermore I don't use a computer of any kind whatsoever. When we were playing, we weren't using a progression other than one that was based on the quality of the playing conditions at the time of a specific spin. We were doing our best to win as much as possible while staying under the radar.
Progressions can not turn a negative expectation game into a positive one. In other words if a system can't win flat betting then it can't win with a progression either.
Quote from: The General on Oct 04, 03:14 PM 2018
Roulettebeater,
A progression isn't required. And furthermore I don't use a computer of any kind whatsoever. When we were playing, we weren't using a progression other than one that was based on the quality of the playing conditions at the time of a specific spin. We were doing our best to win as much as possible while staying under the radar. Progressions can not turn a negative expectation game into a positive one. In other words if a system can't win flat betting then it can't win with a progression either.
You are a VB player, your method can’t win flatbet under any condition, what you were doing is just fishing some opportunities, a computer can win under any condition, a progression can be used to deal with the misses that can occur due to calibration issues.
According to Steve‘s website, a progression can be successful in case the player has an edge.
I am not sure what does that imply, epecially for VB players
That's simply not true. We were largely flat betting. We are indeed vb players and we do quite well flat betting. We are quite skilled in our craft. We won based on the accuracy if our predictions, raw skill and nothing else enabled us to win.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 04, 07:09 AM 2018lot of people think it is waste of time to focus on real wheel.
It is far more vulnerable to exploit than typical RNG. It's the obvious choice.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 04, 03:10 PM 2018A friend of mine who has a computer and secretly using it at some land casino in Europe told me today that without progression it‘s not possible to make profits even with computer
Nonsense. Does the casino only profit if players only make flat bets?
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 04, 03:10 PM 2018he told me that he gets sometimes lots of misses because the ball lands on the uncovered neighbour’s pocket, he said that he is using a progression and it’s working great.
There are two main ways to bet. Either the occasional single number, in which case you still have a strong long-term edge but anything can happen in the short-term, including lots of near wins. OR you use a betting team and cover like 15 numbers and win on almost every spin over a few spins (mixed in with other player bets), then leave. The second option is much quicker and easier. And like I keep saying there's much more to it but some people should stick with their systems, and dont bother looking into AP. It's a very different mindset.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 04, 06:35 PM 2018
It is far more vulnerable to exploit than typical RNG. It's the obvious choice.
Nonsense. Does the casino only profit if players only make flat bets?
There are two main ways to bet. Either the occasional single number, in which case you still have a strong long-term edge but anything can happen in the short-term, including lots of near wins. OR you use a betting team and cover like 15 numbers and win on almost every spin over a few spins (mixed in with other player bets), then leave. The second option is much quicker and easier. And like I keep saying there's much more to it but some people should stick with their systems, and dont bother looking into AP. It's a very different mindset.
Betting team ? And cover 15 numbers ?
How ? What do you mean with betting team ? How should it work ?
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 03:54 AM 2018Betting team ? And cover 15 numbers ?
How ? What do you mean with betting team ? How should it work ?
I play the same way online, yet Steve and Caleb would argue that I have no clue on what I'm doing. Only they know the way.
Nimo you've said many things that are incorrect and indicate you have no idea. First you criticize ap, now you are an ap? Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies.
Steve
So what ? Do i need a computer that costs >80k in order to place bet that consists of 15 numbers ?
That’s nonsense. This business model is totally shit !
What edge do I get from betting 15 numbers ? Why not 18 numbers ? Or 20?
Why betting more numbers is going to change my odds ?!
Oh dear $80k illegal computer
100,000 data bank
You need good eyesight, strong pair of legs and functioning brain
Wtf?!?!?!
Quote from: Steve on Oct 05, 08:30 AM 2018
Nimo you've said many things that are incorrect and indicate you have no idea. First you criticize ap, now you are an ap? Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies.
Nope, not a AP. I play online, with a team. Multiple systems all at once. Same idea as playing a team with AP. As for cookies, I know my way around the kitchen so I can make my own. As for becoming a AP, I value e my time too much to spend that much time going from casino to casino, country to country , worrying about detection or hours and hours of tracking. Too much like a job, I spend 2-3 hours a day in my office, maybe another hour reading, the rest of the time I spend with my wife, kids and living my life doing what I want.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 08:53 AM 2018So what ?
Its fine, learning is good. You know i started ignorant and truely clueless too. We all do. But we quickly learn when we get our heads out of our asses and actually try to understand what's being said, and put the actual truth before what we want to be the truth.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 08:53 AM 2018Do i need a computer that costs >80k in order to place bet that consists of 15 numbers ?
No but you do to get a super high edge, or an edge at all on many wheels.
