I will record tonight first video on how my cross- reference works... I am not interested in sale !
The goal of this thread is to share tips and tricks that relates to this system..
The method is based somehow on physics and it shows some good result, but not all the time, my goal is to identify the intervals when this system works at best ..
Stay tuned, I will record first video tonight and share it here
You need the variables, results, the understanding of the dynamic relationships between them all, and cross referencing data so you dont need as many spins for statistical relevance. The last two are the hardest part. You can code automated testing software to narrow down the algorithms.
If you simulate static conditions, and gradually change conditiins, you'll better able to understand the dynamic relationships.
Do it right, and you can increase the accuracy of predictions for anything that can be predicted. I do a similar thing with my cryptocurrency trading bot.
You should also have rating algorithms to assess risks. Some wheels can be very predictable in some conditions, but too volatile in changing conditions.
I will show in the video a demo, the predictions will be validated against a live wheel...
I need three variables for the predictions :
1- launch point (exact pocket)
2- exit/drop point ( exact pocket)
3- result
I input these three variables into a program (the interface is simply a cmd window)... for now I can’t give details about the algorithm ...
I really hope that you view the predications and tell me if there is somehow enough accuracy... next step is to go into a privat chat with some of you who have skills in order to improve the algorithm
Quote from: Steve on May 21, 06:44 AM 2019
You should also have rating algorithms to assess risks. Some wheels can be very predictable in some conditions, but too volatile in changing conditions.
That’s my problem !
Changing conditions ! I need support ... I have the algorithm but still can’t asapt it to these conditions, hopefully you can work with me
I've already given all i will. The clues are the same and dont change.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 21, 06:51 AM 2019
That’s my problem !
Changing conditions ! I need support ... I have the algorithm but still can’t asapt it to these conditions, hopefully you can work with me
Where is the rotor? How you predict where it will be, when the ball will land? You have any partners already?
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 21, 06:49 AM 2019
I will show in the video a demo, the predictions will be validated against a live wheel...
I need three variables for the predictions :
1- launch point (exact pocket)
2- exit/drop point ( exact pocket)
3- result
I input these three variables into a program (the interface is simply a cmd window)... for now I can’t give details about the algorithm ...
I really hope that you view the predications and tell me if there is somehow enough accuracy... next step is to go into a privat chat with some of you who have skills in order to improve the algorithm
If you say "somehow enough accuracy", then probably it will not work, because you need a logical answer, Why it should work, if you hope, then chances are it will not.
Rather than talking some morse code, tell what you need, i am always ready to work with anyone real about the thing.
Quote from: Loc on May 21, 07:55 PM 2019
Where is the rotor? How you predict where it will be, when the ball will land? You have any partners already?
This is where I don't pretend to understand cross reference systems. I can get an edge with VB and DS under some conditions but rotor speed is a crucial element in both these. A 3 second rotor and a 4 second rotor will carry the ball to quite different places with the same release point, even with a constrained drop off and same scatter to help matters along.
For example, difference between 3 and 4 second rotor is 3 pockets per second. SInce we are measuring neither ball speed nor wheel speed, over 15 second spin that's 45 pockets or over 10 second spin that's 30 pockets. We don't know which, even assuming other variables are constant. And the spin could 18 secs or 8 secs or the wheel speed could be 2.5 second rotor or 6 second rotor. This will lead to totally different sectors being favoured.
RB mentions his system is VB, but since it does not involve spin data ie betting before spin, I don't see that it can be. It is more likely an AP system based on observation.
But for me to understand this system I would need to know release point, rotor speed, cw/acw, ball revolutions, struck diamond number, end result number, struck diamond scatter plot.
This seems to be much more data than is being collected. What I don't understand, I can't judge.
What I want to do is measure wheel speed and ball speed in first few revs. Then place a bet based on similar known data. Or no bet if the parameters are outside limits. Then I understand it.
Quote from: Firefox on May 21, 08:21 PM 2019
This is where I don't pretend to understand cross reference systems. I can get an edge with VB and DS under some conditions but rotor speed is a crucial element in both these. A 3 second rotor and a 4 second rotor will carry the ball to quite different places with the same release point, even with a constrained drop off and same scatter to help matters along.
For example, difference between 3 and 4 second rotor is 3 pockets per second. SInce we are measuring neither ball speed nor wheel speed, over 15 second spin that's 45 pockets or over 10 second spin that's 30 pockets. We don't know which, even assuming other variables are constant. And the spin could 18 secs or 8 secs or the wheel speed could be 2.5 second rotor or 6 second rotor. This will lead to totally different sectors being favoured.
