Ok guys,
In case you don't know, there are ways for US players to bet online, but they do involve people with non-US accounts.
The scheme goes basically like this:
- A trusted non-us player opens an account with his/her personal data, and makes a deposit.
- The US-based player gives money and gets the username and password for the account from the non-us person.
The easier part comes now, as the US-player does *NOT* even have install to the casino software to disclose his/her USA-based IP, but the gaming is achieved by:
- Remote controlling software (link:://:.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Remote+desktop+software&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) of the non-US player's PC. (i.e. teamviewer.com (link:://teamviewer.com))
- The renting of a private server located in the same country of residence as the non-us player. i.e. a Canada-based player can hire one of the many flavors of windows' servers (Virtual dedicated server -VDS-, Virtual private server -VPS- or a plain ol' physical server -makes no difference-). The player(s) can connect to this windows machine, install the casino software there and remotely control it for deposit/betting/withdraw actions. For the casino(s), all of the information (IP, cookies, registry files, etc.) is coming from that machine and not from any of the connected 3rd party.
Finding such a server targetting a country is easy, just searching for something like:
rent windows server +<country>
i.e.
rent windows server +Canada
link:://:.google.com/search?q=rent+windows+server+%2Bcanada (link:://:.google.com/search?q=rent+windows+server+%2Bcanada)
By this means, the US-based player never even installs casino software at all, his IP never shows on any casino record as he's simply another incoming connection to the server/machine and his computer's communication "socket" never touches any casino, bank, etc.
Now comes my questions:
- This is a private player-to-player affair, does the US-government even care?
- As there is no communication between the US player and the casino and no financial connection between the US player and the casino (not even an install for casino software). How can the US government counteract this? Is there any legislation that voids remote controlling software used to connect to another country's PC and control the mouse to bet?
I've been betting online lately by controlling a PC with another person's account. (Not because Venezuela is banned to bet online, but because I got no access to dollars from Venezuelan banks :-\), so I know by fact this works.
When I'm controlling another person's PC, the casino can't know about me at all.
As a matter of fact, the player himself has logged into the casino, typing the login info and I can only control the mouse to bet.
Of course, this can't get any of us into any trouble, as a connection from Venezuela is meaningless to prosecute; but... does the US government even devote to prosecute such schemes? Are there any documented stories about people jailed for controlling a remote computer's mouse and betting? ???
As a side note:
If this activity becomes immensely popular, maybe the laws can change?
Maybe the us-based government can be forced to unban online gambling for US players, as they are doing it anyways?
Start the debate! :)
Victor
What you're saying is totally possible.
Here's the kicker. What % does the Canadian/European/Australian/Whatever get for his trouble? Does he pay taxes on the winnings? Should the American take all the risk? Should the account holder fund a portion of the bankroll? Let's face it: It costs nothing to set up an account.
If someone from Canada set up an account for me at Dublin and I put in 1,000 pounds, how do I know they would not just withdraw the money and thumb their nose at me? I've heard of this very thing happening.
I know of no instances where anyone has ever been prosecuted for gambling via internet. I don't think the law addresses what you speak about. It is just to keep institutions from funding the accounts.
We are still waiting for HR 2267 to be voted on in the congress.
Sam
Hello Sam,
Being an US resident yourself, your input is much appreciated.
Well yes, I'm from Venezuela and if I can use publicly available free software to control a PC in another country without leaving track, you can do the same from the States: it is the same internet.
The main point for the scheme to work is TRUST: Can you find someone you trust enough? Your relatives outside the states (if any)? Trustees from the forum?
People should be able to do as they wish with their earned money. Frankly speaking I see a nonsense in the US gambling ban when what your government should be doing is looking for ways to offer your citizens legal online gambling.
Many people would prefer to play in a legally US-regulated casino rather than betting using one located on any of the fiscal havens online casino owners like so much to establish at.
It may prove a great source of revenue to take money from all of those non-us people who trust the US more than the other places backing the online casinos.
If the fear is to have gambling money leaking inter-state, then make each casino from each state to take wagers only from their own citizens when dealing with US residents.
