Hey guys my friend Ellis has started a new Baccarat only forum take a look if you feel so inclined to do so, I hope Steve does not mind me mentioning it here??????
Ellis is one of the top 10 Baccarat players in the US.
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
Stuart Brandt
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 13, 10:39 AM 2018
Hey guys my friend Ellis has started a new Baccarat only forum take a look if you feel so inclined to do so, I hope Steve does not mind me mentioning it here??????
Ellis is one of the top 10 Baccarat players in the US.
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
Stuart Brandt
Stuart,
Thanks for informing us about this new baccarat site.
I tidied this up. Sorry this baccarat post was trolled.
I would have done this earlier if I could.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 13, 10:39 AM 2018
Hey guys my friend Ellis has started a new Baccarat only forum take a look if you feel so inclined to do so, I hope Steve does not mind me mentioning it here??????
Ellis is one of the top 10 Baccarat players in the US.
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
Stuart Brandt
Stuart,
Is this new web site going to act as the de facto official site for Ellis?
Or is there another one for that purpose?
Quote from: Turner on Apr 13, 04:23 PM 2018
I tidied this up. Sorry this baccarat post was trolled.
I would have done this earlier if I could.
Thanks Mr Turner
Quote from: DoctorSudoku on Apr 13, 05:15 PM 2018
Stuart,
Is this new web site going to act as the de facto official site for Ellis?
Or is there another one for that purpose?
Yes, it is his official forum/website.
Stuart
Mr Tuner
Thank you, you are right
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 14, 08:17 AM 2018
Yes, it is his official forum/website.
Stuart
Okay -- will visit it frequently.
Ellis, as you probably know, is a controversial figure in baccarat circles, but he definitely brings a different perspective to an analysis of the game in terms of the patterns / trends characteristic of the game and how to exploit them.
Yes, that is true however with almost 40 years in the game of Baccarat he knows a lot and wins all the time.
I had him on the phone while I was playing on Betphoenix and he coached me to a massive amount of wins on the phone while I played for real money.
He had his scorecard filled out from the results I told him and it was unreal how correct he was on what was happening with the online table he knew exactly what I should do and advised me to play what was the best option for the shoe I was playing.
Well check out the forum and see what happens, guys.
Ellis has a welcome link on the forum that says New guys and girls - START HERE.
A hot topic we have been discussing is factory new pre-shuffled cards that the nearest BM casino will have on the shoes at the tables here in the US.
Also the subject of SHUFFLEMASTER AND SHUFFLEKING shoes too.
Stuart
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 14, 08:14 PM 2018
Yes, that is true however with almost 40 years in the game of Baccarat he knows a lot and wins all the time.
I had him on the phone while I was playing on Betphoenix and he coached me to a massive amount of wins on the phone while I played for real money.
He had his scorecard filled out from the results I told him and it was unreal how correct he was on what was happening with the online table he knew exactly what I should do and advised me to play what was the best option for the shoe I was playing.
Well check out the forum and see what happens, guys.
Ellis has a welcome link on the forum that says New guys and girls - START HERE.
A hot topic we have been discussing is factory new pre-shuffled cards that the nearest BM casino will have on the shoes at the tables here in the US.
Also the subject of SHUFFLEMASTER AND SHUFFLEKING shoes too.
Stuart
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
This is a quote from Ellis below.
Look, after the first play of a shoe EVERY play is either an Opposite or a Repeat. The odds are exactly 50/50. So I don't care what any Mathematician tells you - they don't know the game. With more than 30 years experience, I DO! An Opposite is when the opposite side wins relative to the last hand. A Repeat is when the same side repeats. The odds are exactly 50/50. Then why do you only win 43% of the hands? Because the game is rigged against guessers! Casinos have no fear of guessers. They only fear System Players. Less than 1% of players play systems. There is a system for every shoe ever dealt that beats that shoe. Your job is to figure out which of 6 systems beats the shoe at hand BEST. AND, which betting strategy is BEST for the shoe at hand. But no, YOU don't need to figure out which system to play. Your SAP count tells you which system is best for the shoe at hand. It's like your guardian angel. You simply do what SAP tells you to do. I can teach you SAP Counting in 5 minutes. It is nothing like card counting.
But first, lets get your bet hit rate up from 43% to 50%. That is a HUGE improvement already that I can teach you right here and now. FIRST, NEVER bet Tie or Panda or Dragon. Those are casino sucker bets. Note the color of the first card dealt each hand (to Player). It is either red or black. If it is red, next hand bet Bank. If it is black, next hand bet Player. Voila! Now you are at a 50% hit rate. Now the real work begins - getting you ABOVE 50% - millionaire territory!
Now, NO, you don't walk into a casino and grab the first seat. That is what amateurs do. Why to thieves rob banks? Because that is where the money is. I want you to start thinking like a bank robber. I want you to think of casinos as banks - because that's where the money is. You walk in and case the joint. Check ALL of the tote boards. I will teach you how to read them like a Pro! There is ALWAYS a best table to play. We look for the streakiest table first because those are the most profitable. If there aren't any that means the whole casino is favoring chop right now. Soo, we look for the choppiest tote board! (the one with the most FIRST liners relative to the remaining circles) The one with the least icicles hanging down. There are many tricks to picking the best table in the casino. I'll teach you ALL of them.
Watch my lips! Baccarat is NOT about heroically white knuckling the hardest table in the casino. That is what amateurs do. WINNING BACCARAT is about finding the EASIEST table to beat and then knowing how BEST to bet it. We are not heroes. We are WINNERS! We do it the easy way. It's not a game anymore - It's a job! Its A Business We are there for ONE purpose. THAT is where the money is! Do you get it? That is what separates Pros from amateurs. We have a purpose and we KNOW what we are looking for and why and what to do about it. Once you start THINKING like a Pro - you become one.
It may be a job but its a great paying Job.
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
Sunday BetPhoenix shoe and how to play it?????
Ellis will show he would have played it.
Stuart
Come on over and check out the BAC forum guys I have already learned a lot.
In case you guys don't know Ellis is now 78 years old and no longer sells any kind of systems or methods he also had a heart attack and a stroke some years ago, but he still loves teaching baccarat.
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
It seems that you are not recording the ties at all (going by the scorecards that you posted here and the ones that you have posted over at that web site).
In Ellis's methods, do they not factor in at all?
Just curious.
I only know the bits and pieces (that too vaguely) of his previous methods, that is why I am asking this question.
No, we pay them no mind, why because we are never going to bet on them.
TIES DONT EXIST.
I have his full Baccarat Bible and he never advised anybody to play tie at all.
Stuart
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
Ok you repeated the link a few times now. Please dont keep repeating it. Thats spamming.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 16, 06:29 PM 2018
No, we pay them no mind, why because we are never going to bet on them.
TIES DONT EXIST.
I have his full Baccarat Bible and he never advised anybody to play tie at all.
Stuart
link:://:.ecliftondavis.rocks/
If you have the pdf version, can you post it pls ?
Shuffle Machine Video and man its fast wow.
link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=txl3gqIfwHM
Quote from: cht on Apr 16, 09:15 PM 2018
If you have the pdf version, can you post it pls ?
No sorry, I have an agreement that I would share in such a manner.
It is copyrighted material.
Stuart
What I was saying was that I would not share the copyrighted material in such a manner as I have agreed with Ellis not to share in such fashion.
It is all copyrighted.
Sorry about that.
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 16, 06:29 PM 2018
...
TIES DONT EXIST.
...
Hehe, yes. Id never suggest anyone playing on the ties or say the pro bacc players got it wrong. The house edge on the Tie is giant too. Everyone saying "you cant" however got me to try of cause. First idea turned out to work ok thou not recommended. A bit "pattern breaker"-ish .. aka waiting for the expected procentage to break from the pattern. Or to to say it short .. Tie's should % happen every 10-ish hand roughly (depending if its 8.1 or 9:1 and all that). However a Tie happening Exactly every 8-10 hands is a fairly uncommon event & Tie's tend to happen overall more randomly thus resulting in clustered Ties and long break of no ties of cause.