RB mentions his system is VB, but since it does not involve spin data ie betting before spin, I don't see that it can be. It is more likely an AP system based on observation.
But for me to understand this system I would need to know release point, rotor speed, cw/acw, ball revolutions, struck diamond number, end result number, struck diamond scatter plot.
This seems to be much more data than is being collected. What I don't understand, I can't judge.
What I want to do is measure wheel speed and ball speed in first few revs. Then place a bet based on similar known data. Or no bet if the parameters are outside limits. Then I understand it.
That's true, mine collect all that data, rev, the diamond hit, rotor speed range that dealer spins and more, i wanna see how he do it.
Steve has a Xref system based on struck diamond reading, spin direction, and result. It uses computer analysis of this data. But for me it's not enough data. It would pick up wheel bias and wheels with predictable scatter. I'm uncomfortable there are too many unknown variables, and for that reason I'm unable to comprehend these methods
However since Steve sells the system as JAA, he's reluctant to give any more info. So have to respect that, I guess.
There are many variables you can add. More variables mean higher accuracy and assurance, but reduced practicality. You need a balance between accuracy, assurance and practicality to male a viable approach. Rather than a system, its an analysis method.
Would it be able to accept rotor speed as an input. I clock rotor speed manually by head count on every spin to within about 0.2 second. It's the first thing I do on a spin. I don't think that's impractical if you are used to it.
Question to the experts :
rotor speed= 1/2 ball speed > scatter = 18 pockets
rotor speed = 1/4 ball speed > scatter = 9 pockets
rotor speed = 3/4 ball speed > scatter = 22 pockets
rotor speed = ball speed > scatter = 36 pockets
According to your experience, Are these assumptions valid ?
When are you measuring ball speed, because it is constantly changing (decelerating).
In general rotor speed and ball speed are not directly relatable.
But since ball speed at fall off is usually constant, scatter is a mild function of rotor speed. More important for scatter is fret/wheel rotor design.
When rotor is traveling at half speed the ball speed, the scatter is about 12 pockets away from drop point...
That’s seems quite easy, unfortunately that’s not always the case, for example you do the calculus correctly but the ball bounces back and goes into the other direction... Bingo ! Prediction is invalid! In this case neither rocket science/ physics nor Steve can predict the final result !
This is the so called unpredictable chaos !
Bounce and scatter will be unpredictable at times. Sometimes you will get a spinner which may land anywhere.
But, you only have to be right some of the time to get a small edge. If you were right most of the time you would have a very large edge, which clearly is not the case with most VB.
On some set ups I'd agree with you that chaos reigns and obliterates the edge. Not all conditions can be beaten. That's why it's important to calculate your mean prediction errors to determine if it is worth continuing to play or look at something else.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 05:29 AM 2019
When rotor is traveling at half speed the ball speed, the scatter is about 12 pockets away from drop point...
That’s seems quite easy, unfortunately that’s not always the case, for example you do the calculus correctly but the ball bounces back and goes into the other direction... Bingo ! Prediction is invalid! In this case neither rocket science/ physics nor Steve can predict the final result !
This is the so called unpredictable chaos !
Why don't you collect the scatter data? Man, you need a soft to do that... END of story, if you wanna do it on paper in casino, or whatever, it's not the case, rather than that, you need something to get the ref number, and the winning number, assign the rotor speed to, then set the rotor speed range you want, and the soft will generate the scatter pattern.. Easy to do.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 05:29 AM 2019
When rotor is traveling at half speed the ball speed, the scatter is about 12 pockets away from drop point...
That’s seems quite easy, unfortunately that’s not always the case, for example you do the calculus correctly but the ball bounces back and goes into the other direction... Bingo ! Prediction is invalid! In this case neither rocket science/ physics nor Steve can predict the final result !
This is the so called unpredictable chaos !
Why don't you collect the scatter data? Man, you need a soft to do that... END of story, if you wanna do it on paper in casino, or whatever, it's not the case, rather than that, you need something to get the ref number, and the winning number, assign the rotor speed to, then set the rotor speed range you want, and the soft will generate the scatter pattern.. Easy to do.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 05:29 AM 2019
When rotor is traveling at half speed the ball speed, the scatter is about 12 pockets away from drop point...
That’s seems quite easy, unfortunately that’s not always the case, for example you do the calculus correctly but the ball bounces back and goes into the other direction... Bingo ! Prediction is invalid! In this case neither rocket science/ physics nor Steve can predict the final result !
This is the so called unpredictable chaos !
Your mindset is incorrect man... You need to do it just enough of times, not always. No, the scatter is not 12 pockets, you need to collect the data, and check it, end of story if you want accuracy.
PS. Did you record that movie? I wanna watch it.
