This is my new project. Not finished yet.(no bets)
I've only made a program to show triggers, and I must say, it's a very strong trigger. (based on study of wheeldistances) A doubletrigger is used. Only considering spin distances on the live wheel: When 2 distances are LOW LOW -> All HIGHER distances are bet. or HIGH HIGH -> All LOWER distances are bet. ("HIGHER" that means greater distance than second last spin. "LOWER" distance is less than second last spin). Furthermore I limit the outcome to 3-7 for LOW (trigger only when hit within this range) for HIGH 12-16. This is first for limiting the bet-range, second these distances together with doubletriggers proven to be a strong
Only two "problems": First it's many numbers bet. Second sometimes it takes many spins before a trigger appear.
Best thing is very good W/L ratio. (Because of strong trigger)
For LOW the bets would be:
3: Dist 4-18 is bet. 14*2=28 numbers
4: 5-18, 13*2 26 numbers
5: 6-18, 12*2 24 numbers
6: 7-18, 11*2 22 numbers
7: 9-18, 10*2 20 numbers
Here is my first result (From Live-spins)
WWWWWWLLWWWWWWWLWLWLLWWWWWLWWWLLWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLW
Try it out. Any ideas/comments/tweaks? are welcome. (Before I finish it)
How to use the tracker. When trigger appear: Higher TRIGGER -> All distances below the currect distance is bet.
Lower TRIGGER -> All distances above current dist are bet.
(I skipped using cw and ccw Because you can never be sure of the outcome. Seems to be very random.)
I inputed some numbers, It doesnt always say trigger after 2 Highs or Lows, and whats with the last two numbers?
your W/L looks great
Yes, :) Well, that's because i limited the range (The last two numbers are same distance, neither lower nor higher)
3-7 for LOW
12-16 for HIGH
(only triggers within this range)
Quote from: ignatus on Feb 23, 02:00 PM 2013
Yes, :) Well, that's because i limited the range (The last two numbers are same distance, neither lower nor higher)
3-7 for LOW
12-16 for HIGH
(only triggers within this range)
oh, ok, got it now
Sticking in the numbers to bet on would be good. looks like nice results :thumbsup:
Hello.
Ignatus, thank you for your ideas.
You said:
3: Dist 4-18 is bet. 14*2=28 numbers , but isnt 15 * 2 = 30 numbers?
4: 5-18, 13*2 26 numbers but isnt 14 * 2 = 28 numbers?
5: 6-18, 12*2 24 numbers but isnt 13 * 2 = 26 numbers?
6: 7-18, 11*2 22 numbers but isnt 12 * 2 = 24 numbers?
7: 9-18, 10*2 20 numbers but isnt 11 * 2 = 22 numbers?
Hello.
I want to post my results of the first test (108 spins).
L W W L L W L W L L .
Total result: -118.
This is because when I won, I won between 5 and 11 chips, but when I lost, I lost between 24 and 28 chips.
Sorry.
:'(
Hello again.
I want to post results from my second test for 216 spins.
WWWLLWLWWWLLWWWWLWWWWWLWLWW
Result: -58 chips.
Sorry again. My firts results werent good.
JavierTT
Quote from: JavierTT on Feb 23, 07:24 PM 2013
This is because when I won, I won between 5 and 11 chips, but when I lost, I lost between 24 and 28 chips.
Sorry.
:'(
That is one of the essential arguments for NOT betting a kajillion numbers...even on a win...you have a ton of losing bets that minimizes the victory. Your bet selection has to just be ridiculous in order to earn. Short sessions where you get some luck can get you ahead...but ultimately all those short sessions add up to be a long session and it's just tough to get back once you're down. Systematically grinding your way back to a profit playing 24-30 numbers is nearly impossible because of the small net wins...you just need too long of a winning run to really get back. A progression steadies the ship for the short run smaller hits but then you just get nuked at some point. Your only real alternative once down is to switch gears and bet bigger to get back...and we know where that road can certainly lead..............
There are drawdowns on all play...it's an element of the game. But why put yourself in a position to fail in the first place?