So tried betting 1 unit flat 5 times after each Tie .. and 6 shoes later had 21 units. This dosnt prove anything. Also its disturbingly boring sitting thru the sometimes giant gaps on no ties at all. And i have no illusions about if i get hit by multiple shoes with little to no ties .. itll go downhill. So betting on tie isnt impossible, just not wise in any way.
Quote from: Thanatos on Apr 17, 04:25 PM 2018
Hehe, yes. Id never suggest anyone playing on the ties or say the pro bacc players got it wrong. The house edge on the Tie is giant too. Everyone saying "you cant" however got me to try of cause. First idea turned out to work ok thou not recommended. A bit "pattern breaker"-ish .. aka waiting for the expected procentage to break from the pattern. Or to to say it short .. Tie's should % happen every 10-ish hand roughly (depending if its 8.1 or 9:1 and all that).
However a Tie happening Exactly every 8-10 hands is a fairly uncommon event & Tie's tend to happen overall more randomly thus resulting in clustered Ties and long break of no ties of cause.
So tried betting 1 unit flat 5 times after each Tie .. and 6 shoes later had 21 units. This dosnt prove anything. Also its disturbingly boring sitting thru the sometimes giant gaps on no ties at all. And i have no illusions about if i get hit by multiple shoes with little to no ties .. itll go downhill. So betting on tie isnt impossible, just not wise in any way.
Yes, I agree that ties don't happen every 8-10 hands as per the theoretical expected frequency rates for that outcome.
On a few rare occasions, I have actually gone after the tie bet if I have NOT seen it for 20 spins.
And then I have chased it for the next 16 spins (after the first 8 spins, with a mild progression).
Surprisingly, I have won on every occasion.
I am just mentioning it.
I do NOT recommend the above strategy to be used regularly at the baccarat table.
I have observed over 40 shoes on bet phoenix the past 2 weeks
One could say it has been "tie city"
every shoe has ties
8)
This is a net betting craps test on my home craps practice table with me tossing the dice random in other words no Dice Setting and just chucking them down the table.
The results are quite good, take a look guys what do you think?????????
P stands for Pass and D stands for don't pass.
This is the Ellis reply to Net Bet for Craps.
Well, I don't know a thing about Craps and I don't want to know. Bac and BJ is more than enough for one brain to absorb. But I do know a LOT about Systems and betting strategies.
So, I played it Net Bet AD which mean Across, Down. Your progression switches sides after a 3 and keeps switching until the run ends. This did EXTREMELY well for only 48 plays. And it got through the two 3s W/O much trouble. AD3 or switching after 3 makes 3s the culprit. But U1D2 betting plowed right through the 3s with a highest bet of 5 and scored +18 in only 48 plays. I started at play 2 which I recommend for AD.
But then, looking at it from a Baccarat perspective, and also starting at play 2 for an accurate comparison. I played it S40, selecting Mode using the O/R count. It scored +22 with a highest bet of 4. Much better!
But guys, let's get practical. This is only a based on a little more than half a shoe. Both S40 and AD were tested over thousands of shoes. A half a shoe doesn't prove anything.
EXCEPT it proves one thing - you can get runs in Craps.
Therefore you MUST have a way to contend with runs. Both S40 and AD DO have a way to beat runs while keeping your bets relatively low. I've watched Craps players bet ridiculous progressions against runs. You would need thousands of dollars to bet those Martingales. Such play is totally insane. Runs Happen both in Bac and Craps.
I played S40 under the optional rule - Once ON a run, stay on the run until you lose. We do that when we have seen long runs at that casino. I would recommend that for Craps.
So OK, Net Betting did very well. But S40 did better. If I was forced to play Craps, from what I've seen so far, I would go with S40. Keep it simple but Effective! Contend with runs while keeping your bets as low as possible. In fact, EXPLOIT runs !
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 20, 08:32 AM 2018
This is a net betting craps test on my home craps practice table with me tossing the dice random in other words no Dice Setting and just chucking them down the table.
The results are quite good, take a look guys what do you think?????????
P stands for Pass and D stands for don't pass.
Ok, Ellis played my craps results and here is the verdict.
link:://content.invisioncic.com/v281409/monthly_2018_04/633762011_CrapsThePlow.jpeg.2af3ffc778b113d2d4455d5095330f50.jpeg
Wow is all I can say????
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 21, 12:26 PM 2018
Ok, Ellis played my craps results and here is the verdict.
link:://content.invisioncic.com/v281409/monthly_2018_04/633762011_CrapsThePlow.jpeg.2af3ffc778b113d2d4455d5095330f50.jpeg
Wow is all I can say????
Stuart
What’s the bet?
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 21, 12:26 PM 2018
Ok, Ellis played my craps results and here is the verdict.
link:://content.invisioncic.com/v281409/monthly_2018_04/633762011_CrapsThePlow.jpeg.2af3ffc778b113d2d4455d5095330f50.jpeg
Wow is all I can say????
Stuart
There is nothing wow-ing about it.
Ellis is exhibiting what the best progression is
AFTER the results are known.If he were playing this particular craps game LIVE one decision at a time, would he have selected the U1D2B2 progression method then ?
Therein lies the problem.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
Doc he would have played it the same way, he has a large bankroll and treats it as a business.
Since it was on craps it would have taken most likely four hours, Ellis also plays black chip level, he really knows what he is doing, he has been at it almost 40 years I am pretty sure he has seen it all.
I have also had him on the phone while I played on Betphoenix and it was just shocking how correct he was on how to play...................HE IS JUST THAT GOOD, MY HAT IS OFF TO HIM.
Stuart
Doc some people are the real DEAL some are not it is up to you.
I know Ellis is the real DEAL that's good enough for me.
Stuart
ANCIENT PROVERB, go with the flow not against it, REALLY I mean it????? O0
Stuart
Treats it as a business? As in great at marketing?
What is net betting? Will test it for myself. Thanks.
I know Ellis has forum board where you buy a membership same as Beat The Casino forum board.
Don't know about Ellis, but I would not recommend Beat The Casino.
Reason and verdict after testing a short period, you get help to understand and improve your game with good knowledge.
But you should not have the expectation that you can start flat betting and with without using some kind of progressions.
The reason is that no one shows you how to flat bet, you only get worthless hints that not help much.
Is not worth 50$ each month, you be better off using public forum boards and save the money or boost your bankroll.
Cheers
He left beat the casino a couple of years ago and now has his own forum, he is a very gifted player and I have seen him play and tested his methods and they work very well.
Many Craps players are starting to understand his methods work very well on Craps, Craps players are very hardcore, however they as I also did have to enter a DETOX program and stop always betting against a run or TREND, and GO WITH THE FLOW not against IT.
His methods work very well for Pass and Don't Pass on craps.
I had 9 pass wins in a row the other day, at least I went with the trend because of the DETOX treatment ELLIS gave me LOL.
His BACCARAT experience is second to none and that is his forte, he said Craps has so many bets in Baccarat it just comes down to two choices.
Stuart
Sunday craps session on my practice table.
Stuart
Are you going to answer the question or just keep promoting for him?
What question?????
Quote from: Blueprint on Apr 22, 07:39 AM 2018
Treats it as a business? As in great at marketing?
What is net betting? Will test it for myself. Thanks.
Hi Harold, glad to have you aboard! OK, 2 lines above your mark we had 1 vs 3. We subtract 1 from 3 giving us a 2 bet on the side of the higher entry (3). We lost, so our score goes from +12 to +10. With me so far? But now our 2 progs switch sides because we switch under 3 or mores and the shoe has just produced a 3 iar. So the losing 3 on the right goes to 4 on the left while the winning 1 on the left goes to 1 on the right. We win our 3 bet and switch again because we switch sides under 3 or mores. So the losing red 1 switches sides and goes to 2 while the winning 4 switches sides and goes to 2 (Up 1 on a loss, down 2 on a win.) So we end up at 2 vs 2 which is a no bet.