Loc
No I am not wrong, or you think I came up with these conclusions without testing and collecting enough data !?
Yes I made a video, but I don’t want to post it directly on forum because I won’t be able to delete it when I want ! I am thinking to upload it to YouTube, at least there I can remove the video when I want !
You know, uncle Steve doesn’t give us the possibility to edit or delete our posts
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 08:37 AM 2019
Loc
No I am not wrong, or you think I came up with these conclusions without testing and collecting enough data !?
Yes I made a video, but I don’t want to post it directly on forum because I won’t be able to delete it when I want ! I am thinking to upload it to YouTube, at least there I can remove the video when I want !
You know, uncle Steve doesn’t give us the possibility to edit or delete our posts
Man put it on YT, and messega the link to me, i wanna check it at this moment.
Put it on You Tube.
Then you can delete if you want. I am happy to comment, but as I said my advice will likely be useless as I don't understand what you are doing without knowing wheel speed and diamond hit data as well as ball decelerations parameter.
This depends on ball size, weight, type, atmospheric conditions, wheel track conditions etc. As you found out, what works for one ball may not work for another, in fact almost certainly it wont.
I have a You Tube channel and my own wheel. Only one video at the moment. I need to do some more videos and predictions with different balls, but at the moment I only have a poor quality cam on the phone.
link:s://:.youtube.com/channel/UCc2hojgUqFv4BCrbTwLNQlw
here it is ....
link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=bA9Tz0HIrGU&feature=youtu.be
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 03:25 PM 2019
here it is ....
link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=bA9Tz0HIrGU&feature=youtu.be
There are few problems with this system.. How you gonna know the exact exit point?? THe release is ok, you can know it, but the exit not much...
Also even, previous exit point, has not much to do with next wining number, just my conclusion.
Quote from: Loc on May 22, 04:21 PM 2019
There are few problems with this system.. How you gonna know the exact exit point?? THe release is ok, you can know it, but the exit not much...
i dunno what you talking about... you are apparently not in sync..
get yourself a shower , then watch the video again..
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 04:26 PM 2019
i dunno what you talking about... you are apparently not in sync..
get yourself a bath, then watch the video again..
I don't need a bath or anything.. You should know sometimes you just don't see the wheel so good, what you gonna put if you need the exact pocket?
Quote from: Loc on May 22, 04:29 PM 2019
I don't need a bath or anything.. You should know sometimes you just don't see the wheel so good, what you gonna put if you need the exact pocket?
dude, you need the data... if the vision isn't clear.. you simply wait until you have the data!
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 04:31 PM 2019
dude, you need the data... if the vision isn't clear.. you simply wait until you have the data!
Doesn't matter.. Anyways, if you wanna improve this system, you need to put some information about how it works, my internet is shitty today, vid is lagging, and i can see sh** because of it.
Like i said, it would be good, if you put some more details, so for example
starting = 32
exit = 13
direction = cw
Let's say the prediction is 12, why it's 12 or anything else?
Quote from: Loc on May 22, 04:37 PM 2019
Doesn't matter.. Anyways, if you wanna improve this system, you need to put some information about how it works, my internet is shitty today, vid is lagging, and i can see sh** because of it.
Like i said, it would be good, if you put some more details, so for example
starting = 32
exit = 13
direction = cw
Let's say the prediction is 12, why it's 12 or anything else?
you really need a bath or a shower!
i already wrote the details of each spin!!
why 12? sorry i can't say how the algorithm works! the logic is complex, so i programmed it!
all i must do is input the data.. if you really want to know the logic or you think you are able to improve it..then its better you contact me ...
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 04:42 PM 2019
you really need a bath or a shower!
i already wrote the details of each spin!!
why 12? sorry i can't say how the algorithm works! the logic is complex, so i programmed it!
all i must do is input the data.. if you really want to know the logic or you think you are able to improve it..then its better you contact me ...
That's what we should do. Where can i talk with you? IF you don't have discord, then message me here, and say what you can say about the algorithm.
This is a common problem I face with visual ballistics. I want to know the exit point.
If the prediction is way off it's down to one or both of two things.
(a) Exit point prediction wrong
(b) Bounce or scatter was unusual eg Spinner or backward bounce.
If (a) I will want to know as I may need to adjust a parameter. If (b) I may just have to accept fate, so long as enough other scatter is sensibly predictable.
So exit point is important to adjust play. It can't be known exactly; sometimes the ball takes a shallow path, but it can be estimated within 3-5 pockets at worst. With the immersive, they usually show a slow mo so you have an opportunity to review this.
What worries me more is how the program can predict with just one result. Surely you would need say 50 spins in each direction to be worth playing or predicting.