Each state can have their own pages to complement their land-casinos and ID verification ensures that each resident can play online only at the site from his/her land-based casino location.
Problem solved.
Gambling taxes from US residents go each to the state of residence only, and it is the people from each state who chooses if they want to move their arses to the nearest land-casino or play
there virtually from home, without tax evasion.
There can be room for competition among the US-regulated casinos for attracting the international traffic (i.e. bonuses, offering more or improved versions of the games, comps or points, etc.).
If this scheme could be advertised instead of the ban. It would be a win/win for residents as well as the government.
OK. Back to what reality offers at the moment.
...I want to bring this to consideration: "restraining people from doing something is simply having them finding more elaborated ways to do it".
Quote from: TwoCatSam on May 25, 12:52 PM 2010
What % does the Canadian/European/Australian/Whatever get for his trouble? Does he pay taxes on the winnings?
The payment I guess is a monthly *rent* of the account, and the person should be kind enough not to touch the bankroll at all. It would be his business, a complementary monthly income. This motivates the person to offer a good "service" for the person to keep making their monthly payment to him/her, regardless of the wins/losses incurred.
Of course, under agreement it can be percentage wise but that would be for big winners, and we know the average bettor simply isn't (specially if he/she is going to bet slots and the other casino games with huge edges).
Quote from: TwoCatSam on May 25, 12:52 PM 2010
I know of no instances where anyone has ever been prosecuted for gambling via internet.
Would be quite an interesting to see the arguments:
--
"You committed the crime of betting with your hard-earned money at home when we want you to move your arse to the land-casino. 30 years jail and no parole :D"...Perhaps you US people need one case to set precedent? Is it mandatory that you must spend your hard-earned money leaving home? Can't you just bet online and declare taxes ;)?
And of course, the award-winning question. If you can spend your money online for buying products and services from the comfort of your home: can placing bets be considered another "service" as valid as buying an MP3 download online?
This is quite an interesting topic to debate, isn't it!?
Victor
There is a movement to un-ban or remove the ban. It may someday see the light of day and it may not. We are a hypocritical nation. Senators who rage against homosexuals have a dally themselves now and then with a "boy-toy". And they get caught!
It is said that internet gambling could generate a billion a year in taxes. BUT..the Indians and the big gambling interests in Vegas and Tunica and so on DO NOT want internet gambling. And they may keep it banned for years.
My first thought is for me to move to Canada for a time and set up a residence and become a dual citizen. It happens.
Sam
Why move to Canada? You have the technological means for remote-controlled betting. And I think you already know a non-us fellow who won't hesitate shall you ask him to open and fund an account for you to play (PM me if you want to know who I have in mind).
Cheers!
Hi All
This law has anoid me ever since it passed. But Twocats I do not see it going away, Where it origanaly came from people who want to make sure we all do nothing that they would consider a sin. Many states are or have started land based casinos as a way of balancing thier budgets. They now are the ones that have a hand in not removing this law. Even though the first state to say it legializes internet gambling, will probably never have a budget problem ever again.
Quote from: Phishalot on May 29, 08:28 AM 2010
Even though the first state to say it legalizes internet gambling, will probably never have a budget problem ever again.
Maybe not as much as "ever again", but for sure taking legal bets worldwide can bring a lot.
Hi Victor,
I took a look at the teamviewer.com...WoW! They want over $700.00 for it however, on ZDnet.com they have free software that will do the same thing.
Teamviewer is free for personal use.
I've been using it with people from the forum and no one has paid anything.
It is very unlikely you'll need any more features than what is offered for free :)
Hi Victor,
Ok, I'll take another look. I have request though. If I can't figure out how to install it on the other computer or I can't figure out how to use it, will you assist me? At times I am a little computer illiterate...hahahaha!
Sure I can!
Teamviewer isn't the only remote controlling software, there are more and arguably easier to get on running.
Try this: link:://showmypc.com/ (link:://showmypc.com/)
[attachimg=#]
It is pretty straigh-forward; no registration and no install process.
Simply download and run a copy on both sides.