Maybe you know a better way to measure the most critical variables that determine the winning number. What is it? Repeaters?
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 08:53 AM 2018That’s nonsense. This business model is totally shit !
Im sure you can get a 150% edge too.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 08:53 AM 2018What edge do I get from betting 15 numbers ? Why not 18 numbers ? Or 20?
If you see the public demo recording on my site with my middle- range computer, it's betting 15 numbers, no progression, winning 93% of spins. It's actually a much higher edge if we bet 3 numbers instead, but the profit per hour is more important than edge.
Why not 20 or so numbers? Any reasonably experienced ap understands to bet only numbers with an edge.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 08:53 AM 2018Why betting more numbers is going to change my odds ?!
When you know specific numbers with better than random odds, betting as many of them as possible maximizes profit per hour. Also understand odds and payout are different. You can change odds by betting lots of random numbers. But you'll still lose because the payouts are short. You can only overcome that by increasing the accuracy of predictions to be better than random.
Quote from: luckyfella on Oct 05, 09:17 AM 2018Oh dear $80k illegal computer
Actually, legal in around half of casinos.
And nobody gives a crap if you don't like the concept of a 150% edge while i watch live from home. I like it. I do very well with it.
Quote from: luckyfella on Oct 05, 09:17 AM 2018You need good eyesight, strong pair of legs and functioning brain
If youre referring to vb, it's no comparison. If you can beat almost every wheel with 20-150% edge, while you watch multiple teams (who don't even need to look at the wheel) via live video from the other side of the world, go do it
Quote from: Nimo on Oct 05, 09:19 AM 2018
Nope, not a AP. I play online, with a team. Multiple systems all at once. Same idea as playing a team with AP. As for cookies, I know my way around the kitchen so I can make my own. As for becoming a AP, I value e my time too much to spend that much time going from casino to casino, country to country , worrying about detection or hours and hours of tracking. Too much like a job, I spend 2-3 hours a day in my office, maybe another hour reading, the rest of the time I spend with my wife, kids and living my life doing what I want.
Nimo, it's quite clear you're full of shit. But i don't have time to explain why.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 05, 10:13 AM 2018
Its fine, learning is good. You know i started ignorant and truely clueless too. We all do. But we quickly learn when we get our heads out of our asses and actually try to understand what's being said, and put the actual truth before what we want to be the truth.
No but you do to get a super high edge, or an edge at all on many wheels.
Maybe you know a better way to measure the most critical variables that determine the winning number. What is it? Repeaters?
Im sure you can get a 150% edge too.
If you see the public demo recording on my site with my middle- range computer, it's betting 15 numbers, no progression, winning 93% of spins. It's actually a much higher edge if we bet 3 numbers instead, but the profit per hour is more important than edge.
Why not 20 or so numbers? Any reasonably experienced ap understands to bet only numbers with an edge.
When you know specific numbers with better than random odds, betting as many of them as possible maximizes profit per hour. Also understand odds and payout are different. You can change odds by betting lots of random numbers. But you'll still lose because the payouts are short. You can only overcome that by increasing the accuracy of predictions to be better than random.
Actually, legal in around half of casinos.
And nobody gives a crap if you don't like the concept of a 150% edge while i watch live from home. I like it. I do very well with it.
If youre referring to vb, it's no comparison. If you can beat almost every wheel with 20-150% edge, while you watch multiple teams (who don't even need to look at the wheel) via live video from the other side of the world, go do it
Steve
You are actually making the same error as many other gamblers do.
You’re assuming that the edge obtained by the computer is valid over the long term.
I have witnessed Session in real casino where a player using a computer, the player at certain point started losing patience due to the fact that the ball started to behave crazily, in which the ball was landing 2 to 3 pockets aside.
The player was covering a spot of 15 numbers too.
After dealer change, his computer was producing more correct expectations.
In short, a computer won’t raise your odd under any circumstances.
It still relies on the dealer and the wheel variables.
Understand i respond here to help. Some people pay large sums for my time. Here it's free, although i have limits.
Yes i have more experience than most people by far. No i don't know it all. But i can certainly recognize a losing approach or backwards logic when many others can't. But thats actually just basic knowledge, which members should but don't have.
It makes no difference that im admin. Im on the same level like any member. If i see bullshit, i'll explain why it's bullshit. And if people get offended, they should stop telling bullshit.
Rather than criticize me or my preferred methods, which aren't relevant at all to most discussions, understand what i say about methods that fail. Again, attack the message, not the messenger.
Its fine for someone new wanting to learn. But there are lots of people who are full of shit, and it becomes more about defending their honor instead of truth.