It is all very confusing when you try to write out the reasoning line by line. But read the 2 rules a few more times. I'm merely following those 2 rules.
But Herold, I didn't post that shoe as an attempt to thoroughly teach you the S3 system on a public forum. I did it merely to give you an idea what is in store for you on the Beginner forum where I, in fact, WILL teach you S3 in full detail with lots of played out samples. Suffice it for now to understand that there is such a thing as a winning mechanical Baccarat system which you won't find anywhere else on the internet.
Single system approaches work but not as well as multiple system approaches. So once you have learned S3 thoroughly on the Beginner forum, you will likely want to graduate to the Advanced forum where we concentrate on 6 systems using the SAP count to tell us which is best for the shoe at hand.
What did he teach you? Have you played NOR and NET Betting and S40 among others?
Cheers
Yes I play net betting and S40 on mostly craps, Baccarat is very boring but craps are an exciting kind of like Top Fuel Dragsters and stuff.
Craps is way slower so the units have to be larger to make a profit, one Pass or Don't Pass decision could take 20 minutes is somebody has a good roll.
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 21, 12:26 PM 2018
Ok, Ellis played my craps results and here is the verdict.
link:://content.invisioncic.com/v281409/monthly_2018_04/633762011_CrapsThePlow.jpeg.2af3ffc778b113d2d4455d5095330f50.jpeg
Wow is all I can say????
Stuart
Hi Harold, glad to have you aboard! OK, 2 lines above your mark we had 1 vs 3. We subtract 1 from 3 giving us a 2 bet on the side of the higher entry (3). We lost, so our score goes from +12 to +10. With me so far? But now our 2 progs switch sides because we switch under 3 or mores and the shoe has just produced a 3 iar. So the losing 3 on the right goes to 4 on the left while the winning 1 on the left goes to 1 on the right. We win our 3 bet and switch again because we switch sides under 3 or mores. So the losing red 1 switches sides and goes to 2 while the winning 4 switches sides and goes to 2 (Up 1 on a loss, down 2 on a win.) So we end up at 2 vs 2 which is a no bet.
It is all very confusing when you try to write out the reasoning line by line. But read the 2 rules a few more times. I'm merely following those 2 rules.
But Herold, I didn't post that shoe as an attempt to thoroughly teach you the S3 system on a public forum. I did it merely to give you an idea what is in store for you on the Beginner forum where I, in fact, WILL teach you S3 in full detail with lots of played out samples. Suffice it for now to understand that there is such a thing as a winning mechanical Baccarat system which you won't find anywhere else on the internet.
Single system approaches work but not as well as multiple system approaches. So once you have learned S3 thoroughly on the Beginner forum, you will likely want to graduate to the Advanced forum where we concentrate on 6 systems using the SAP count to tell us which is best for the shoe at hand.
This is the Craps results.
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 23, 01:24 PM 2018
Yes I play net betting and S40 on mostly craps, Baccarat is very boring but craps are an exciting kind of like Top Fuel Dragsters and stuff.
Craps is way slower so the units have to be larger to make a profit, one Pass or Don't Pass decision could take 20 minutes is somebody has a good roll.
Stuart
Stuart,
We have discussed this before but, when it comes to deciding which specific bet selection method (or its associated progressions) to choose, it is a little bit more nuanced than just saying that one game is slower than the other.
It very much matters whether you are planning to use a particular bet selection method for baccarat, craps, or roulette.
The streaks for B/P (in baccarat) and R/B, O/E, and H/L (in roulette) tend to be, on average, longer -- and those bet selection methods/progressions that are more suited for such streakier games need to be selected for these EC bets.
The P/DP runs in craps tend to be much choppier -- and so those bet selection methods that are suitable for choppy games need to be selected for this game.
If he wants to earn a premium membership, all this is bullshit.
If he is able to earn money on the game, why does he want to make money on knowledge.
With age, I experience that people who want to learn are not able to earn themselves.
I have a perfect example of forex markets, my colleague spent 10 k euros on training and he said he did not learn to earn long run.
He had different mentors, and no one taught him how to earn Money
Ellis is 78 years old and has had a stroke and a heart attack and almost lived in the Casinos for years but he likes to teach his methods for Baccarat.
Is it possible his mind is sharp but maybe his body needs a rest and he just likes to teach????
He also became ill with C Dif months ago that he got in Tunica read below about C DIF.
If he wants to make a few bucks with his forum its cool with me?????
FACTS: Clostridium difficile, or C. diff for short, is a very common bacteria found in water, air, soil, and many other environments. However, it is becoming notorious as a cause of infections contracted in healthcare settings such as hospitals and nursing-homes. It can cause severe diarrhea and cramping, as well as inflammation of the colon â€" and in some instances it can be life-threatening.
C. diff infections typically strike when, or shortly after, a patient undergoes a regime of antibiotics. While targeted at virulent bacteria, antibiotic treatments also destroy many of the numerous beneficial bacteria that reside in the gastrointestinal tract. As these good bacteria succumb, competition for resources is reduced, allowing pathogenic bacteria such as C. diff to flourish.
Because healthcare patients often suffer from weakened immune systems (due to illness or age), they are particularly prone to C. diff infections. Furthermore, C. difficile can spread easily from one patient to others via the fecal-oral route â€" often on the hands of caregivers themselves. As a result, long-term stays in healthcare establishments further elevate the risk of infection.
Finally, C. diff has the ability to form hardy spores that can survive in harsh environmental conditions for months. While bleach-based disinfectants are effective against the spores, they are not always practical to use â€" which makes C. difficile an increasingly difficult problem for healthcare establishments. And their patients.
Stuart
Quote from: ozon on Apr 23, 06:46 PM 2018
With age, I experience that people who want to learn are not able to earn themselves.
I have a perfect example of forex markets, my colleague spent 10 k euros on training and he said he did not learn to earn long run.
He had different mentors, and no one taught him how to earn Money
Give me a break, some people just get old and decide they want to teach instead of play.
The name Jack Grout comes to mind look him up he taught one of the best golfers to ever hit a one Iron.
Jack is the students name and his last name is Nicklaus.
Did you learn from him from forum board with paid membership - how much - maybe I will join.
Problem is that last time I check he took 1K for one-year membership - that is too expensive - my opinion.
Cheers
Quote from: ego on Apr 24, 10:43 AM 2018
Did you learn from him from forum board with paid membership - how much - maybe I will join.
Problem is that last time I check he took 1K for one-year membership - that is too expensive - my opinion.
Cheers
It is like ten bucks a month I think but his methods are very sound and cant be found on this forum, Ellis requires us to think and use our heads not just play a mechanical method or system.
One of his methods is doing very well with craps.
Stuart
That is a good price to get a mentor like Ellis to comment things you might do right or wrong or miss.
Where is this forum board, I would like to join, if I can talk about NOR, S40 among other methods then is much better then BTC.
They take intro fee 150$ and 50$ a month for old material like NOR and S40 among other things like SAP Count.
Everything about flat betting is only hinting with no real solution to try and that the take 50$ a month, that sucks.
If you don't want to post the link to Ellis forum board you can send me a personal message.
Thanks
I could see that you post the forum link at beginning of this topic and I send a mod a message about the membership fee.
If you get NOR, S40, SAP among other methods you can build a complex understanding and advance into a more professional area.
Not know if does methods are included, but if they are then a membership is worth each and every penny.
Cheers
Ellis does not advise flat bet, this is a business you must be CAPITALIZED and no scared money he only uses 30 units from what I remember but he is at black chip level.
I am at Red Chip level and am a beginner I use 100 chip bank.
