I must admit I have always had my suspicions about online casinos... my suspicions grow in certain situations that occur too often. For example in street betting. I noticed when I first dabbled in online roulette (at one particular casino) that more line numbers appeared than I had noticed at B&M casinos.
Extraordinary sequences of 19-20-21 kept appearing for thousands of spins. Eventually I got on board and if I waited for one of the numbers to appear it was almost a forgone conclusion that one of the three would appear again withing 5 spins. I did very nicely for many hours of play. Eventually however it stopped. One of the three would appear at the start of every game and then up to 200 spins would occur before another one of the street repeated.
Just a coincidence?? Yep, that’s what I put it down to. However after more than 3 years of playing I have seen the same thing happen (with different street bets) and certain areas of the wheel hit, on too many occasions. The secret I believe is to see when they are cheating and how they are cheating and get on board.
They are just cheating individual players? or are generating the numbers to all players? I bet for the second option. Therefore if you see they are delivering amazing line sequences or hitting particular sections of the wheel, you can almost guarantee this will happen for an extended period. That’s when you can clean up!!
I guess I study this similarly to the dealer signature method at B&M casinos. The difference being it is much more obvious at online casinos, which when you work out the cheating strategy you can actually make big bucks online!
I Interested to hear of other regular online players experiences.
Atte.
TheRouletter (link:://"link:://:.theroulettestrategy.com")
Well i have played as much online roulette as much as any one you can name on this forum , i have played "tons" of online roulette.
The question is do on line casino's cheat, or do some online casino's cheat. The answer without a question of a doubt is that yes cheating is going off with online roulette. The big question is how do they do it and the answer is there is different methods involved.
There is several methods used to rob gamblers online. Rigged rng is common. " Live wheels" that are not actually live at all, bets can be manipulated easily with live roulette. Bet blocking is another thing they do , "bets not accepted" flashes up due to some technical
reason , the fact is they don't want your bet because they know it's a winner!.. ;D
I have quit the game online now permanent too because of all the cheating going off.
@ kingspin
Could you please elaborate on which "live" wheels were iffy ??
That kinda information would be v v helpful to anybody actually playing roulette n not RNG ;)
O0
At a live online casino (Celtic), twice i've seen a ball land on a number then jump out to a nearby pocket. Funny thing is, i saw it happen on their European wheel, then later on, I saw it happen on their American wheel. Was I seeing things? But it was so obvious. Never before had I seen such a thing on a roulette wheel.
Carch, it's normal. Actually low profile wheel pockets are created just for that. To randomize results. For example in Playtech live wheels dealers very frequently through the balls out of the wheels. I mean balls jump a lot. It makes VB harder. It's not cheating.
guys, i want to explain for you some problem which many may encounter here.
You gotta realize, that if u use the same patterns (especially frequently) you gonna lose eventually. What happens with online live wheels?
Let's say you tested some method. And it worked on a paper (or with RX -- which is much more convenient). You took some spins from a couple of german wheels which are available online.
you went to local casino a couple of times. And it worked as well. you start thinking u got a winning method. But it is not quite true very likely. It may be a winning method if u don't use it too much. Which is fine when you went a couple of times to real casino.
But then you start using in on online wheels. And do it everyday. It is so easy, no need to drive somewhere. Here is computer, and You can do it easily between other things u do at home. And after a couple of winning times
the method starts losing. Oh, you say. "They are cheating!" Not necessarily true.
Roulette is "cheating" on you. Roulette does what it does. Kills any strict patterns. So here the story goes...
Roulette let u win a little and then you lose...
But if u do it at local casino or at RX with certain wheels as frequently as u did online, you will get roughly the same results...
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 16, 06:00 PM 2013
guys, i want to explain for you some problem which many may encounter here.
You gotta realize, that if u use the same patterns (especially frequently) you gonna lose eventually. What happens with online live wheels?
Let's say you tested some method. And it worked on a paper (or with RX -- which is much more convenient). You took some spins from a couple of german wheels which are available online.
you went to local casino a couple of times. And it worked as well. you start thinking u got a winning method. But it is not quite true very likely. It may be a winning method if u don't use it too much. Which is fine when you went a couple of times to real casino.
But then you start using in on online wheels. And do it everyday. It is so easy, no need to drive somewhere. Here is computer, and You can do it easily between other things u do at home. And after a couple of winning times
the method starts losing. Oh, you say. "They are cheating!" Not necessarily true.
Roulette is "cheating" on you. Roulette does what it does. Kills any strict patterns. So here the story goes...
Roulette let u win a little and then you lose...
But if u do it at local casino or at RX with certain wheels as frequently as u did online, you will get roughly the same results...
The interesting part in all of this is the number of spins we try out methods on. Even 1 billion spins are not enough! Its a freaking black hole that contracts itself.
The roulette is adaptive and patterns are consumed and are NEGATIVE all the time. Now alternating the patterns, might be a solution, a temporary one at least.
After spending all this time in making trakers in excel, i came to this conclusion: we are folowing the DOTS not the LINES. Then we are following the LINES, not the 2D SURFACES. Then we dont see the 3d figures from the 2d SURFACES. Then we miss the time parameter.
This whole journey translates into one word: FAILURE.
We need to resurrect einstein and make him work for us.