Quote from: Firefox on May 22, 04:59 PM 2019
This is a common problem I face with visual ballistics. I want to know the exit point.
If the prediction is way off it's down to one or both of two things.
(a) Exit point prediction wrong
(b) Bounce or scatter was unusual eg Spinner or backward bounce.
If (a) I will want to know as I may need to adjust a parameter. If (b) I may just have to accept fate, so long as enough other scatter is sensibly predictable.
So exit point is important to adjust play. It can't be known exactly; sometimes the ball takes a shallow path, but it can be estimated within 3-5 pockets at worst. With the immersive, they usually show a slow mo so you have an opportunity to review this.
What worries me more is how the program can predict with just one result. Surely you would need say 50 spins in each direction to be worth playing or predicting.
50 spins? if you processing with your brain and have slow processing speed, then yes!
but the processing speed in programming is far beyond that limit!
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 05:10 PM 2019
50 spins? if you processing with your brain and have slow processing speed, then yes!
but the processing speed in programming is far beyond that limit!
Man.. You need the data to predict with accuracy... Last exit or start points mean shit, anything can happned in the next spin..
Quote from: Loc on May 22, 05:12 PM 2019
Man.. You need the data to predict with accuracy... Last exit or start points mean shit, anything can happned in the next spin..
as u talk about accuracy, how would you rate the predictions in the video today?
bad,good, or very good?
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 05:16 PM 2019
as u talk about accuracy, how would you rate the predictions in the video today?
bad,good, or very good?
Listen, 10, 20 , 30 spins means not much, unless you win 90%+ of them, then something could be on the place. The vid would be better, if you talked, but i get it. In this way you not gonna make it, last winning or starting number means almost nothing.
Also, like i said, if you don't wanna talk here, let's talk in private, but if you can't share any info, then how can anyone tell you, if that could work?
50 spins = at least 50 spins .... I hoped that was obvious.
But, I don't see how you can make any claims with no data.
Predicting straight away, and being good with no previous data, it could be good luck or it could be a brilliant alg. Impossible to tell from this, sorry.
Quote from: Loc on May 22, 05:21 PM 2019
Listen, 10, 20 , 30 spins means not much, unless you win 90%+ of them, then something could be on the place. The vid would be better, if you talked, but i get it. In this way you not gonna make it, last winning or starting number means almost nothing.
Also, like i said, if you don't wanna talk here, let's talk in private, but if you can't share any info, then how can anyone tell you, if that could work?
you are clearly newbie
your think i use relation between number, while i dive deeper into cause and effect...
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 05:28 PM 2019
you are clearly newbie
your think i use relation between number, while i dive deeper into cause and effect...
Man, you are incorrect.. He is damn right. You need more data, and if it's PC, phone, or toilet paper doesn't matter, what matter is the data you got to predict from..
Quote from: Firefox on May 22, 05:25 PM 2019
50 spins = at least 50 spins .... I hoped that was obvious.
But, I don't see how you can make any claims with no data.
Predicting straight away, and being good with no previous data, it could be good luck or it could be a brilliant alg. Impossible to tell from this, sorry.
today i made a demo... just to show you how the prediction performing..
if you would like i can make for you a detailed analysis (privately)... unfortunately i can't run statistical assessment because i need more inputs else than spins result, in other words i need sets of data (launch, exit and result)...
Quote from: Loc on May 22, 05:30 PM 2019
Man, you are incorrect.. He is damn right. You need more data, and if it's PC, phone, or toilet paper doesn't matter, what matter is the data you got to predict from..
get out my head..
How much you messed up thie flow
i don't want to discuss with you.. just let it go
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 22, 05:36 PM 2019
get out my head..
How much you messed up thie flow
i don't want to discuss with you.. just let it go
You should, because he is right..
Guys
I expected more comments and reviews.
I feel disappointed, I think I will stop recording further sessions
I'm not saying it is bad or good, just not enough data to say.
In any case only LOC and I replied, the other guys may be thinking the same as me, not enough data so didn't comment.
I wouldn't be discouraged by lack of comments on a forum though. Forums are slow in N.Hemisphere summer.
Quote from: Firefox on May 23, 09:41 AM 2019
I'm not saying it is bad or good, just not enough data to say.
In any case only LOC and I replied, the other guys may be thinking the same as me, not enough data so didn't comment.
I wouldn't be discouraged by lack of comments on a forum though. Forums are slow in N.Hemisphere summer.
It seems that most people want to play easy systems, such as notto’s gut system or ignatus layout systems... people don’t seem interested in physics based system ... anyway...
What do you mean with not much data ?