I speak to Ellis almost every day he is a very passionate teacher, he even spent several hours on the phone with me as I played Baccarat on Betphoneix to help me understand what I was up against he had his scorecard and said ok what are the results so far in the shoe and wrote it down on his card.
This was at the red chip on Betphoenix but I like craps better not so boring lol.
Here is also the testing of S40 on craps pass don't pass decisions on paper with my home craps test table real dice tossed randomly no dice setting......just chucking em baby.
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 24, 11:51 AM 2018
It is like ten bucks a month I think but his methods are very sound and cant be found on this forum, Ellis requires us to think and use our heads not just play a mechanical method or system.
One of his methods is doing very well with craps.
Stuart
Stuart,
Where does it say that membership is only $10 a month? Can you please direct me to the specific web page where the membership fee is listed?
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 24, 03:35 PM 2018
Ellis does not advise flat bet, this is a business you must be CAPITALIZED and no scared money he only uses 30 units from what I remember but he is at black chip level.
I am at Red Chip level and am a beginner I use 100 chip bank.
I speak to Ellis almost every day he is a very passionate teacher, he even spent several hours on the phone with me as I played Baccarat on Betphoneix to help me understand what I was up against he had his scorecard and said ok what are the results so far in the shoe and wrote it down on his card.
This was at the red chip on Betphoenix but I like craps better not so boring lol.
Here is also the testing of S40 on craps pass don't pass decisions on paper with my home craps test table real dice tossed randomly no dice setting......just chucking em baby.
Stuart
Stuart,
For the scorecard that you posted for your craps results, I don't see any bar numbers. Did you not get any for this particular session?
Or are you ignoring the appearance of the bar number?
In baccarat, you can ignore the ties because they do not make you lose your banker/player bets.
But in craps, the bar number does make you
lose your pass line bet (while it is a push on your don't pass bet). So the bar numbers have to be taken into consideration in this game.
Let me if I can find the pay price page and no I ignore the Bar 12 and count it as a win on don't pass come outs, in fact, it is very rare to have a 12 on the come out roll it is just my personal choice.
Stuart
Quote from: DoctorSudoku on Apr 17, 07:24 PM 2018
Yes, I agree that ties don't happen every 8-10 hands as per the theoretical expected frequency rates for that outcome.
On a few rare occasions, I have actually gone after the tie bet if I have NOT seen it for 20 spins.
And then I have chased it for the next 16 spins (after the first 8 spins, with a mild progression).
Surprisingly, I have won on every occasion.
I am just mentioning it.
I do NOT recommend the above strategy to be used regularly at the baccarat table.
I do not recommand too that strategy but what i have saw is that after a Tie between 5 to 30 hand they are again another Tie :o
Ok here is the pricing from Ellis.
I think we have the pricing down pat now by leaving it up to the members. Ha, that was a first! You'd think that they would all say "teach us for free". But, in fact, Nobody said that. Together we came up with 14.95 / mo for the Beginner Forum. Then 24.95 for the Advances Forum. Then 49. 95 for all inclusive members who want to go to Webinars and Seminars for free. Then we came up with an annual option for members who want to save a little by paying up front. All of that is fine with me. I only had ONE concern - that we end up the lowest cost gaming training site on the entire internet. And at the pricing we ended up with - we ARE. This way, each of you becomes an Ambassador for ECD I'm going for HIGH membership in place of high pricing. Pretty smart, don't you think? Well, we'll see. It is a risk but I think a good one. Sorta like betting OTB4L in a high 2s shoe. We can't go wrong - especially when we've got Ambassadors like Vegas-Rick and Sir Donald, and the 3 Johns and a whole bunch more. This is like a home coming to me - all my friends finally have a place to roost. Thanks guys!
Quote from: AndyCasinoK on Apr 24, 06:54 PM 2018
I do not recommand too that strategy but what i have saw is that after a Tie between 5 to 30 hand they are again another Tie :o
If there is a gap of between 5 and 30 hands between ties (as per your observations), then the casual method that I mentioned in my original post would be a winner.
Read carefully what I wrote in my original post and you will see what I mean.
ive been testing shoes almost everyday on bet phoenix....the amount of ties i have been seeing is outrageous
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Apr 25, 06:57 PM 2018
ive been testing shoes almost everyday on bet phoenix....the amount of ties i have been seeing is outrageous
Rather than wasting time testing you should just make a quick visit to the wizardofvegas forum. There you will find baccarat math explained by Dr Elliot Jacobson and other mathematicians. After reading the basics you can simply do some math calculations to quickly determine whether or not you're wasting your time.
They do discuss real AP opportunities in baccarat.
Good luck,
The General
Quote from: The General on Apr 25, 07:27 PM 2018
Rather than wasting time testing you should just make a quick visit to the wizardofvegas forum. There you will find baccarat math explained by Dr Elliot Jacobson and other mathematicians. After reading the basics you can simply do some math calculations to quickly determine whether or not you're wasting your time.
They do discuss real AP opportunities in baccarat.
Good luck,
The General
Thanks for bringing up Eliot. Nice reminder. Perhaps I’ll need to track down his email address with a few questions
I think you are on the wrong thread guys?????
I think we have the pricing down pat now by leaving it up to the members. Ha, that was a first! You'd think that they would all say "teach us for free". But, in fact, Nobody said that. Together we came up with 14.95 / mo for the Beginner Forum. Then 24.95 for the Advances Forum. Then 49. 95 for all inclusive members who want to go to Webinars and Seminars for free. Then we came up with an annual option for members who want to save a little by paying up front. All of that is fine with me. I only had ONE concern - that we end up the lowest cost gaming training site on the entire internet. And at the pricing we ended up with - we ARE. This way, each of you becomes an Ambassador for ECD I'm going for HIGH membership in place of high pricing. Pretty smart, don't you think? Well, we'll see. It is a risk but I think a good one. Sorta like betting OTB4L in a high 2s shoe. We can't go wrong - especially when we've got Ambassadors like Vegas-Rick and Sir Donald, and the 3 Johns and a whole bunch more. This is like a home coming to me - all my friends finally have a place to roost. Thanks guys!
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 25, 08:13 PM 2018
I think you are on the wrong thread guys?????
I think we have the pricing down pat now by leaving it up to the members. Ha, that was a first! You'd think that they would all say "teach us for free". But, in fact, Nobody said that. Together we came up with 14.95 / mo for the Beginner Forum. Then 24.95 for the Advances Forum. Then 49. 95 for all inclusive members who want to go to Webinars and Seminars for free. Then we came up with an annual option for members who want to save a little by paying up front. All of that is fine with me. I only had ONE concern - that we end up the lowest cost gaming training site on the entire internet. And at the pricing we ended up with - we ARE. This way, each of you becomes an Ambassador for ECD I'm going for HIGH membership in place of high pricing. Pretty smart, don't you think? Well, we'll see. It is a risk but I think a good one. Sorta like betting OTB4L in a high 2s shoe. We can't go wrong - especially when we've got Ambassadors like Vegas-Rick and Sir Donald, and the 3 Johns and a whole bunch more. This is like a home coming to me - all my friends finally have a place to roost. Thanks guys!
Stuart,
Just curious ....... is his training materials available to his program subscribers as paper manuals and/or electronic (pdf) files?
All electronic docs PDF and other file types.
Stuart
Oh do you have any more craps rolls????
This was posted on the Ellis forum, take a look if you like.
All I can say is nobody plays BACCARAT on this forum like the way Ellis Davis does, if you are making 500 dollars a day doing what you are doing great keep doing it,,,,,,,,,,,,,HOWEVER if you are open to be teachable and accountable to make 500 dollars a day then take a look below.
First, thank you to everyone for your patience, we are in the process of getting everything together for the premium memberships.
Ellis and I spoke and he is no longer going to be selling his thousand dollar manual, he is actually going to be giving away the manual to all monthly premium members.