Regards,
Alex
Quote from: therouletter on Oct 14, 01:10 PM 2013
I must admit I have always had my suspicions about online casinos... my suspicions grow in certain situations that occur too often. For example in street betting. I noticed when I first dabbled in online roulette (at one particular casino) that more line numbers appeared than I had noticed at B&M casinos.
To answer your question, therouletter, most of the online casinos MAY be rigged (RNG). I have a friend that is a software developer for roulette applications on mobile. He told me NEVER GAMBLE using phone applications as you will lose for sure.
RNG is not live roulette.
Cheers,
Alex
I will tell you, if I survive the next couple of sessions. I had 16 winning sessions in a row on Betvoyager, with a very small 10 or 20 units win goal. It was going very well, in average I needed 25 spins to win 10 units with EC bets. Then it started to be very tough to win. Now I feel like BV knows what my win goal is, because every time I one unit from my goal, I lose many spins in a row. It's been going on for 3 days. I've just finished a session, and I needed 224 spins to win 10 units.
The number repeating is an interesting thing. I'm also trying to find out if it's random or not on BV. Couple days ago I noticed, that every time I start a new game, one of the first 5 numbers will repeat within 10 spins. I started to test with playmoney and I was right. It did repeat about 20 out of 25 times. I got excited then started to take notes, after 64 tries I'd be up 108 units if I bet on the first 5 numbers, but I'm still not sure, because sometimes it doesn't happen a couple times is a row and that can cost a lot.
No online casinos don't cheat they only steal. When you would have "software" casino what would you do to improve earnings?
You need just one computer to have an online casino!
Don't be lazy go to land casinos, also they cheat, especially slot machines! Greed does not have boundary!
Hermes
Guy's lets face it. Don't lie to yourself and answer this question: When you take number's down and go home to check or you check manually, wow it's a winner.
We have always said roulette has it's own mind, having said that, I had a request from someone to write him an application to analyze his system. Having read it, I said the man was intelligent with his idea. I drop everything for 2 days and wrote him the tool. Which he claims doesn't work. Anyways to cut the story short, I played with it, I only needed a bankroll of 100units. To make a good amount, I wasn't home to stop it and it played for 8hrs straight and the final result was i lost I couldn't believe the amount of spins against this system after that long of play. I was shocked, but shouldn't have been. Moral of the story. As we say in poker as well, you will see more rare hands online than real life. e.g. 4 of a kind is common online considering the amount of hands played. Same as live dealer, if you play as many hands in a session you will see those hands. That's what's happening to us.
We all see spin's from hell once in a while and get discouraged by our winning system. Lower your Spins played, reduce the urge of becoming rich over night. I am sure yes you will lose, but you will win 7 out of 10 times. With the right Calculations the 7 wins, 3 losses should give you 4 wins net every 10 tries.
I have said this before and repeating again: Go to the ocean and get a pail of water out, you will be able to walk away from the beach. Try and take a a truck full of water, you ill get stuck on the beach and the next tide will drown you, Casino is a 24 hour ATM machine if used correctly.
QuoteI am sure yes you will lose, but you will win 7 out of 10 times. With the right Calculations the 7 wins, 3 losses should give you 4 wins net every 10 tries.
That's not the hard part to win 7 out of 10. The hardest part is to narrow the gap between the losings and winnings. Most people lose a lot more in a losing session then they win in a winning session.
If I lose, I always lose everything. I can rarely quit a losing session, it doesn't matter how big my roll is. That's why now I sit down with only 80 units, and try to quit before I lose everything, or I quit after 10-20 units win. It's been going well so far, 36 winning sessions out of 38 in the last 10 days since I started playing again for real money. But the 2 losing sessions combined gives me 136 units loss, and that's what I have to keep down.
I am convinced that they cheat.
Also so called live tables,its all a hoax.
I was playing simultanious with my friend in a well known online casino ,he was palying with play money and I was playing with real money .
he kept winning and I kept losing .
Most online casinos are scammers, I am sure.
all the best ..............
Live tables and RNG behave differently. It's much easier to cheat for RNG. Computer program can do ANYTHING.
Live roulette is usually a different story.
At this moment I think they cheat, because I lost my roll again. But losing my patient played a big part in it as usual.
So last time I made a 20 euro deposit on BV, quickly lost it, then I realized I still had 1.5 euro on my account, so I started playing with 5 cent units. I built my roll up to 26 euro in about 15 days, and from that moment the disaster started. No matter how safely I tried to play, I could barely able to book a winning session, and most of the days I finished in the red. Yesterday I covered 35 out of 36 numbers(probably bad idea but the risk is only 35 units), and that one number hit...on the very first spin of my session. Right after that I made the same bet, but with my entire roll, and that one uncovered number hit again. I know it was a bad idea, and it was my fault that I lost my roll in 2 spins, but I had a chance of 97.22% to win and I lost twice in a row. That brings up the question: was I cheated? It's like BV wanted me to make that big bet.
My next try will be on a live wheel, but the pace of live play kills me.
It's hard for some guys to get to B+M casinos what with the distances involved in large countries. So I can see it's tempting to play online and hope you get a fair go.
My advice would be to only play live dealers online. Maybe some of them cheat as well....but it's probably the best deal you are going to get!
I was thinking about how the airball machines could possibly cheat players over the last few days bearing in mind they are classified like slots as a few posters have mentioned on various sites.
I am sure it would be easy to arrange it so that the computer can work out all the locations with the heaviest betting action.