One person hits the "Show my PC now" button and generates the code:
[attachimg=#]
And the other person hits "View remote PC" and pastes the code:
[attachimg=#]
Pretty easy!
you R NOT :o
[attachimg=#]
Iggiv, today Scooby and I connected at both teamviewer and showmypc...
The man simply couldn't lay the bets as his connection was too troublesome (dialup)
So we learned something: NetZero dialup connection SUCKS big time!
(No wonder the name, you get zero access to all the tasty features of the net; heck, Scooby can't even get into our chat! :-\)
It is probably true that we will never get on line, as such. But Victor is right. A buddy in Elbonia can always set us up an account.
Sam
Dear Victor,
People from Venezuela and US are not sole victim of these laws and policies. I am from India, the 2nd biggest nation in the world in population and 5th largest economy of the world. There is no clear law on online gambling here but many big casino operators like Realtime Gaming and few others have banned us from playing online. Like US, we have a federal structure and two of the States of India have land based casino and one of them is developing online casino with the help of betfair. In India all forms of gambling and betting is considered illegal, but we can play in land based casinos. Further, international credit card transactions have been banned by Government of India. It has become very much problematic to deposit and withdraw from casinos. I am telling you, I am a very successful player of both forms of roulette RNG and Live but due to these problems I do not play with big sums. I can deposit in Neteller with local bank deposits but can't withdraw that way. Isn't is ridiculous?
TwoCat is in here.
Was wondering where he got to.
That cat has more than nine lives.
I love topics like this. I STRONGLY feel that US residents should have the right to gamble online. Afterall, they allow horse races, dog races, and lottery, why not casinos? If is was an ethical problem then they would not allow ANY type of online gambling. So, I believe the problem is "greed" over "ethics". Special interests are blocking competition by not allowing online gambling. Greed, just simple greed.
Now, I've read the posts, and I think that some of the suggestions may work. From a legal standpoint I can not recommend it from an operator's perspective. Celtic Casino sincerely does not allow US players, not even secretly at this time. This thread is not about us, so I'll stick to the topic of US players.
Let's say you have the IP redirect down and the deposits. How will you claim your winnings? There's a lot of player verification protocols established to make sure the person who signed up is the actual player. This protects the player and cardholder.
I think each US resident should make up their own mind (I'm not morally against it of course), but if you can't be sure to get your winnings then the fun is kind of gone isn't it?
I so like the way you guys think though. You are very resourceful.
Quote from: CelticCasino on Aug 04, 07:05 PM 2010
I STRONGLY feel that US residents should have the right to gamble online. Afterall, they allow horse races, dog races, and lottery, why not casinos? If is was an ethical problem then they would not allow ANY type of online gambling. So, I believe the problem is "greed" over "ethics". Special interests are blocking competition by not allowing online gambling. Greed, just simple greed.
Very well said, the reason is obvious: if people stay at home betting online, they are not going out to the racetracks and local casinos. Loss of business to them, nothing to do with morals.
Quote from: CelticCasino on Aug 04, 07:05 PM 2010Now, I've read the posts, and I think that some of the suggestions may work.
They do work! Some even have remotely-operated clickers to overcome the lag on slow connections derived from broadcasting the casino's ever-refreshing game screen live.
A simple data package with an ASCII string containing: "7,12,19,28,32,36", travels very fast. It reaches the receiving socket
in a snap for the local clicker program to hit those numbers before the betting time runs out.
Quote from: CelticCasino on Aug 04, 07:05 PM 2010Let's say you have the IP redirect down and the deposits. How will you claim your winnings?
The operator doesn't have to know about the identity of the US-based player at all.
This is a
player-to-player affair.
Say I register from Venezuela, you get my IP playing there, I win, collect my gains and
then wire the winnings to TwoCatSam in Oklahoma (minus my cut). How is the operator ever going to know about it?
No USA IP, No USA data at all. As far as the operator concerns they are dealing (and paying to) a non-USA person.
What the receiving end can make with the money after arrival is up to him/her. That's the beauty of the scheme.
Nobody gets hurt. The online casino gets the player's business and the USA-player wagers online with the largest risk being the offshore person's sincerity at the time of paying.
Call it a "greed-shift" from the local gambling location to the offshore player!