When analyzing a system or style of play you have to seriously look at the rate at which it can recover and what risks must you be willing to take in order for that to happen. Betting that amount of numbers on the inside equates to a double dozens bet essentially...what's the best way to recover from a double dozens disaster? I'm asking. And if the answer is anything other than to continue playing double dozens..then shouldn't you be doing that in the first place? If it was to play double dozens in a different manner either through progressions, bet selection, stop-losses, etc. Is that the way you played this method when it showed consistent trouble?
When you get in trouble...do you change the way you play? This is all assuming you have made the decision to play this out and you aren't leaving the table for the time being or for the day. Do you play more numbers? Less numbers? Play a completely different style, go to EC's for example? Play bigger bets or smaller bets? Do you use positive or negative progressions?
If you decide to play on after dropping a couple thousand or whatever is a big enough dent to feel it alittle...do you change anything at all?
This method requires the exact same bet selection analysis as every other method...ask the hard question...you're down $5000...do I believe in it and play it out with another $5,000 or come back tomorrow and play another $5,000...whatever the time frame is...do you continue to play just as you have? Or, is there something, anything, I can do to make this a better bet selection? If there is absolutely anything possible that you can do to enhance the bet selection...you need to do it...it all starts there.
PS Is this a morph of a method that played just a couple numbers? Which one is easier to recover from? Keep in mind...when starting you haven't lost anything yet...so the best recovering method should also be the best earning method.
My two cents
Thanks. Good i got this before I started. Now, the only option left is to use cw and ccw. This will increase risk, but at the same time bets are cut in half. I'll try (same trigger but betting cw or ccw, see which one is better)...
Using the same spins for both bet selections. To figure out which one is the better? From this result same as last cw & ccw
(same as last cw & ccw)
LLLLWLLWWLLLWWLWWWLWWWLWLWWWLWLLLWLWWWLLWLWWLLWLLWLLWWWWWLWLLWLWWW = 35w
(opposite cw & ccw)¨
WWWWLWWLLLWWLLWLLLWLLLWLLLLLWLWWLLLLLLLWLWLLWWLWWLWWLLLLLWLWWLLLLL = 25w
Trigger has been changed.
For LOW: All distances 1-5 is bet.
For HIGH All distances 14-18 is bet.
This will be 18-14 numbers bet (same distance is also bet). Limiting the range will increase the risk
One idea for HIGH trigger only range 1-9 is bet (or 1-10) for LOW 9-18 (or 8-18)... This will be a 9 or 10 numbers bet. (perhaps better?) I'll see about this
Testing different triggers
Trigger distances LOW: All 1-5 HIGH: All 14-18. (Same as last cw & ccw)
lower/higher than the current distance, (opposite trend H/L)
WLLLWWLLWWLWWLWLWWWWWWwLLWLLWLWLLWLWLLLLLLLLLLLLLW
Old trigger (low low high - high high low) Same as last cw & ccw
Trigger distances LOW: 1-7 HIGH: 12-18. lower/higher than the current distance, (opposite trend H/L)
WWWWLWLLWWWWLLLWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLW
All higher/lower (same as last cw & ccw) Lower/higher than the current distance, (opposite trend H/L)
LWLLLWWLWWLWLWLWLWWWWLLLLWWLLWLWLWWWLWLLWWWLLLLLWLLWWWLLLW
From this test All higher/lower seems to be the best trigger.
do you implement your newest tweak in the tracker?
that would be nice!
betting so many numbers is very hard. U can cover the wheel almost always by combining corners, streets and splits. And u will lower your bankroll as well...
Yes, true :) Now I begun work with the new Hi/Lo-tracker, (it's a hell of a work!) 2*18*36=1296 numbers that I must enter manually looking at a wheelpic...Anyway, I will do it. But first I wish you could help testing this before I finish it. Any ideas of tweaks are welcome, and RESULTS
How to use the tracker:
CCW Dist 14 | H | Bet Lower CCW numbers
(current spin)(H/L: Higher or Lower distance compared with previous distance)(Next bet: Same distance and all 13 lower distances in ccw direction this case)
I was thinking to limit the numbers bet to 14. One at the same distance and 13 on L/H, cw/ccw direction. (That will be less numbers in some cases)
Furthermore I changed the direction of LOW at 1-5 (Always bet Higher) and HIGH 14-18 (Always bet Lower) in all other cases the bet will be in the opposite trend (H/L) This is a very common pattern that this strategy is based on.