Then what is to stop the compressed air blowing upwards through those slots making it harder for the ball to land in them.
If this was possible.....it would allow the casino some kind of control over the profit and losses.
It's just conjecture on my part. Who knows?
Stick to live dealers :thumbsup:
Quote from: porkeporkeporke on Oct 20, 06:26 AM 2013
I am convinced that they cheat.
Also so called live tables,its all a hoax.
I was playing simultanious with my friend in a well known online casino ,he was palying with play money and I was playing with real money .
he kept winning and I kept losing .
Most online casinos are scammers, I am sure.
Porker,
Can you explain just how that all worked? You were both on the same table, one guy using play money and one guy using real money and only one guy won?
Well, of course it would work that way, assuming you were betting opposite of each other.
Now, if you were both making the same wagers, at the same table, just how did one guy win and one guy lose?
Anyway, a few more details would be nice here.
I've played multiple computers (and accounts) on the same live table and the results were always correct for whichever side the wagers were on and the RESULTS WERE IDENTICAL. That's called TESTING to make sure you're playing on a live table that really is live! It's also your own money so it would only make sense to TEST to make sure it's OK.
So, what were the details of this "rigged" table you and your friend were on?
AD
Quote from: ati on Nov 01, 05:05 AM 2013
My next try will be on a live wheel, but the pace of live play kills me.
ati,
Well, you can lose fast or win slow.
Take your pick.
Evidently the pace of the RNG game isn't helping you out at all!
AD
airball is NOT A SLOT MACHINE. it's mechanical. Slot machine is electronic. You still have the same roulette wheel in an airball machine.
there is videoroulette in some casinos, it's working like a slot machine, u don't have a roulette wheel there. but that's not an airball.
Quote from: iggiv on Nov 03, 01:13 PM 2013
there is videoroulette in some casinos, it's working like a slot machine, u don't have a roulette wheel there. but that's not an airball.
True. The winning odds on those are 32 - 1. Not 35 - 1.
Ig - Flawed assessment on airball ? Yes they may "appear" to operate like a live dealer spun wheel, that's what the casinos want you to think/believe.
"Airball is not a slot machine", physically true Ig but why are they classified Worldwide by all gaming authorities as EGMs ? (electronic gaming machines).
EGMs have many different categories rangeing from RNG slots/poker machines, video RNG roulette like Vegas Star, video blackjack, video horse & dog racing & some other dice & card games plus as already mentioned Airball/slingshot roulette.
Live dealer spun roulette is not regulated as EGM. They are treated as a true random result game. So they don't have to guarantee a set total % return to the player like EGMs do (independent audits check this). Live roulette/blackjack/baccarat/dice & horse/dog racing have one thing in common & that is how much you win or lose is not regulated except for any bet limits & odds/house advantage placed by the venue or bookie. Regulators are in place that check for fairness & cheating.
The manipulation of results on airball/slingshot has been extensively discussed before. The only site that I know that reveals the truth on the rigged results is UK wheel maker Cammergh. Go to that site & view their promo's of their auto wheels.
One part there describes that the ball track has hidden air jet holes (to "adjust" the ball speed). Then the wheel has fine speed controlled electric motors. They then go on to say what the outcome is with it non active & then active. The ball lands on 20 Black instead of 4 Black (x37 Euro wheel). 20B is near enough to being 180 deg. opposite to 4B. Another observation is that they apparently know where the ball will land no matter if the spin control is active or inactive.
If one wheel maker has it then all wheel makers will have it because the casinos/venues want/need controlled results/profits. They don't rely on true random results?
They'll all have different ways of manipulating the results due to patent design rights of individual wheel makers but no matter what wheel it is, once the speed of the ball is known via ball speed trackers they than know precisely what part of the circle the ball will fall. They then co-ordinate the wheel speed to Zone the number/area of the wheel they need. The airball/slingshot wheels I've seen have very little ball bounce/scatter. The most obvious being Interblock also known as Organic.
Whether at the race track, on slots/poker machines, on airball/slingshot, on any video RNG game or on live dealer roulette or cards etc. only a minority of players/punters win. The majority lose. The difference is the take/profit for the bookie/casino/venue.
Some players say they win often on airball/slingshot roulette & therefore what I say is BS. All that matters to me is that like RNG roulette I can't win on airball as often as I can on live dealer wheels.
Quote from: ausguy on Nov 03, 05:20 PM 2013
Ig - Flawed assessment on airball ? Yes they may "appear" to operate like a live dealer spun wheel, that's what the casinos want you to think/believe.
"Airball is not a slot machine", physically true Ig but why are they classified Worldwide by all gaming authorities as EGMs ? (electronic gaming machines).
EGMs have many different categories rangeing from RNG slots/poker machines, video RNG roulette like Vegas Star, video blackjack, video horse & dog racing & some other dice & card games plus as already mentioned Airball/slingshot roulette.
Live dealer spun roulette is not regulated as EGM. They are treated as a true random result game. So they don't have to guarantee a set total % return to the player like EGMs do (independent audits check this). Live roulette/blackjack/baccarat/dice & horse/dog racing have one thing in common & that is how much you win or lose is not regulated except for any bet limits & odds/house advantage placed by the venue or bookie. Regulators are in place that check for fairness & cheating.
The manipulation of results on airball/slingshot has been extensively discussed before. The only site that I know that reveals the truth on the rigged results is UK wheel maker Cammergh. Go to that site & view their promo's of their auto wheels.