We will have 3 different membership levels, we will have a beginner's forum that will be priced at $14.95 a month,
there will be an advanced player's forum that will be priced at $24.95 a month which will also include the beginner's forum and
there will also an all-inclusive membership that includes an all-access pass to everything on the site.
This all-access pass will include live webinars as well as archived webinars and all recorded training videos. Plus as a special bonus, you will be invited to our online casino game forum the first on the internet all for only $49.95 a month.
You will be able to stay as little or as long as you'd like on the forum because we will never charge to access the free open baccarat forum.
We are committed to making this the number 1 online forum for learning and profiting from the casinos on a daily basis.
Whether you are looking to just add a few extra dollars or replace a full-time income, whatever your personal goals are we are here to help you achieve those goals.
This is your forum and to have this level of access to Ellis is absolutely HUGE because he is literally the best person in the world to learn from in order to generate a consistent income from the casino's, which is why we are all here.
You are going to be blown away and what you will learn and I know I am excited to get going and I know Ellis is as well.
So we will be able to start taking payments starting Tuesday, May 1st and as a special bonus for everyone that signs up the first week and as a way of saying thank you for your patience while we were getting the forum setup, we will be doing a special FREE meet and greet webinar to give you a chance to
talk to Ellis and get a feel for what you are in store for moving forward.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 26, 09:50 AM 2018
This was posted on the Ellis forum, take a look if you like.
All I can say is nobody plays BACCARAT on this forum like the way Ellis Davis does, if you are making 500 dollars a day doing what you are doing great keep doing it,,,,,,,,,,,,,HOWEVER if you are open to be teachable and accountable to make 500 dollars a day then take a look below.
First, thank you to everyone for your patience, we are in the process of getting everything together for the premium memberships.
Ellis and I spoke and he is no longer going to be selling his thousand dollar manual, he is actually going to be giving away the manual to all monthly premium members.
We will have 3 different membership levels, we will have a beginner's forum that will be priced at $14.95 a month,
there will be an advanced player's forum that will be priced at $24.95 a month which will also include the beginner's forum and
there will also an all-inclusive membership that includes an all-access pass to everything on the site.
This all-access pass will include live webinars as well as archived webinars and all recorded training videos. Plus as a special bonus, you will be invited to our online casino game forum the first on the internet all for only $49.95 a month.
You will be able to stay as little or as long as you'd like on the forum because we will never charge to access the free open baccarat forum.
We are committed to making this the number 1 online forum for learning and profiting from the casinos on a daily basis.
Whether you are looking to just add a few extra dollars or replace a full-time income, whatever your personal goals are we are here to help you achieve those goals.
This is your forum and to have this level of access to Ellis is absolutely HUGE because he is literally the best person in the world to learn from in order to generate a consistent income from the casino's, which is why we are all here.
You are going to be blown away and what you will learn and I know I am excited to get going and I know Ellis is as well.
So we will be able to start taking payments starting Tuesday, May 1st and as a special bonus for everyone that signs up the first week and as a way of saying thank you for your patience while we were getting the forum setup, we will be doing a special FREE meet and greet webinar to give you a chance to
talk to Ellis and get a feel for what you are in store for moving forward.
COOL! So when you get the "Thousand Dollar Manual" as part of your membership you can share it for FREE with all of us on this forum! :thumbsup:
NO CAN DO ITS ALL COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL BOSS.
I dont think Steve would appriciate people giving his stuff away either.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 26, 10:22 AM 2018
NO CAN DO ITS ALL COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL BOSS.
I dont think Steve would appriciate people giving his stuff away either.
Yeah but Steve doesn`t charge for his forum or his secrets... :)
However he does sell his roulette computers.
By charging a fee it does keep the Riff Raff to some extent at bay.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 26, 10:54 AM 2018
However he does sell his roulette computers.
By charging a fee it does keep the Riff Raff to some extent at bay.
Not a Riff Raff, just Very Sceptic.
So keep us updated with your results...
I understand.
QuoteEllis is one of the top 10 Baccarat players in the US.
Is your friend, Ellis, a "sort" player, or is he counting down the side bets?
What kind of bac ap is he?
He is the kind of player who wins 57 percent of the hands he plays.
He only plays PLAYER OR BANKER AND ONCE HE STARTS HE PLAYS EVERY SINGLE HAND.
THE SIDE BETs ARE NOT GOOD BETS AND are SUCKER BETS.
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 26, 02:37 PM 2018
He is the kind of player who wins 57 percent of the hands he plays.
He only plays PLAYER OR BANKER AND ONCE HE STARTS HE PLAYS EVERY SINGLE HAND.
THE SIDE BETs ARE NOT GOOD BETS AND are SUCKER BETS.
Stuart
I agree -- the dragon and panda side bets (along with the less common banker pair and player pair side bets) that you find
in US casinos are sucker bets.
But the high payouts associated with these bets lure suckers in all the time without fail.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 26, 02:37 PM 2018
He is the kind of player who wins 57 percent of the hands he plays.
He only plays PLAYER OR BANKER AND ONCE HE STARTS HE PLAYS EVERY SINGLE HAND.
THE SIDE BETs ARE NOT GOOD BETS AND are SUCKER BETS.
Stuart
If he is indeed winning 57% of the hands that he bets on, then why do some of his systems use negative progressions?
With a 57% win rate, you can be in positive territory consistently
with just flat bets (this will be true even with the 5% commission that you have to pay on winning banker bets).
Doc first things first he needed to make more money because he was playing full time he told me flat betting would net him about five units but with the up one down two progression he averaged about 12 units per shoe.
The table minimum in the late 80s was 100 dollars.
He uses an up one, down two progression.
Ellis played full time for many years but health problems took him out of the casinos.
Again Doc some people are really really very very good at things, Ellis is a VIRTUOSO at baccarat.
His health issues prevent him from going to the casinos like he used to plus he is a diabetic.
Its up to you, believe or dont believe but he really is very good at baccarat.
NOBODY plays like him on this forum and I mean NOBODY????
Stuart
Doc I sent you a PM with Ellis phone number he said he would be glad to speak to you and is awaiting your your call and questions.
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 26, 02:37 PM 2018
He is the kind of player who wins 57 percent of the hands he plays.
He only plays PLAYER OR BANKER AND ONCE HE STARTS HE PLAYS EVERY SINGLE HAND.
THE SIDE BETs ARE NOT GOOD BETS AND are SUCKER BETS.
Stuart
Your friend sounds like he's maybe a bit inexperienced.
Some of the highest edges are found by counting and exploiting some of the more exotic bac side bets. For example the Lucky Nines in the live game can provide a huge edge!
Eliot Jacobson Ph.D.
Eliot Jacobson Ph.D.
6 February 2013
"Sometimes a side bet comes along that dwarfs the others in terms of its card counting vulnerability. Such was the case with the Slingo Bonus Bet 21 side bet for blackjack. When I read about the Lucky Nines (LN) baccarat side bet on the Wizard of Vegas website, I immediately realized that it might be the most vulnerable baccarat side bet I've seen. In fact, it may be the most vulnerable side bet, period. This bet pays based on the total number of nines in the first four cards dealt to the Banker and Player hands, with bonuses for suited nines. Intuitively, a simple nines count should be more than adequate to crush this bet.
There is a catch, however. This side bet is not available for ordinary baccarat. Instead, LN is the proprietary property of the Slovenian company Interblock. It is currently only available on their electro-mechanical eight-deck baccarat, as demonstrated in this video:
In this magazine article in the February, 2012 issue of Casino Journal, Interblock stated that:
“Our blackjack and baccarat games now have a new featured side bet called Lucky Aces and Lucky Nines,†O’Brien said. “This additional side bet will increase the return for the operator of an additional hold anywhere from 4 percent to 6 percent without changing original game-play for blackjack or baccarat.â€
There appears to be plenty of momentum to bring LN into production.