First test (Live at DB)
WLLLLLWWWLWWLLWLWLWWWLLWW
Sooner I get result, sooner I can start doing the tracker? comon ppl
You will get results from me but I'm still figuring this all out at the moment...
Here are my results:
WWLLLLWLWLWLLLWLWWLLLWLWWLLLWLLLLWL
Not looking good to me.
Quote from: SamNL on Feb 24, 04:21 PM 2013
Here are my results:
WWLLLLWLWLWLLLWLWWLLLWLWWLLLWLLLLWL
Not looking good to me.
Thanks for testing. Why not? Hits seems to be pretty regular?
It will be less numbers at some distances: distance (Low: higher distances are bet) +1 unit at same distance in case of repeats: distance 5 (14 numbers) dist 6 (13 numbers) 7 (12 numbers) 8 (11 numbers) 9 (10 numbers) 10 (9 numbers) 11 (8 numbers) 12 (7 numbers) 13 (6 numbers)...(same for higher bet, but opposite) distances 1-4 (14 numbers) distances (15-18) 14 numbers...
That's the best I can figure. Other ideas?? I tried different triggers, this one seems to be better. But cw and ccw can be a problem, Yes. Following cw/ccw gave most hits, so that was the only option. Otherwise it would be too many numbers. :/
Two facts about this Hi/Lo strategy:* Following cw/ccw gives most hits.
* HLHLHL-pattern is very common when studing Live-wheeldistances. See yourself? (this is the trigger bet)
Testing triggers:
WLLLLWLWLLLwLLwLLLLW (hiLo-trigger: All H/L are bet)
LLLLWWLLWLLWWWLLWWWLW (HiLo2-trigger: Limited Range(High 14-18, Low 1-5)
WLWLWLWWLWLLWLWWLLLLW (HiLo3-trigger)
HiLo3: cw/ccw is skipped
8 numbers bet in both directions=16 numbers bet.
Limited range triggers (High 14-18, Low 1-5)
High trigger: Distances bet: 2-10
Low trigger: Distances bet: 8-16
Just a tool to study the wheelmovement.
I'll use this and try to find the best trigger bets (perhaps you could help with that also?) Sectors will be used: Starting from 0 then in clockwise direction (each sector is 6 numbers, sector 1 seven) 1,2,3,4,5,6.. (see pic)
Using sectors is great. That will be a 6 numbers bet....only to find the best trigger.
Included in this tracker
* Distance
* H/L (Lower or Higher distance, compared with previous distance)
* cw/ccw
* sectors
good thing you started reading about ball movement but at least give credit to where it is due
Quote from: marvin on Feb 25, 07:25 AM 2013
good thing you started reading about ball movement but at least give credit to where it is due
Thanks. Well, now I wish to find a strong trigger for sector bets. Any help with that would be great
cheers
Are the sectors with 6 numbers the 6 number pye sectors on this kimo star thingy...
Quote from: Kingspin on Feb 25, 09:17 AM 2013
Are the sectors with 6 numbers the 6 number pye sectors on this kimo star thingy...
Yes, I will now develop this further and include
Sector Movements in this tracker. :) brb..
This could work. Sectors and movement :thumbsup:
Ignatus...I just cut and pasted a portion of a note I sent you earlier in the month when this was called wheelmov strategy...thought it might be worth something
I am not a wheel bias guy...but if you are...you will want to keep the numbers separated and classified by wheel
Thousands and thousands of spins...also...remember averages aren't everything
I don't see any numbers over 18...does your proposed method not need data regarding whether it's clockwise or counterclockwise from the last pocket hit? Might be useful data while you are tracking. Whether you think the data has bearing on whatever you are going to do or not...the more data you have, the more accurate and the more thorough...the easier it will be to make a basis for your next method...plus...they all tend to morph...so if you have data that's useless now...might be nice when someone suggests a tweak to already have the data at your fingertips and not have to backtrack and recalculate.
Log every bit of data you can...and you only have to do it once...then you can apply whatever method you formulate in the future much much much easier.