One part there describes that the ball track has hidden air jet holes (to "adjust" the ball speed). Then the wheel has fine speed controlled electric motors. They then go on to say what the outcome is with it non active & then active. The ball lands on 20 Black instead of 4 Black (x37 Euro wheel). 20B is near enough to being 180 deg. opposite to 4B. Another observation is that they apparently know where the ball will land no matter if the spin control is active or inactive.
If one wheel maker has it then all wheel makers will have it because the casinos/venues want/need controlled results/profits. They don't rely on true random results?
They'll all have different ways of manipulating the results due to patent design rights of individual wheel makers but no matter what wheel it is, once the speed of the ball is known via ball speed trackers they than know precisely what part of the circle the ball will fall. They then co-ordinate the wheel speed to Zone the number/area of the wheel they need. The airball/slingshot wheels I've seen have very little ball bounce/scatter. The most obvious being Interblock also known as Organic.
Whether at the race track, on slots/poker machines, on airball/slingshot, on any video RNG game or on live dealer roulette or cards etc. only a minority of players/punters win. The majority lose. The difference is the take/profit for the bookie/casino/venue.
Some players say they win often on airball/slingshot roulette & therefore what I say is BS. All that matters to me is that like RNG roulette I can't win on airball as often as I can on live dealer wheels.
Ausguy, I totally understand where you coming from. However explain this with Airball, why is it some number's follow each other as patterns.
Example: I have seen this and have taken advantage of it at times. If you actually track numbers landed, 13 always follows 5 on that day. When 5 hit's bet the 13 neighbors and you will hit.
I have noticed that quite a bit. If it's not random and controlled are you telling me, I could make a fortune If i followed this, considering it's controlled. Why would they in their right mind always follow a number after the other?
Don't make sense at all. I am not talking of MYTHS like people say 13 will follow 31 or vice versa. 32-23 I am not talking of that. I mean actually tracking and following the last hit and bet the next number plus neighbor.
Can you explain that in Airball?
Azim - No I can't explain what the patterns are as obviously I don't have access to the game program nor the running profit/loss of the game ?
All I can make is an educated guess as to what "probably" goes on. Remember these machines are EGMs with % player returns the only regulated control, just like slots & we all should know how they eventually take all your money for most players. Yes they too have some winners but lots more losers.
1st & foremost the game is interactive to the amount of money bet at any one time. Sometimes it may need money & so avoids many players bets to rake in the money (the number activated manipulation mode). That doesn't mean that all players lose in fact it's beneficial for some to win so this encourages losing players to bet more thinking they too can soon be winners ?
2nd - I believe the game program will have neutral periods where the spins are true random ?
3rd - I believe the game program also has an RNG sub program that is sometimes used to vary the results (as seen on many RNG roulette patterns) ?
Now let's mix all this up with a few hours of play. You Azim walk in & sit down at your favourite airball machine & get ready to play, you look around & see only 1 other player playing & 6 vacant seats. A bit of light chat with that player reveals that a couple of players a short time before had between them lost $6,000.
The other player also tells you he is only betting minimum amounts and is slightly in profit.
(you may then ask yourself has this machine temporarily satisfied it's hunger for $$$$ ? You then say to yourself "I certainly hope so.")
Before you play you check the past displayed spins & you notice that the number pattern has changed about 1/2 way along which matches when the 2 losing players left the table.
I'm saying that the interactive program has turned off its manipulated bet mode & turned on its RNG manip. mode, thus the change in patterns. It can still make money in RNG mode & true random mode.
You Azim pick up on these patterns & start betting & fairly soon are in good profit. In that time 2 others have joined the game but still you notice the patterns continue. (for me the RNG mode is still active).
The 2 new players you observe are betting fairly large amounts & they say they are already $1 1/2grand in profit. Then you notice that the patterns are now not showing up like before. (my view - the program has switched back to manip. mode to ease the bleed off to the 2 newer players).
You start losing a little so you stop betting & play the wait & see game.
The 2 new guys wins start to reduce (bet avoidance does this) & their smiles & laughter starts to taper (losing money does that to many a player).
Then 2 more players join the table (so now all seats are filled). You soon learn that these are the guys that lost $6k a little while ago.
After only a few bets the $6k losers are now $2k winners (2nd sitting win $8k) so they cash out as winners.
A guy you meet later tells me (Azim) he knows the $6k losers/$2k profit winners. When the guy met them after their $6k loss he said they said that the airball
game is the biggest ripoff known to mankind. Later after their $2k profit recovery he saw them where they said all is forgiven & airball can be ok sometimes & they'll be back tomorrow to "whip airball real good."
Meanwhile the 2 new guys have had a real bad run & cut out with a $4k loss. They say these machines should be put through a crusher & casino bosses jailed & that they'll never play airball again.
You cash out with about $200 in profit as the patterns were too mixed for your play MO. You decide to grab a drink & meal & check the patterns later.
The original 1 low bet player cashes out only breaking even but says he'll be back another day soon when he feels his luck is in.
So in your play time at that airball game how has the casino done for profit or loss. The low stakes player is nuetral. Your win gives them - $200. The $6k losers/$8k winners makes it -$2,000 & -200 = -$2,200 & the 2 new guys @ +$4,000 so net casino profit = +$1,800.