Should I gather millions of spins and test ? That’s not easy, because I need more than the spins, I need exit points and exact launch point !! How can I gather millions of datasets ! That gonna take ages !
One solution could be that I buy a real wheel and test by my own !
At the moment I don’t have a wheel , who can help me ?
No its only that your alg was working with no or minimal data in the vid.
So results are more likely random luck than anything. We can't tell.
You don't need millions of spins, but some data on that ball and wheel. Steve could tell you, but it's more like in the hundreds of spins.
You can buy a second hand wheel from ebay for £500 to £1000 from winnings. That's what I did. Cost about £900 as I remember. I won £1000s from biased wheel play 20 years back. More than covered the cost of the wheel.
I've got more than £900s worth of fun from it too. I'm always spinning it and predicting. Far better than a set of golf clubs or something like that which never gets used! It's still in top condition and I could sell it for £900 tomorrow. They don't depreciate if looked after.
Firefox
I understand what you want to say, i am not against your idea ... all I need is data, if you want we can verify the system against your wheel... then you will also know the Algorithm I use in the program...
If you spin a wheel enough times, you notice all its little predictable quirks. Every wheel is unique.
If you see only a few spins from another wheel, you wont so easily notice its quirks. It doesnt mean they arent there.
I can take a few hundred spins of data.
You can have release point, spin direction, fall off number, result, and wheel speed. 21 mm Teflon ball or 18mm Teflon ball. You can have tilted wheel or as level as I can make it.
Steve can have the same results if he wants. Then you can compare your predictions for say a given release point and wheel speed.
Steve
I agree, actually if you know the start and exit point, half the way is done !
Next is find the scatter, that not difficult.. once you know all these inputs, you can create a small program that simulates the speed of rotor and ball.. the match point is just in the middle !
The estimation for the next spin won’t differ much than previous, I use 25% difference factor, that’s valid Since we playing in feedback mode
Quote from: Firefox on May 23, 11:07 AM 2019
I can take a few hundred spins of data.
You can have release point, spin direction, fall off number, result, and wheel speed. 21 mm Teflon ball or 18mm Teflon ball. You can have tilted wheel or as level as I can make it.
Steve can have the same results if he wants. Then you can compare your predictions for say a given release point and wheel speed.
That would be great, If you want we can join and make live session .. you , Steve and myself
There are ways of predicting spins before ball release. It has limitations and doesn't beat most wheels. Still enough to be viable. But If you can code, why not develop a roulette computer? Overall they are far better. Quicker and more accurate.
Advantage of prediction before ball release as I see it, is you can play online.
Firefox
Yes it’s for online, but can also use it in real casino.
Firefox
How can I receive the spins sets from
your wheel?
Today I tested again, in one session where rotor was traveling quite fast, as well as the dealer was spinning the ball somehow differently, that caused the ball drop to be chaotic, the ball hit very frequently the horizontal diamond... all these conditions made the wheel a true chaotic system...
I have no idea how one can defeat the wheel under these conditions... it seems impossible !
The dealer has sweet FA control over which diamond is dominant in the long term. DDs are determined by wheel tilt and ball track imperfections.
A dealer may control release speeds, but take 100 random from one dealer, and 100 random spins from another dealer, and they'll have the same dominant diamonds.
If the dd seemed to change, it could be wheel property changes, or short term variance.
Quote from: Roulettebeater on May 30, 05:55 AM 2019I have no idea how one can defeat the wheel under these conditions... it seems impossible
Remember it doesn't matter what happens lots. What matters is there is an anomaly producing results that are predictable enough.
Quote from: Steve on May 30, 06:54 AM 2019
The dealer has sweet FA control over which diamond is dominant in the long term. DDs are determined by wheel tilt and ball track imperfections.
A dealer may control release speeds, but take 100 random from one dealer, and 100 random spins from another dealer, and they'll have the same dominant diamonds.
If the dd seemed to change, it could be wheel property changes, or short term variance.
that can be true, but the wheel under these conditions is a proper chaotic system... there is nothing can be done to fine tune the predictions.
the best thing is to not play while these conditions are met.
the conditions are : Very Fast rotor, ball hitting horizontal diamonds.
Quote from: Steve on May 30, 06:57 AM 2019
Remember it doesn't matter what happens lots. What matters is there is an anomaly producing results that are predictable enough.
my cross reference system showing solid results under ideal conditions:
1- steady dealer
2- slow to medium fast rotor
3- drop point is smooth (ball hit vertical diamonds, drop point is 90 degree, when ball hits horizontal diamond, it deflects its trajectory and becomes unpredictable)
for the rest of the time, the system isnt efficient, neither any other system!