A few things that you may want to consider when taking this path
Did the ball move forward on the wheel or backwards from the last pocket?
if it went backwards 8 pockets ( it needs to be logged as minus 8 ) and the next one went forward 8 pockets...your average is now 0...which wasn't anywhere close on either spin
Make sure your data is good...remember garbage in...garbage out
Is there any way to track wheel sectors and hot numbers simultaneously? How about neighbors to the hot numbers?
When coming up with an overall method and gameplan....these may all be important things to consider.
When the ball is moving x amount of pockets is anything else "randomly" happening that you can identify.
It would take me more time just to figure out how exactly I wanted to develop a comprehensive tracker than you have in your preliminary testing.
Are there times that happen on a regular basis when pocket movements are x? Are the pocket movements totally random with no discernable pattern whatsoever...or do they tend to move in waves like repeating numbers? Would probably be interesting to look at and have some thoughts about.
Maybe not a single thing comes out of a ridiculously involved testing process...or maybe a light goes on that gives you something 10% new that allows you to make a better planned attack, even if it only happens every x amount of spins. Sometimes you just have to run all the numbers to rule certain things as unviable or open your eyes to other potential possibilities that you had never before even considered.
Just throwing some things out there for your consideration.
PS Less numbers are a good thing
I really think if you spend ALOT of time making a really comprehensive logging/tracking system that has a ton of different potential input parameters. I believe you will be far far ahead versus seemingly starting from scratch every single time a new variant rises. I am not a computer guy so I don't know the process...would assume it would be rigorous. But if it's possible... may save you a ridiculous amount of time with the next 531 variations of this theme and the 24,312 methods you will spawn after that.
Yes, many good ideas. Thanks :) Yes, I must only find a strong trigger now, The tracker is finished (i didn't succeed in making the sectormovements. It took me 2 days to make the wheeldistance formula) I won't spend another 2 days trying to fix the sectormoves. It's as good as it can get now. Sectors, wheeldistances, cw/ccw and H/L distances are shown. This should be enough data to find a strong trigger bet.
Spin4Fun is testing my strategies with his bot. (thousands of live-spins)..... when I've found a trigger I can start making the software. Anyone can use the tracker "HiLo4" and come up with ideas. That's what this forum is about? Sharing ideas/testing strategies
(Sectors shown in pic)
cheers :)
This sector idea looks promising , i will give this a whirl tonight on fun chips at smart live , gosh i had a twat of a game earlier , i bet big on number 12 and it missed , bankroll gone , the very next spin have a guess what number hit - yep number 12. I hate this fecking game sometimes..
Quote from: Kingspin on Feb 25, 02:37 PM 2013
This sector idea looks promising , i will give this a whirl tonight on fun chips at smart live , gosh i had a twat of a game earlier , i bet big on number 12 and it missed , bankroll gone , the very next spin have a guess what number hit - yep number 12. I hate this fecking game sometimes..
Yes, that great. Any idea for a trigger is welcome. And when we find it, spin4fun can test it for 1000s of live spins, to see if it works in the long run. :)
I gave this a try on
fun chips over 31 spins , not many spins i know but here are the results , below
WWLWWLLLLLLWLLLLLWLLWLLLLWLLLLW.
Well i would have been £82 richer with pound chips on this game. :)
Not good flat bet which suggests over longer spin tests a looser probably. :(
This is why roulette sucks at times , we win it all one game or maybe 2 or 3 or 4 then loose it all on another day.
Progression standard 6 number progression .
1 | bet | 1 | 6 / 6 | 30 |
2 | bet | 1 | 12 / 12 | 24 |
3 | bet | 1 | 18 / 18 | 18 |
4 | bet | 1 | 24 / 24 | 12 |
5 | bet | 1 | 30 / 30 | 6 |
6 | bet | 2 | 42 / 42 | 30 |
7 | bet | 2 | 54 / 54 | 18 |
8 | bet | 2 | 66 / 66 | 6 |
9 | bet | 3 | 84 / 84 | 24 |
10 | bet | 3 | 102 / 102 | 6 |
11 | bet | 4 | 126 / 126 | 18 |
12 | bet | 5 | 156 / 156 | 24 |
13 | bet | 6 | 192 / 192 | 24 |
14 | bet | 7 | 234 / 234 | 18 |
15 | bet | 8 | 282 / 282 | 6 |
16 | bet | 10 | 342 / 342 | 18 |
17 | bet | 12 | 414 / 414 | 18 |
18 | bet | 14 | 498 / 498 | 6 |
Quote from: ignatus on Feb 25, 02:10 PM 2013
Yes, many good ideas. Thanks :) Yes, I must only find a strong trigger now, The tracker is finished (i didn't succeed in making the sectormovements. It took me 2 days to make the wheeldistance formula) I won't spend another 2 days trying to fix the sectormoves. It's as good as it can get now. Sectors, wheeldistances, cw/ccw and H/L distances are shown. This should be enough data to find a strong trigger bet.