Perhaps don't argue with me about whose method is easier and more profitable. You're unlikely to win that debate. I don't particularly care if you don't like my methods. Don't use them. Why do you care what i do?
Likewise i don't care what you do. But i do care when members post harmful and misleading claims, that should be addressed and corrected, to ensure positive progress instead of bullshit and circles.
I suspect that Roulettebeater isn't understanding what VB is.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 10:40 AM 2018You’re assuming that the edge obtained by the computer is valid over the long term.
Say what?
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 10:40 AM 2018I have witnessed Session in real casino where a player using a computer, the player at certain point started losing patience due to the fact that the ball started to behave crazily, in which the ball was landing 2 to 3 pockets aside.
I think youre full of shit. But even if you aren't, so what if they hit the right area and just missed out? Thats actually a good sign. Because you don't know better, you think it's bad.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 10:40 AM 2018The player was covering a spot of 15 numbers too.
To have many near wins with that many numbers virtually never happens. It would likely mean the computer or application was poor.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 10:40 AM 2018After dealer change, his computer was producing more correct expectations.
Dealer has no effect on the physics.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 10:40 AM 2018In short, a computer won’t raise your odd under any circumstances.
Oh dear jesus, why? Son, you got no idea.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 10:40 AM 2018It still relies on the dealer and the wheel variables.
Unless the dealer spins the rotor super fast or closes bets super early, the dealer is negligible.
And the computer measures the variables. Thats what its for.
Rb, please. This is hurting my head. Youve got no idea.
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 10:52 AM 2018
I suspect that Roulettebeater isn't understanding what VB is.
VB?
We are talking about computers not about VB.
VB isn't how the computers work.
Stop it. Please.
Steve,
never understimate people you don't really know.
look here, i have my own computer, here are two examples how my computer predicts the winning number.
the only thing is that my computer predicts two hot spots on the wheel, so far i am not able technically to make the computer predicts only one side... so i have two cover both zones.
what do you think?
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 11:00 AM 2018
VB?
We are talking about computers not about VB.
VB isn't how the computers work.
There's the problem. You don't know what VB is.
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 11:29 AM 2018
There's the problem. You don't know what VB is.
VB with naked eyes?
no, thank you! i went far than that.. i have automated it, automated the whole process!
:xd:
you can keep thinking whatever you think about me
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 11:34 AM 2018
VB with naked eyes?
no, thank you! i went far than that.. i have automated it, automated the whole process!
:xd:
you can keep thinking whatever you think about me
No you didn't. For starters what you're doing isn't vb. You're not taking into account the speed of the wheel, or the distance the ball will travel on the track.
Yes, naked VB can be a tough skill to master.
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 11:37 AM 2018No you didn't. For starters what you're doing isn't vb. You're not taking into account the speed of the wheel, or the distance the ball will travel on the track.
didn't you look into the images i uploaded?
i invite you again to look at them. There you can see that the predictions are OK.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 11:39 AM 2018
didn't you look into the images i uploaded?
i invite you again to look at them. There you can see that the predictions are OK.
The graphics don't demonstrate VB.
Can you explain the program?
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 11:40 AM 2018
The graphics don't demonstrate VB.
Can you explain the program?
well, as i said VB with naked eyes is for starters.
i went beyond that, i have created an algorithm that estimates the speeds and take in input the last 4 numbers, based on which the program will run a simulation and predicts the most probable zone on which the ball will land.
the only issue i am facing right now is that the program pointing to two zones on the wheel. i am not able at the moment to invalidate one zone during the prediction.
the program is suitable for online casino as well as land casino.
i can't give more details on the algorithm (in public), guys who share same interest and have demonstrable skills in this domain are welcome to contact me.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 11:47 AM 2018
well, as i said VB with naked eyes is for starters.
i went beyond that, i have created an algorithm that estimates the speeds and take in input the last 4 numbers, based on which the program will run a simulation and predicts the most probable zone on which the ball will land.
the only issue i am facing right now is that the program pointing to two zones on the wheel. i am not able at the moment to invalidate one zone during the prediction.
the program is suitable for online casino as well as land casino.
i can't give more details on the algorithm (in public), guys who share same interest and have demonstrable skills in this domain are welcome to contact me.
Why would you want to average the last four wheel speeds? And how are you even measuring wheel speed?
That's not vb and unfortunately it won't work.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 11:47 AM 2018
well, as i said VB with naked eyes is for starters.
i went beyond that, i have created an algorithm that estimates the speeds and take in input the last 4 numbers, based on which the program will run a simulation and predicts the most probable zone on which the ball will land.
the only issue i am facing right now is that the program pointing to two zones on the wheel. i am not able at the moment to invalidate one zone during the prediction.
the program is suitable for online casino as well as land casino.
i can't give more details on the algorithm (in public), guys who share same interest and have demonstrable skills in this domain are welcome to contact me.