Later you return to the same airball game & you find recent spins have favourable patterns for you. So you start betting again & soon are another $100 up. This suddenly changes as a few players start betting. They say they're already losing too much. You lose a little & cash out @ &75 profit. You leave the joint $275 ahead less $25 for drink & meal. So net $250.
In review of the game. Azim says ok with selective betting on patterns you can win. Small stakes player ok for a bit of a chance at some petty cash.
Large stake high risk bet players, to hell with the game when losing but A-OK when winning.
The other "shell shocked " $4k losers will never play that game again & that the rip-off is criminal.
Some other forum members have said they win a modest amount on air/auto wheels more often than lose playing hit & run game.
- and so ends my story of a manipulated game for the financial benefit of a casino or venue.
Ausguy, I guess. It's hard to believe, but I do get what you saying.
Azim - As you didn't elaborate I gather you will continue your pattern type play on airball ? If you continue to play time will tell if you can return an ever increasing profit or fall into the clutches of a rigged game & end up in the red ? My view is that it will eventually be the latter rather than the former?
"Remember these machines are EGMs"
How do you know this?
I play three casinos: BV, Smart Live Airball and Dublin live. I see the same stuff on all three. On SL I saw 33 0 33 0. Wouldn't that make you pucker if you were playing small numbers? I was.
But I have seen just as weird on Dublin.
Do you think they can puff the ball into a certain section? A number? Half the wheel? What? I'd really like to know.
Sam
Quote from: TwoCatSam on Nov 04, 08:38 AM 2013
"Remember these machines are EGMs"
How do you know this?
I play three casinos: BV, Smart Live Airball and Dublin live. I see the same stuff on all three. On SL I saw 33 0 33 0. Wouldn't that make you pucker if you were playing small numbers? I was.
But I have seen just as weird on Dublin.
Do you think they can puff the ball into a certain section? A number? Half the wheel? What? I'd really like to know.
Sam
Sam I have seen this even at the 2 casinos we have here. This is common. No one can change ones believe.
I once again think we are playing too many spins in a short period of time to see the fluctuation way to often.
They dont need to cheat to make a proffit...
TCS - As I've said many times before in other posts I've found the EGM info. "buried" on various GR (gaming regulators) sites. It appears that Worldwide EGMs are standardised ? Casinos don't have this info. on display, they want to keep the player as dumb as possible.
They have all sorts of different classes like 2a,2b,2c. 3a,3b,3c,3d. 4a,4b & so on. The class given depends on how the game operates. The games range from slot/poker machines, from basic 3 reels to high roller multi wheels through to video roulette, dice & card games. Then horse & dog racing & auto wheel roulette (slingshot or airball). It's all very technical & complex as more info. is added to their lists as new games/technology are developed.
I've spent hours on GR sites trying to fathom it all ( pdf pages run to 150 +). Also on google. I never really got the full picture but sufficient to post that airball games are EGMs.
2cat as you'd really like to know, are you familiar with the Cammergh name in roulette wheels ? Even if you aren't go to their site Cammergh.com & get into their product section & have a look at their 360 model auto airball wheel. It's there that they talk about descrete air jet holes in the ball track (adjusts ball speed).
Then they talk about fine speed control electric motors for the rotor wheel. It's then that they say that with the active control on it lands on 20 Black instead of 4 Black (opp.sides) if it was switched off. Logic then suggests that they know where the ball will land in either mode ? They also gave another example (I'm not 100% as haven't checked) something like (in active) 14 Red instead of 36 Red about 1/3 of the wheel apart.
They also have a short video demo. I haven't looked at it but Adulay did some time back & said it wasn't too revealing ?
The technology is there to have live dealer ball launch at the press of a button (nil hand spin) & even ball/wheel speed control on live dealer wheels, for the future, as players we're doomed.
airball is called "electronic roulette" for simple reason i guess. Because interaction with it is electronic. you press buttons for betting, no placing bets physically (mechanically). So in that sense they are electronic machines. But the wheel is still mechanical. I believe so.
Vladir - No they don't need to cheat to make SOME kind of profit ? What they want is constant guaranteed fixed % profits. The only way they can do this is to legally cheat, thus the EGMs. The only way they can ensure that the players get their proper % returns is also to control the results.
It all evolves from slots/poker machines that have been around for 75 - 80 years, give or take. Well before the computers we now have evolved.
Originally all the play was on the mechanical machines with lots of internal gears and the rotating reels, the classic fruit machine. The play was made via a pull handle & so also became known as the 1 arm bandit (stealing from the player). From way back the % returns were adjustable. Also the payouts were mostly dribbled back to the player.
Because of the mainly small payouts the player mostly feeds the small change back in hoping for a nice fat payout/jackpot. For the majority this never happens & so they finish their play with zero balance. However the most important point is that the payout total % back to the player has been met yet the machine has all the players money. Like winning in tennis it's Game, Set & Match.
Roll forward to more recent years & slots/pokies became computerized via RNG programs (google has bulk on this) but they still came with adjustable % returns.
Why ? Because the operator wants it like that.
In more recent years other video gambling games came along as well as auto roulette wheels. The common requirement by casinos/club/game venues was controlled % returns just like the slots/pokies have. To achieve that they need to manipulate the results. This they can do as they are EGMs not live dealer true random spun wheels.
Once the Airball game complies with set players % returns the game is then able to LEGALLY clean you out. Note it's the combined amounts not individual amounts that matter because that's all that is audited & over a longer time period for more accurate stats. I know this because it is stated on all Gaming Regulators sites that I have seen.