My main point was that if you take your time and make a very good tracker with built in contingencies you wouldn't be in the situation you are in right now...just settling...because you're tired of screwing with it. Do something really well in the first place and it saves time and aggravation down the road many times over. I'll stop now...
Nothing wrong with experimenting roulette key, i like to see multiple attempts at trying to solve a problem this is how
lessons are learned. I will donate some money to ignatus for his efforts if ignatus wishes. This latest method looks good.
Quote from: Kingspin on Feb 25, 03:47 PM 2013
Nothing wrong with experimenting roulette key, i like to see multiple attempts at trying to solve a problem this is how
lessons are learned. I will donate some money to ignatus for his efforts if ignatus wishes. This latest method looks good.
I wasn't critical of experimenting at all. In fact just the opposite, my thoughts were towards making his experimentation more thorough, quicker and allow enhancements to be seen earlier. If a tracker was built that had ALOT of features and probabilities for variations that could be seen at the inception of a methods first incarnation. It would speed the development and tweaks of the system much more rapidly and painlessly. Saving tons of grief while constantly moving forward. This is business...you are not efficient if you are doing the same thing time and time again.
If someone thinks they have a great idea that is worth pursuing and asking other people to help pursue it with them...I just think they should do what is necessary on their part as well. If ideas are just thrown at the wall to see what will stick and have people chasing their tails just to have a complete reboot or go off on some tangent in a completely different direction a week or possibly only a couple days later it just seems like an awful lot of wasted time and energy that could have been better directed if the whole process was approached in a different manner....a better thought out and executed manner.
Sorry...I have my self-employed goggles on here and I would be pulling out what's left of my hair if my guys were approaching things in this haphazardous manner.
Not trying to stifle experimentation or innovation...just saying...there is a way to focus these energies and be constructive about it.
Quote from: Kingspin on Feb 25, 03:34 PM 2013
I gave this a try on fun chips over 31 spins , not many spins i know but here are the results , below
WWLWWLLLLLLWLLLLLWLLWLLLLWLLLLW.
Well i would have been £82 richer with pound chips on this game. :)
Not good flat bet which suggests over longer spin tests a looser probably. :(
This is why roulette sucks at times , we win it all one game or maybe 2 or 3 or 4 then lose it all on another day.
Progression standard 6 number progression .1 | bet | 1 | 6 / 6 | 30 |
2 | bet | 1 | 12 / 12 | 24 |
3 | bet | 1 | 18 / 18 | 18 |
4 | bet | 1 | 24 / 24 | 12 |
5 | bet | 1 | 30 / 30 | 6 |
6 | bet | 2 | 42 / 42 | 30 |
7 | bet | 2 | 54 / 54 | 18 |
8 | bet | 2 | 66 / 66 | 6 |
9 | bet | 3 | 84 / 84 | 24 |
10 | bet | 3 | 102 / 102 | 6 |
11 | bet | 4 | 126 / 126 | 18 |
12 | bet | 5 | 156 / 156 | 24 |
13 | bet | 6 | 192 / 192 | 24 |
14 | bet | 7 | 234 / 234 | 18 |
15 | bet | 8 | 282 / 282 | 6 |
16 | bet | 10 | 342 / 342 | 18 |
17 | bet | 12 | 414 / 414 | 18 |
18 | bet | 14 | 498 / 498 | 6 |
What was your trigger? I haven't done anything yet, As far as I know. Only testing some HiLo-triggers..... Well, using cw and ccw can be a real problem, long losing streaks etc (+too many numbers bet) . How to avoid this? Find a good trigger. That's all I'm sayin, I will not fail again, ......6 numbers bet for one sector is a good bet. That's what I figure now, Seems like I have to do it all myself again, testing different triggers for the sector-bets...