Let’s move onto the game itself. After making a wager on LN, the first four cards of the baccarat hand are dealt. By examining those four cards, the LN wager is resolved. The payouts are:
Four nines pays 1000-to-1
Three nines, same suit, pays 500-to-1
Three nines, different suits, pays 35-to-1
Two nines, same suit, pays 16-to-1
Two nines, different suits, pays 5-to-1
One nine of diamonds pays 2-to-1
One nine, club, heart, spade, pays 1-to-1
All others lose
Here is the combinatorial analysis:
In particular:
The house edge is 8.273%
The hit frequency is 29.485%
The standard deviation is 7.209%
The following table gives the effect of removal (EOR) for each card. Note the very large EOR for nines, in particular for the nine of diamonds. Removing a single nine from the shoe moves the edge towards the house by over 3.3%. Removing any non-nine from the shoe moves the edge towards the player by about 0.38%.
The balanced card counting system I tested that gave the best return has the following tags:
A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, T, J, Q, K = +1
Any nine = -12
I tested a few systems that gave a slightly higher tag to the nine of diamonds. However, these systems did not improve on the return given by the simple system above.
The following table gives the results of using this count against LN. These results were obtained by a simulation of one hundred million (100,000,000) eight-deck shoes, with the cut card placed at the traditional location of 14 cards from the end.
An AP who wagers $100 on the LN side bet every time the true count is +4 or higher can expect to make the LN bet on 28.14% of the hands. His average edge when he makes the LN bet will be about 25.10%. The AP will earn about $574 per shoe.
By comparison, playing the Dragon side bet in EZ Baccarat, the AP expects to earn about $60 per shoe. It follows that LN returns 857% more than the Dragon side bet. The closest baccarat side bet to LN in vulnerability is the Easy Six side bet that returns about $89 per shoe. In this case, LN returns 545% more than Easy Six. These comparisons make it clear that LN is extraordinarily vulnerable to card counting.
The most vulnerable wager in the Slingo blackjack side bet is to bet on a dealer 21. That bet pays 19-to-1 if the dealer has blackjack. Out of all the various Slingo options, this is the wager of choice for a solo card counter. The profit per 100 hands for this Slingo AP is 4.94 units. By comparison, for the AP who is targeting LN, the profit per 100 hands is 7.06 units. Given the increased game speed for Interblock's baccarat due to the automated mechanism, the solo AP will get a much better result against LN than against Slingo.
One possible way to protect LN is to decrease the penetration through the shoe. The following table gives the card counting statistics for LN for cut card placements from 14 cards to 208 cards (4 decks) using the card counting system given above. Each line in this table was created by a simulation of twenty million (20,000,000) eight-deck shoes.
As this data shows, even if the cut card is placed half-way through the shoe, the AP is still earning more from LN than from playing against the Dragon side bet. There is simply no reasonable way to protect LN by decreasing the penetration.
After my challenging experience with DEQ and the EZ Baccarat Dragon Side Bet, I decided to be proactive and contact Interblock prior to releasing this post. My tone was a bit tough and arrogant with Interblock. I’ve got to learn how to communicate this type of information up the latter in a professional manner. However, surprisingly for me, they were completely open to what I had to say."
Eh general. Wouldn’t call him inexperienced. He just plays in a way you don’t
But who knew? You are a baccarat AP player as well. Bringing down those dragons snowman?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Apr 26, 10:26 PM 2018
Eh general. Wouldn’t call him inexperienced. He just plays in a way you don’t
But who knew? You are a baccarat AP player as well. Bringing down those dragons snowman?
Yes I have some AP experience with the side bets and sort play "edging."
Please. Expose us to the lucky 9 side bet knowledge. We await with open ears
we should close the casinos?
Oh, you don’t do this already?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Apr 26, 10:28 PM 2018
Please. Expose us to the lucky 9 side bet knowledge. We await with open ears
we should close the casinos?
Oh, you don’t do this already?
It's explained in great detail above by Dr. Jacobson. And yes, I have exploited it before.
Lucky 9 does not exist on live tables I believe. Where is this side bet.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Apr 26, 10:32 PM 2018
Lucky 9 does not exist on live tables I believe. Where is this side bet.
Sorry, but if I tell you then I've got to off ya! You can read about more on wizard of vegas.
Discuss Card counting the dragon bet
A real discussion. Math
How is it done
I played with a guy in Atlantic City. He seemed to be playing the dragon bet only.
Made a ton
Rumor has it there advantage here
General, we can agree to disagree.
General, I play Player and Banker, and Pass and Don't Pass in craps that it.
Again we can agree to disagree if you like Ellis will be glad to speak to you on the phone or in person not on this forum over the internet in the text.
Stuart
Ez baccarat in AC has dragon
There is supposed to be an AP to this
Ghost you can study what's written above.
General. Caleb. Snowman. Baldman shaking head. Is this interblock still available?
This is from ECD.......................Ellis Davis from his personal BACCARAT forum.
Clifton Davis
Here is the straight dope on Baccarat!
I'll post my personal story somewhere here when I have the time. I posted a little bit of it on the public Roulette Forum. You might want to take a look. Suffice it to say, for now, that even my competitors, on their own sites, say that I'm the best Baccarat Instructor on the planet. I don't blame you for maybe not believing that right off - but you soon will as time goes on. That's not what I'm here to talk about.
What I want to talk about FIRST is to give you an idea of what you are up against as a novice Bac Player: I don't care if you have been playing this game for 20 years. To me, you are a novice. The average Bac player has a 43% hands won rate - meaning they lose 57% of the bets they make. You are not going to win any money with a 43% hands won rate.
I know how the average player plays: I watch them all the time. They walk into a casino, look for the first empty seat at a table playing their stakes. Then they either bet based on their interpretation of the history of the shoe OR they follow the player with the most money on the table. THAT is exactly what you do, isn't it. That is exactly what the casino WANTS you to do. You are a guesser. Whether you are guessing based on history or following another guesser - you are a guesser. More than 99% of Bac players are guessers. Casinos KNOW that. The game is rigged against guessers! And they are held down to a 43% bet win rate. Casinos are very good at what they see as their job. Casinos admit to a 15% table take rate on avg. Actually they take out table overhead so their real profit rate is much higher. Meaning: YOUR win rate is actually less than 43%! Look, if the casinos weren't winning at 57%, they wouldn't even deal Baccarat. They would replace the Bac table area with slot machines which make even more money for the casino. THAT is what you are up against. BUT:
Look, Baccarat is a 50/50 game! It is the only 50/50 game in the casino. Yeah, I know that Mathematicians say the odds favor the casino. I'm a retired Math Professor myself. My specialty was Calculus. Among other things Calculus is the Mathematics of odds. Right, Bank has a slight edge over Player. But nobody has EVER beat the game betting Bank only. Many have tried. Commission has NOTHING to do with the table odds any more than what you paid the cab driver to get to the casino.
After the first play of a shoe EVERY play is either an Opposite or a Repeat. The odds are exactly 50/50. So I don't care what any Mathematician tells you - they don't know the game. With more than 30 years experience, I DO! An Opposite is when the opposite side wins relative to the last hand. A Repeat is when the same side repeats. The odds are exactly 50/50. Then why do you only win 43% of the hands? Because the game is rigged against guessers! Casinos have no fear of guessers. They only fear System Players. Less than 1% of players play systems. There is a system for every shoe ever dealt that beats that shoe. Your job is to figure out which of 6 systems beats the shoe at hand BEST. AND, which betting strategy is BEST for the shoe at hand. But no, YOU don't need to figure out which system to play. Your SAP count tells you which system is best for the shoe at hand. It's like your guardian angel. You simply do what SAP tells you to do. I can teach you SAP Counting in 5 minutes. It is nothing like card counting.
But first, lets get your bet hit rate up from 43% to 50%. That is a HUGE improvement already that I can teach you right here and now. FIRST, NEVER bet Tie or Panda or Dragon. Those are casino sucker bets. Note the color of the first card dealt each hand (to Player). It is either red or black. If it is red, next hand bet Bank. If it is black, next hand bet Player. Voila! Now you are at a 50% hit rate! Now the real work begins - getting you ABOVE 50% - millionaire territory!