What this means for the individual player is that you could win good at some stage but other players at the table get worked over real good & so are busted pretty quick. Other days you just can't crack a profit but other players are winning.
The sad thing is that the manipulation is going on by stealth with most players believing they are playing a fair game. It's the same on video RNG where some players are actually tracking the spin trends on roulette results by marking up a game card like they do ln live dealer, usually it does them no good as they usually go bust eventually.
The worrying trend for me here at my local casino in Sydney OZZ is less live dealer & more RNG games. Pokies/slots figure large, 1,000 + machines. RNG roulette has increased but live dealer wheels have shrunk by at least 60%. They've also increased the live play inside minimum from $5 to $10 with only 1 $5 game but a dbl zero added between 5R & 10B. Low budget players have now been pushed onto RNG, what a rort.
Airball/slingshot doesn't figure much at all, some regular casino players have told me if you want to lose keeep playing the auto wheel. That's why they stopped playing the darn thing.
Also on any airball wheel have a close look for any ball speed readers, LEDs or over track sensors. Many also have deep ball catching pockets & minimal ball bounce. All part of the design to hit the programmed number.
Ig - as I've already said to 2Cat, get onto the Cammergh wheel makers site & have a look at the wheels they make. In particular have a look at their 360 airball wheel.
Then come back on here & tell me what you think ? Yes the wheels are mechanical everyone can see that but what some can't see/don't want to see is the manipulation that lurks within the machine. A lot of people in the past believed that the World was flat.
Every type of auto wheel needs to have controlled results not just Cammergh because that's what casinos/venues want
Also read my 1st 3 sentences in my last post to Vladir.
Ausbuddy,
i got there, and see what i get?
link:://:.cammegh.com/product.php?product=slingshot2&tabs=1-0-0-0
The patented and GLI 11 approved Cammegh Slingshot 2 is the most authentic, accurate and reliable automatic roulette wheel available anywhere in the world. The elegant and simplistic design of the Slingshot 2 combines random rotor and ball speed at launch with Cammegh’s unique ARC (Active Rotor Control) system which after ‘no more bets’, imperceptibly changes the rotor to a new random speed.
The ball is launched by being blown out of the pocket by a puff of air, it is then met by a random blast of air from discrete air jets mounted in the ball track.
The ‘no more bets’ signal and winning number are recognised securely by three discreet In-Rim laser sensors. During the game cycle the ball remains in view at all times, reassuring players and upholding the integrity of the wheel.
Ausguy, buddy, if
any casino wheel maker or casino will let a slightest suspicion of some monkey business with their stuff to come out to open -- they risk to lose hundreds if not thousands of players. Those are the days of flashmobs, internet news and online reactions on them turn into real life bloody revolutions and civil wars! And this happens in the countries which are not the greatest in the sense of web communication development everywhere. But look what may happen if some casinos or their suppliers get it out in the open: "we can manipulate our wheels".
the reply can be in days and hundreds of players everywhere will spread the news to each other...
Ig - Casinos worldwide would have , at a guess ?, 100 million people playing in any one week ? This forum has 1,058 listed members. Even adding in all roulette forum/gaming members everywhere compared to casino players it's like a handful of sand to all the sand on a beach.
What forum members say or reveal would never reach 99.9999% of casino players either B & M or on line. Casinos know this & so don't need to care what we reveal or say as it has no impact on their profits.
Cammergh certainly doesn't care to keep info. confidential.
Put the "Monkey Business" info. on you tube, facebook, twitter won't have any effect at all because Ig. most people couldn't give a *hit because they don't gamble & those that do most don't play airball. Also many don't even speak/read English.
Justin Bieber getting hit in the head with a drink bottle the other day would swamp any info. anyone puts out on cheating airball. I just read today he has 46 million plus facebook followers.
Airball is not a big item in any casino anyway. They could remove the machines off the floor & their profits wouldn't change at all, players would just spend it on some other game ?
Unless someone can prove to me/anyone that airball/auto wheels don't cheat then it's as Cammergh says where they "combine random rotor and ball speed at launch ......... after no more bets the rotor control imperceptibly (humanly unable to detect) changes the rotor to a new random speed....... The ball is launched.....it is met by a random blast of air from discrete (hidden/not revealed) air jets mounted in the ball track."
Auto wheels don't worry me as I don't play them, I wised up to the cheating ripoffs ages ago.
Quote from: ausguy on Nov 05, 03:31 AM 2013
Unless someone can prove to me/anyone that airball/auto wheels don't cheat then it's as Cammergh says where they "combine random rotor and ball speed at launch ......... after no more bets the rotor control imperceptibly (humanly unable to detect) changes the rotor to a new random speed....... The ball is launched.....it is met by a random blast of air from discrete (hidden/not revealed) air jets mounted in the ball track."
What you are saying, now is, It's your belief that they cheat. No one can change any ones belief. It's in you and up to you to believe or not.
I personally have said it. I don't believe it's fixed. I gave you a my explanation. If a number falls, why does the next number be closer or a repeat of sequences of number's.
Auto wheels don't worry me as I don't play them, I wised up to the cheating ripoffs ages ago.
This Spring i was playing at the Atlantis casino in the Bahamas, and at one point, the pitboss decided to change the ball for a bigger ball. He asked if i didn't mind. I didn't. Then i was thinking.......why would they have different roulette ball sizes? Does anyone know the reason?