Sorry ignatus i did not really have a specific trigger all i did was bet as the tracker suggested!. i just did a .live 25 spin test on smart live and got these results LLLLLLLLLLLWWLWLLLLLLLLLW.. I am going to do more tests with different triggers and tests by laying numbers down for a few bets and see which works best, as is pretty obvious with no specific trigger we are seeing draw downs that would be uncomfortable in real play. This just shows how volatile the game is. I like the idea with the sectors , just need to experiment a little. My own opinion is that a trigger could be to bet only when a sector has not repeated for x amount of times , then start a bet trying to get a repeat but bringing in a second sector to bet on also after a few spins , so we start with six numbers and then after a few losses bring in a second 6 number section and possibly using some attila progression maybe. I like to do these kind of bets you can win big at times. The amount of sector systems i have tried it endless but the guy who designed the wheel was just a genius at defeating every attempt to make a fantastic winning method. :(
There are a few options here. What I know so far;
Fiddling around trying to find something that could give an advantage; a pattern or a movement on the livewheel.
*following cw/ccw is the best option.
*The 2-step move
*The H/L-distance pattern.
This haven't been tried before, really, not with 6 numbers sectorbet. I will test this now, see what result I get.
Random deviation could happen, ofcourse. But with 6 numbers it will be easier...I don't know why I didn't continue with this before.
Here are the old results
Been looking at wheel movements now again, this was my first result (live spins)
3120122111211212322323113012232120103223212131122112121212
As you can see the 1 & 2 movement is most common. That is the wheel divided into 6 sectors. Distance calculated from the sector last hit. So distance can be 0,1,2,3.
First Result (Live at DB): Sector distances 1 & 2
Distance 1 (Following cw/ccw)
H cw 1
L ccw 0
L cw 0
H ccw 1
H cw 2
L ccw 1
H ccw 2
L ccw 1 W
L 0 0
H cw 2
L ccw 1
L ccw 1 W
H cw 2
L ccw 1
L ccw 1 W
H ccw 2
L ccw 2
L cw 2
H ccw 3
L ccw 0
H ccw 1 W
Distance 2
H cw 1
L ccw 0
L cw 0
H ccw 1
H cw 2
L ccw 1
H ccw 2 W
L ccw 1
L 0 0
H cw 2
L ccw 1
L ccw 1
H cw 2
L ccw 1
L ccw 1
H ccw 2 W
L ccw 2 W
L cw 2
H ccw 3
L ccw 0
H ccw 1
Another trigger idea is sector repeat
H cw 1
L ccw 0 W
L cw 0 W
H ccw 1
H cw 2
L ccw 1
H ccw 2
L ccw 1
L 0 0 W
H cw 2
L ccw 1
L ccw 1
H cw 2
L ccw 1
L ccw 1
H ccw 2
L ccw 2
L cw 2
H ccw 3
L ccw 0 W
H ccw 1
More spins. Tell me about your idea of a trigger?...
H ccw 1
H ccw 3
L cw 2
L cw 2
L cw 0
H cw 1
H ccw 2
H cw 3
L ccw 3
L ccw 3
L ccw 0
H cw 1
H cw 3
L ccw 2
L ccw 0
H ccw 1
L cw 1
H cw 1
L ccw 1
H ccw 3
L cw 1
H ccw 2
L ccw 2
L cw 1
L cw 2
Thinking now, perhaps a is better to bet a "hot sector". I've had best success playing with hotnumbers. Now why should not a "hot sector" work? Just an idea
Track for X spins, bet the sector hit most for X spins, then do a retracking
ignatus
Some of the first trackers you wrote were for just that. I have them archived. It would seem you have come full circle!
A fellow named Dairmaid did this study a few years ago. He was making a killing. A fellow called him a "crash test dummy" because he was sure to hit the wall. He did.
Sectors will get hot and they will get cold. Gamlet called it "Fire and Ice" and his system was the best I ever saw.
Good luck and don't give up!
Sam