Why would you want to average the last four wheel speeds? And how are you even measuring wheel speed?
That's not vb and unfortunately it won't work.
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 11:56 AM 2018
Why would you want to average the last four wheel speeds? And how are you even measuring wheel speed?
That's not vb and unfortunately it won't work.
well, its easy to say it won't work.
but what about the complex algorithm, for sure you have no idea how complex it\s.
believe me it's very complex as i took years developing it. any way i never say that the predictions are 100% accurate. but i can say the success rate is 70%. That's more than enough to make profits.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 12:01 PM 2018
well, its easy to say it won't work.
but what about the complex algorithm, for sure you have no idea how complex it\s.
believe me it's very complex as i took years developing it. any way i never say that the predictions are 100% accurate. but i can say the success rate is 70%. That's more than enough to make profits.
How are you measuring wheel speed?
The problem is you've written an algorithm based on a bad concept.
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 12:04 PM 2018How are you measuring wheel speed?
I use some physics formula. believe me the speed is not the problem! rather it's the deceleration.
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 12:04 PM 2018
How are you measuring wheel speed?
The problem is you've written an algorithm based on a bad concept.
bad concept?
you making me now laugh, laugh ....and laugh
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 12:09 PM 2018
I use some physics formula. believe me the speed is not the problem! rather it's the deceleration.
Then you're not measuring wheel speed. I sense a bad translation of concepts. I don't think you're understanding what I mean by measuring wheel speed.
Steve,
I am eager to know your opinion.
You are probably the only guy who understands how this system in background works.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Oct 05, 01:32 PM 2018
Steve,
I am eager to know your opinion.
You are probably the only guy who understands how this system in background works.
Roulettebeater,
You never explained how you measure wheel speed. Wheel speed is a measurement of how fast the wheel is rotating. This isn't something that you can average. In order to measure it you've got to actually look at the wheel.
duplicate
Hi Roulettebeater
I am more interested in how online casino reacts to your winnings.
You wrote that you limit yourself with winners.
If you have such a big edge, the wins could be big.
I would like to invest some minimum capital and want to see how it can grow.
But I understand that the problem is not in winning, just limiting stakes, to stay under radar.
General
As I previously said, the speed is being correctly measured, I can’t tell more details.
@Ozon:
I had never payouts problems with Online casino, supposing your are a regular Player who plays every day, all what you need to do is to not make more than 200 euro per day.
Roulettebeater,
For several reasons I don't believe what you're doing will work.
1. You don't understand the fundamentals of VB.
2. Wheel speeds can't be averaged. Doing so negates the prediction. (As a professional I know what I'm talking about and chances are I've been doing this since before you were born.)
3. What you're describing is just a very crude form of dealer's signature.
Testing is simple. Make a prediction for a number. Record the actual outcome. Next plot the distance in pockets from the predicted to the actual number hit and plot it to create a standard deviation graph. The area around 0 pockets is where you want to see highest number of hits. What you're measuring is the accuracy of your predictions and limiting the degrees of freedom of the test.
Collect at least 1000 predictions and continue collecting hits until the predicted area exceeds at least four standard deviations. If you're not there after 7k spins, then you're wasting your time. (Unless you see the section rising above five or six standard deviations after only 500 or 600 spins and the chi is going through the roof.) The shape of the graph will also be a good indicator.
Best of luck,
-The General
Anytime you change a parameter you need to restart the test. Out of sample testing is always recommended as well.
If you're planning on playing using the method online, then forget about it.
1. Wheel speeds and ball speeds can't usually be accurately measured because the video feeds are often poor.
2. Many online wheels have a built in servo that changes the wheel speed during the spin negating the measurement again. also because of poor video.
3. If you are lucky enough to win then software will discover what you're doing and freeze your account. The software is designed to weed out consistent winners and freeze their accounts regardless of how they're winning. Exceptions are in games like poker and sports betting.
Quote from: The General on Oct 05, 03:37 PM 2018
Anytime you change a parameter you need to restart the test. Out of sample testing is always recommended as well.
If you're planning on playing using the method online, then forget about it.
1. Wheel speeds and ball speeds can't usually be accurately measured because the video feeds are often poor.
2. Many online wheels have a built in servo that changes the wheel speed during the spin negating the measurement again. also because of poor video.
3. If you are lucky enough to win then software will discover what you're doing and freeze your account. The software is designed to weed out consistent winners and freeze their accounts regardless of how they're winning. Exceptions are in games like poker and sports betting.
i disagree!