It is a FACT that many RNG casinos cheat. By that I mean they will predetermine results based on what payouts have already been given. I haven't yet seen any evidence that casinos that offer live webcam roulette cheat. The exception is payout refusals for pathetic or no excuses, which is as good as cheating.
Quote from: Carsch on Nov 05, 01:19 PM 2013
This Spring i was playing at the Atlantis casino in the Bahamas, and at one point, the pitboss decided to change the ball for a bigger ball. He asked if i didn't mind. I didn't. Then i was thinking.......why would they have different roulette ball sizes? Does anyone know the reason?
Among other things it changes the timing, the ball decay, and the scatter, and helps dissolve any bias that might be present in the current situation.
Perhaps they suspected you or someone else at the table was using visual ballistics, etc, or perhaps it was just something the casino does periodically by default.
OK Azim as you're a fan of the airball/autowheel game let's see how you go with it from now until the end of the year. Just give a regular update of the basics of your play such as BR, number of bet spins +/- profit or loss & running net total, number of sessions per week or similar.
If your MO is correct you will be in viable profit & if I'm correct you will be in the RED & underwater.
The automated wheels dont "cheat", meaning they dont determine the winning number based on your bets (to avoid them). But almost all do have in-built countermeasures. For example, the cammegh slingshot randomizes rotor speed changes after no more bets is called.
Does this make winning more difficult? That depends on the method you use to win. It doesnt affect methods where you bet before ball release, like bias. But it does affect roulette computers and visual ballistics, which is the designer's intention. To what extent does it affect accuracy? That depends on the wheel settings. It mostly reduces the edge, but rarely completely evaporates it.
Generally speaking, you can still beat slingshots, but it comes down to the individual wheel, it's subtle differences, and the settings. But as a general rule, professional players avoid them because there are much easier wheels around. If you ask people in the know, the wheels act more as a deterrent to professional players rather than a complete solution. For now, the only solid solution for casinos is detection of consistent winners, and taking whatever action is required for each case.
Carsch - Just to add to what Skakus has said I think the small ball is made of different material to the larger ball.
From memory I think the smaller ball bounces (scatter) a lot more than tha larger ball ? There has been some talk about teflon & ivorine balls & I'm sure Steve knows lots about that ?
Behind the scences (the good old backroom) all the spins that come up on the marquee sign board are recorded in their computers. Wheel Cammergh mentions about this in their PR & the analysis software they have. All wheel makers would have computer tracking.
At a glance the software might show a bias trend so a backroom call to the pit supervisor alerts him to the fact & so the ball change.
Now that you're aware of the different balls maybe you'll be able to then see if the bounce etc. is more or less ?
There are teflon, ivorine and nylon balls. Nylon balls are very light, and not used much. Teflon (usually white) is most common. Ivorine is hardest to beat as it has most bounce.
How different sizes affect scatter depend on diamonds and wheel pockets. Generally larger balls give more predictable scatter because they are more likely to have a "roll forward" effect.
Shallower pockets with large teflon balls are most common. The roll forward is about 10 pockets. It appears to move further, but the distance it rolls is more consistent.
Deeper pockets can be either good or bad. Like on the alfastreet wheel in my video at link:://:.roulettecomputers.com/video-demos/ the pocket hold the ball and don't let it bounce much. But on the mk7 huxley wheels with standard pockets, part of the pocket is deeper than the other, so scatter is much less predictable. then if you consider shallow cammegh pockets, you get the roll forward effect which is quite predictable.
If bias occurs with one ball, it will occur with another. Easiest solution is interchange rotors between wheels and recalibrate. This will resolve many causes of bias that occur only with specific rotor and wheel base combinations. Recalibration (levelling) helps with bias that occurs only with dominant diamonds, like where the rotor decelerates more at a specific orientation.
Two major problems with bias analysis are it takes too long, and the casino monitors for them anyway. You can still notice bias before the casino does if you use visual confirmation like what is explained at link:://:.genuinewinner.com/roulette-wheel-bias/ but still there are much better ways to beat roulette
Steve - I think that going off info. on some of Cammerghs wheels that they can land any number at will ?
I just revisted Cammerghs site to refresh my memory and yes the still have the same PR for their wheels. On here I'm refering to the 37 number Euro wheel.
In particular their Mercury 360 RRS (random rotor speed) model. It also has "discrete" (hidden) air control jets in the ball track.
In a deacceleration test (slow it down) they say they hit 20B instead of 4B. These 2 numbers are almost opposite each other.
In the acceleration test (speed it up) they hit 9R instead of 36R some 14 pockets apart.
The pockets they say "instead" 4B & 36R with the spins in random non active RRS mode to me infers that they know through precise wheel & ball speeds which pocket the ball will hit regardless of what mode they have operating ? However with RRS active they can hit their target number.
Being under a dome in a controlled enviroment also helps
Also through my digging into gaming regulator sites I see that auto wheels are classed as EGMs & not true random spun roulette wheels.
The payouts & % returns are more related to slot/pokie functions than live dealer wheels.
In autowheel play if the game program deems that more income is due the play function will be altered to hit non bet on or low bet $$ numbers, therefore raking
in larger bets.
For the casino they now have another the "Holy Grail."