So, NO, you don't walk into a casino and grab the first seat. That is what amateurs do. Why to thieves rob banks? Because that is where the money is. I want you to start thinking like a bank robber. I want you to think of casinos as banks - because that's where the money is. You walk in and case the joint. Check ALL of the tote boards. I will teach you how to read them like a Pro! There is ALWAYS a best table to play. We look for the streakiest table first because those are the most profitable. If there aren't any that means the whole casino is favoring chop right now. Soo, we look for the choppiest tote board! (the one with the most FIRST liners relative to the remaining circles) The one with the least icicles hanging down. There are many tricks to picking the best table in the casino. I'll teach you ALL of them.
Watch my lips! Baccarat is NOT about heroically white knuckling the hardest table in the casino. That is what amateurs do. WINNING BACCARAT is about finding the EASIEST table to beat and then knowing how BEST to bet it. We are not heroes. We are WINNERS! We do it the easy way. It's not a game anymore - It's a job! We are there for ONE purpose. THAT is where the money is! Do you get it? That is what separates Pros from amateurs. We have purpose and we KNOW what we are looking for and why and what to do about it. Once you start THINKING like a Pro - you become one!
And NO, we don't drink alcohol at the table. That comes later after finishing playing for the day. Fine, reward yourself for winning. Then get a good night's sleep because tomorrow we are going to do it all over again. Playing full time, I went 3 years in AC W/O a single losing day. But then I got barred. So then I went 8 years in Tunica W/O a losing day. The high stakes hostess at Flamingo, Vegas looked up my playing record when Keith was trying to get me a comp. "Sorry, no we won't comp Ellis. Here is his play record for all 40 Caesar's group casinos. While a 'Most Frequent Player', Ellis hasn't had a losing day at any of our 40 casinos in the last 20 years. But you Keith - we will gladly comp. along with everyone else in your group - except Ellis." I couldn't have cared less. While she and Keith were arguing I won $4000 at a high stakes BJ table, 10 feet away.
So, you have 4 choices:
1.)You can try teaching yourself like everyone else in the casino. I haven't seen that work in the last 30 years.
2.) You can try learning from our free public forum. I haven't seen that work either.
3.) You can join our Beginner Private Forum @ $15 / Mo where I teach you basics along with ONE good net bet system that usually wins. You can always join the Advanced forum later.
4.) You can join our Advanced Private Forum where I teach you EVERYTHING I know @ $25 a month - The 6 best Baccarat systems and the SAP Count to tell you which system is best for the shoe at hand. Like that on line shoe I played on the public forum. That was OTB4L - one of the 6 systems, played right by the book EVERY play, every bet. Check it out! You keep getting better at this game forever!
That is all you pay. I will no longer charge for manuals. They will be posted on the Private Forum for free.
That makes ECD the lowest cost Baccarat training on the internet - yet the best by far.
Sure we will also do on line seminars to get certain points across better. But I want those seminars full so we won't charge much.
There is NO Math involved. Anybody can do what I did! It is just a question of devotion and I'm right there with you every step of the way. BTW, I often play in the casinos with my students.
Ellis
Thanks guys Stuart.
Another test today.
Stuart
Ellis Davis bio just to check out guys.
Stuart
I Was born Ellis Clifton Davis in Charleston, SC. Raised in upstate NY.
Degreed in Architecture, Engineering and Business with a clinically tested 160 IQ.
Left a very successful Math Professorship at SUNY to play Bac and BJ full time.
Started a $28,000 scholarship program at SUNY.
Pirated by Corporation after Corporation for proficiency in Systems Design. Went from the drafting board at
GE to 30 Rock. Was Consultant for the baggage handling system at Ohare.
Was Math Professor at SUNY specializing in Calculus which among other things is The Mathematics of Odds.
Wrote NBJ (New Blackjack) in mid '80s - considered the BJ Bible - sold a greater sales dollar volume than all other gaming books combined. Also wrote Zero Proximity BJ, WCB (World Class BJ), NBJ First Base BJ and NBJ Team Play BJ. Also authored the first ever and eleven other Baccarat books. The infamous Kenny Uston said: “Ellis’ 0 Prox is the very best way the game can be played.
Began full time Bac and BJ play in 1991. Was the most notorious player in Atlantic City that decade. Was assigned a casino consortium of a dozen "clip board bluecoats" who followed him everywhere for months recording every play whether BJ or Baccarat. Was barred from every casino in AC and eventually most in Las Vegas. Played the Indian casinos in MN, CT and NY. Also played the Gulf Coast, The Bahamas, The Canary Islands and Tunica, MS
Playing Baccarat in Tunica full time - went 8 years W/O a losing day.
Trained eight highly successful 5 man BJ teams for Bahama eight deck. All were barred for life.
Holds several BJ and Baccarat performance world records:
$10,000 in less than a half hour W/O betting over $200. He did that twice in front of 240 invited spectators both at the Taj, A.C.
Performed hundreds of Baccarat training seminars complete with live casino exhibitions.
Was high money winner in the World Champion of Baccarat.
When challenged on line he produced a 26% avg Player Advantage for 6 shoes at two casinos in A.C. while his challenger watched - a world record, by far, for 6 shoes.
Began teaching BJ and Baccarat full time in 2001 through seminars and his teaching site On Line.
While highly proficient at it Davis never used Card Counting. Like Don Johnson, he discovered
"There is a far better way to play this game!"
Recently performed a Baccarat Table Take Down at Flamingo, Vegas. (Ran the dealer out of chips in two shoes.) They had to close the table.
Developed the SAP Count, Now used world wide by successful Baccarat Players and considered by Davis and his competitors alike as the single greatest winning breakthrough in the history of Baccarat. He now teaches SAP counting as the best System Selector for Baccarat ever created.
Developed the 5 NOR Systems which together with ANB beat today’s Baccarat consistently.
Recently started his own Baccarat Teaching Forum called ECD.
“I’ll teach you Everything I know, and I know a LOT!â€
Sounds like a living legend.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 28, 06:41 PM 2018
Ellis Davis bio just to check out guys.
Stuart
I Was born Ellis Clifton Davis in Charleston, SC. Raised in upstate NY.
Degreed in Architecture, Engineering and Business
Left a very successful Math Professorship at SUNY to play Bac and BJ full time.
Started a $28,000 scholarship program at SUNY.
Pirated by Corporation after Corporation for proficiency in Systems Design. Went from the drafting board at
GE to 30 Rock. Was Consultant for the baggage handling system at Ohare.
Was Math Professor at SUNY specializing in Calculus which among other things is The Mathematics of Odds.
Wrote NBJ (New Blackjack) in mid '80s - considered the BJ Bible - sold a greater sales dollar volume than all other gaming books combined. Also wrote Zero Proximity BJ, WCB (World Class BJ), NBJ First Base BJ and NBJ Team Play BJ. Also authored the first ever and eleven other Baccarat books. The infamous Kenny Uston said: “Ellis’ 0 Prox is the very best way the game can be played.
Began full time Bac and BJ play in 1991. Was the most notorious player in Atlantic City that decade. Was assigned a casino consortium of a dozen "clip board bluecoats" who followed him everywhere for months recording every play whether BJ or Baccarat. Was barred from every casino in AC and eventually most in Las Vegas. Played the Indian casinos in MN, CT and NY. Also played the Gulf Coast, The Bahamas, The Canary Islands and Tunica, MS
Playing Baccarat in Tunica full time - went 8 years W/O a losing day.
Trained eight highly successful 5 man BJ teams for Bahama eight deck. All were barred for life.
Holds several BJ and Baccarat performance world records:
$10,000 in less than a half hour W/O betting over $200. He did that twice in front of 240 invited spectators both at the Taj, A.C.