...Do believe in a country full of immigrant families, there are loads and loads of USA people with relatives outside the borders :)
Quote from: CelticCasino on Aug 04, 07:05 PM 2010I so like I think each US resident should make up their own mind (I'm not morally against it of course), but if you can't be sure to get your winnings then the fun is kind of gone isn't it?
Family and close friends aren't that deceptive. If there is enough confidence to hand-out money to a person outside the country, there more surely is some bonding already. It is a regular practice for the offshore "proxy person" to get a cut, so it is in his/her best interest to have the scheme working month after month smoothly.
...Of course, you never know what happens in the event of hitting a Progressive Jackpot! ;)
Quote from: CelticCasino on Aug 04, 07:05 PM 2010I so like the way you guys think though. You are very resourceful.
AH! I'm glad you are enjoying the debate. More casinos should get to check out the places where their players hang-out. Makes sense (even business-wise) to know the trends of thinking among players.
Thanks for being around Steven. We appreciate the input "from both sides of the table"...
Regards.
Victor
Some interesting points you made there Steven.
Sure hope to see more from you.
Any news on the table limits?
Quote from: VLS on Aug 04, 07:33 PM 2010
Nobody gets hurt. The online casino gets the player's business[...]
And I have to add
it is also safe for the operator, since no USA-based IP
ever touches their servers, hence no incriminating logs of USA operations at all.
Even if it is discovered, what is the operator going be blamed for? Taking wagers from a non-us IP? Taking and paying money to a non-US resident? (the "proxy player")
As far as the law regards, this is
entirely a player-to-player affair.
Quote from: VLS on Aug 04, 07:33 PM 2010
Nobody gets hurt.
Well, perhaps the moral-less local greedy operators ;)
Quote from: VLS on Aug 04, 08:06 PM 2010
And I have to add it is also safe for the operator
Thinking a bit, one must even argue this scenario is not only "just safe" (as in a very probability of breaking the law) but actually it may prove to be
100% legal for the operator, since -if I got the situation on the USA gambling ban right-, what is illegal in the USA is:
[box]SUBCHAPTER IV - PROHIBITION ON FUNDING OF UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING
5363. Prohibition on acceptance of any financial instrument for unlawful Internet gambling[/box]
So it deals with the transfer of "gambling funds" to financial institutions in the US.
Hence this remote wagering scheme could be a very valid "loophole" in the law, and the USA lawmakers already made it clear they aren't pursuing the players, but the institutions with the 2006 ban.
The casino operator in this case doesn't has any accountable "gambling fund transfer" within US soil, nor any IP-based communications with the USA player.
Quote from: VLS on Aug 04, 07:33 PM 2010
the USA-player wagers online with the largest risk being the offshore person's sincerity at the time of paying.
Regarding the risk of the Federal Wire Act, I must quote:
[box]. . . It does not go after the causal gambler who bets $2 on a race. That type of transaction is not within the purvue of the statute."[61] In Baborian, the federal district court concluded that Congress did not intend to include social bettors within the umbrella of the statute, even those bettors that bet large sums of money and show a certain degree of sophistication.[62][/box]
(Source (link:://:.gambling-law-us.com/Federal-Laws/wire-act.htm))
As you can see neither the internet gambling funding ban by the UIGEA of 2006 nor the Federal Wire Act target the player speficially, so chances are the USA person isn't going to be punished either.
Quote from: VLS on Aug 04, 07:33 PM 2010
Say I register from Venezuela, you get my IP playing there, I win, collect my gains and then wire the winnings to TwoCatSam in Oklahoma (minus my cut). How is the operator ever going to know about it?
They never would. That would be impossible to track.
Quote from: VLS on Aug 04, 07:33 PM 2010No USA IP, No USA data at all. As far as the operator concerns they are dealing (and paying to) a non-USA person.
This scenario would be undetectible (as far as i know) and no different from a foreign national from playing in a regulated country.
Quote from: VLS on Aug 04, 07:33 PM 2010Thanks for being around Steven. We appreciate the input "from both sides of the table"...
Thanks Victor, I appreciate it. I think that my role is one of contributing to the community by offering support and information, without soliciting.
Cheers guys!