On another slant re: Interblock Organic auto wheel. If they also don't cheat why do they have 18 oversize ball to pocket guides masquerading as deflector diamonds ? Normal live dealer wheels have only about 6 much smaller deflector diamonds.
I've never known any cammegh wheel to be capable of selecting the winning number.
Yes they show the difference in winning number that is capable, but this is not actual selection of a number - it is randomized. If their wheels were capable of selecting an outcome, then this result would not be "random", and it would be illegal in almost every casino in the world. My solicitor did research in many jurisdictions and so did solicitors from other computer players, and it is illegal to influence spin results in a way where a number is targeted, whether the player or casino equipment does it.
You could also have massive diamonds where the ball falls predictably (no scatter), but the outcome could still be randomized by something like:
1. ball being propelled random number of revolutions before it begins to roll naturally
2. randomized rotor deceleration changes
Unless we had access to the operational software/casino settings/management info. we can never know ?
As EGMs autowheels only have to comply with payout compliance (statisical independent audits) as legislated in the gaming law & administered by the relevant gaming authority. I don't think your solicitors advice is correct for autowheels ?
The FINAL time I played an autowheel was some 2+ years ago at The Star in Sydney (OZZ). I played on the Interblock organic wheel, the one with those 18 large
pocket guides.
I played 33 numbers so only 4 numbers uncovered. Zero, 4B, 5R & 6B (a vacant street). Spin 1 lost 5R hit, rebet same - 6B hit lost, rebet same - 6B hit (dbl) lost, changed bets on 2 numbers. So uncovered were then zero, 4B, 36R & 25R lost again when 4B hit, next bet same 25R hits & loss, rebet same & win when 17B hit (right next door to an uncovered 25R) rebet same again & 25R hits & again a loss (a 17B winner was right next door as a matter of interest).
So out of 33 bet numbers I got 5 straight losses out of 6 & only 1 winner. @ $1 bets that was $198 in losses & only $3 in wins so the net loss was $195. For me the results were manipulated & the wheel was only 1 pocket away from a 7 nil clean sweeep, the pocket guides frame 2 numbers & I saw it almost drop into 25R then drop into 17B my only win.
I also think that the autowheels are interactive. That is they switch their manipulation on & off = sometimes random. Thus you have the situation where in the opinion of a winning player I don't know what I'm talking about whereas a losing player will say "I know where you're coming from."
Knowing the wheel settings would of course be helpful, but they alone wouldn't be enough. You dont really need to know the "cause" of something, you more need to know the "effect". It is easy to assess what countermeasures an auto wheel has, or rather know what is predictable or not. I have software that does this. It does a few things but one example is you can clock 10 or so entire spins to know the timings of each ball revolution, right to the end of the spin. Then the software tells you how consistent the ball's deceleration rate is between different spins, and at what ball speeds does the ball roll consistently enough. My players know it as the Atilt timer and deviation tester. It makes assessing wheels and countermeasures much easier which is important because you need to focus on the best wheels, and need to be able to find the best ones quickly.
Quote from: Skakus on Nov 05, 04:55 PM 2013
Among other things it changes the timing, the ball decay, and the scatter, and helps dissolve any bias that might be present in the current situation.
Perhaps they suspected you or someone else at the table was using visual ballistics, etc, or perhaps it was just something the casino does periodically by default.
Makes sense.
Steve - Knowing what the autowheel has done in a previous just past set of spins would most likely not allow a successful prediction for the current spin unless the earnings program "permitted" the wheel to give you a winner ?
As the bets usually close before the ball launches, last second bets are not possible.
Do your players play autowheel much ? If they don't is it because they lose more than they win ?
If the bets close before the wheel spins, then it limits your options (ie no roulette computers).
You can analyse the "deviation" from the normal behaviour, which tells you how predictable elements of the spin will be. This can tell you what approaches to predicting the spins have a chance of working.
Many of my players play on auto wheels. They are treated the same way as normal wheels, but require more thorough assessment to see what countermeasures are applied, and to what degree. Generally players are much more like to skip an auto wheel than a normal wheel because of countermeasures. You get good and bad wheels all the time, auto or normal wheels. But not all players have a wide selection of wheels. If you only have 2 or so wheels, it isnt much but sometimes viable with extra work, although most people arent prepared for that. If you have 5-6 this is usually enough, even if the wheels are of the same design because they all have unique properties you dont physically see.
Quote from: ausguy on Nov 05, 05:09 PM 2013
OK Azim as you're a fan of the airball/autowheel game let's see how you go with it from now until the end of the year. Just give a regular update of the basics of your play such as BR, number of bet spins +/- profit or loss & running net total, number of sessions per week or similar.
If your MO is correct you will be in viable profit & if I'm correct you will be in the RED & underwater.
Ausguy,
I don't have to wait till the end of the year.
Have a look at this link, I have all my deposits and withdrawals. I love challenges. This one I am attaching, is just for you. I am not going to show you my withdrawals.
I am quite sure everyone will agree why would I deposit, If I had money in the account.by the way NOTICE NO DEPOSIT IS OVER OR CLOSE To a 100. THE DEPOSIT OF 100 everyone sees was deposited by a friend. Even when you look at the link. Even there I did mention I have friends who play with my account, when they come over and visit.
I have said this before and I am saying it again. I wasn't out to scam anyone at that time.
link:://:.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=12401.0
I put my money where ever my mouth goes.
BTW this was all bot playing.