Performed hundreds of Baccarat training seminars complete with live casino exhibitions.
Was high money winner in the World Champion of Baccarat.
When challenged on line he produced a 26% avg Player Advantage for 6 shoes at two casinos in A.C. while his challenger watched - a world record, by far, for 6 shoes.
Began teaching BJ and Baccarat full time in 2001 through seminars and his teaching site On Line.
While highly proficient at it Davis never used Card Counting. Like Don Johnson, he discovered
"There is a far better way to play this game!"
Recently performed a Baccarat Table Take Down at Flamingo, Vegas. (Ran the dealer out of chips in two shoes.) They had to close the table.
Developed the SAP Count, Now used world wide by successful Baccarat Players and considered by Davis and his competitors alike as the single greatest winning breakthrough in the history of Baccarat. He now teaches SAP counting as the best System Selector for Baccarat ever created.
Developed the 5 NOR Systems which together with ANB beat today’s Baccarat consistently.
Recently started his own Baccarat Teaching Forum called ECD.
“I’ll teach you Everything I know, and I know a LOT!â€
Stuart,
Somewhat surprised that there is no mention of
MvD in the above self-promotional bio put out by Ellis:
link:s://:.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Gm3lWsPnPKiLjwT_-4zgDg&q=baccarat+mvd&oq=baccarat+mvd&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1491.4987.0.5400.14.13.0.0.0.0.165.1399.0j11.12.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.11.1375.6..0j35i39k1j0i20i264k1j0i131k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i20i264i46k1j46i20i264k1j33i160k1.122.o6HaQuRzon4
Do not know but I gave you his number and looks forward to conversing with you, you are smart guy that's why I gave you his number, go ask the man himself.
I am sure you will get some questions answered.
Stuart
Here is some info on the factory pre-shuffled cards.
So early Tuesday morning I did what I should have done in the first place â€" I asked the pit boss.
“Yes sir, we recently changed to all factory preshuffled cards.â€
If you don’t know yet, you soon will:
So called “factory preshuffled cards†are actually not shuffled at all. They originally come to the table in a sealed and numbered bundle of 8 decks arranged in known casino favorable card orders. You are playing fixed cards! Sure, maybe they went into a shuffle machine. Ha, but casinos are not going to upset the card orders they paid for.
These cards were not only fixed â€" they were very obviously fixed specifically to beat NOR Baccarat!
Now don’t get me wrong. Factory cards don’t always beat NOR. Caesars, Vegas is 100% factory cards and I have recently soundly beaten them with NOR.
Net betting does very well with these preshuffled cards.
Quote from: bikemotorman on Apr 29, 08:25 AM 2018
Here is some info on the factory pre-shuffled cards.
So early Tuesday morning I did what I should have done in the first place â€" I asked the pit boss.
“Yes sir, we recently changed to all factory preshuffled cards.â€
If you don’t know yet, you soon will:
So called “factory preshuffled cards†are actually not shuffled at all. They originally come to the table in a sealed and numbered bundle of 8 decks arranged in known casino favorable card orders. You are playing fixed cards! Sure, maybe they went into a shuffle machine. Ha, but casinos are not going to upset the card orders they paid for.
These cards were not only fixed â€" they were very obviously fixed specifically to beat NOR Baccarat!
Now don’t get me wrong. Factory cards don’t always beat NOR. Caesars, Vegas is 100% factory cards and I have recently soundly beaten them with NOR.
Net betting does very well with these preshuffled cards.
What happens to these pre-shuffled decks after they are used for the first time? Are they used again after being shuffled by hand or machines -- or are they for one-time use only?
Stuart,
A funny story about pre-shuffled decks:
link:://:.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/08/golden_nugget_suing_card_manuf.html
Well, I will join and see if I can improve my play with SAP count and talk about entering points when observing bias (NOR Method).
Cheers
Quote from: DoctorSudoku on Apr 29, 08:32 AM 2018
Stuart,
A funny story about pre-shuffled decks:
link:://:.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/08/golden_nugget_suing_card_manuf.html
Yes Doc that is what Ellis has been saying except in that article the card maker forgot to put them in the correct ordert the casino wanted.
Ellis said the Asian players love to see streaks of long runs Player or Banker.
Like So......PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPBBBBBBBBBBPPPBPBPBPBPBBBBBBBBBBBBBPPPPPPPPPPPPPPBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP.
Those guys were most likely going nuts lol.
Stuart
I try to make some post at Ellis forum and I get no response, asking simple questions. Maybe is better to be tactical and wait for the forum to get some real action before purchasing a membership. Is dead at the moment. That is my impression. So after a couple of months, it might be better to join when they get some topics going and have the opportunity to recruit new members.
Cheers
There is a free public forum but you must register.
I will see if I see your post.
Results from Ameristar in Feb.
PASS DONT PASS RESULTS.
I posted the above results on a Craps only forum and the guys saw no betting OPP I said look at the pass and don't pass more like a good Baccarat player.
Do you guys see opportunities on the sheet?
Just curious????
Always heard, that Baccarat is much easyer to gain profit then it is with roulette.
Yes, I agree the craps guys just said it looks like random results but in the results, there are patterns we can play on to profit some units which are the name of the game PROFIT.
Ok here is today's test results craps pass don't pass decisions.
Stuart
I use a 12345 progression up one on a loss, down two on a win always starting at one unit as our base BET.
The above results are hand tossed by me and are about 3 hours worth of work my practice craps table has the real pyramid rubber back on the end of the table and from what the experts in craps say tends to randomize the dice.
No, I am not trying to get anybody to do anything, but just showing an outside the box approach that many profit from in Baccarat and adapted it to Craps.
Sorry, where is the outside the box approach you mention?
Now I have joined the paid membership, feels great to only talk with people like Ellis and others who really are into even money bets.
Cheers
Yes I know he has years of success and I am not knocking anybody here but there are so many trolls and just people who really want to cause harm to others.
Stuart
WE NEED TO GO WITH THE FLOW SO WE CAN capture a profitable trend in the ebb and flow of craps decisions.
Ok
Quote from: bikemotorman on May 01, 10:46 PM 2018
I use a 12345 progression up one on a loss, down two on a win always starting at one unit as our base BET.
The above results are hand tossed by me and are about 3 hours worth of work my practice craps table has the real pyramid rubber back on the end of the table and from what the experts in craps say tends to randomize the dice.
No, I am not trying to get anybody to do anything, but just showing an outside the box approach that many profit from in Baccarat and adapted it to Craps.
This is a
modified D'Alembert that you are using, but what do you do when you bet with 5 units -- and you lose?
Do you stay at 5 units or do you reset back at 1 unit?
Is the name U1D2 and stands for up 1 down 2 - is that correct?
Cheers
If you lose the five unit play it seldom happens but I just stop playing and retrack.
Ellis says go back to one unit.
Stuart
Well, one more great test my hand tossing the dice in a random fashion no dice setting at all.
Stuart
Quote from: ego on May 04, 10:16 AM 2018
Is the name U1D2 and stands for up 1 down 2 - is that correct?
Cheers
Yes, it is (as far as I know).
It is basically a
modified D 'Alembert method.
No Doc it is not modified anything its just up one on a loss down two on a win.
Stuart
Quote from: bikemotorman on May 04, 07:41 PM 2018
No Doc it is not modified anything its just up one on a loss down two on a win.
Stuart
Stuart,
There are very strong similarities between the two.
The original D'Alembert is up one unit on a loss and down one unit on a win -- so it is basically U1D1.
Ellis's method is up one unit on a loss and down two units on a win -- in other words, it is U1D2.
That is why I said it looks like a modified D'Alembert progression.
What happens with this forum board I join, now I can not access as it does not exist. Hope is a just temporary issue.
Cheers
I just called Ellis he is checking with his web Guy to see what happend.
Stuart
I have never heard of Ellis. I just hope that he's knowledgeable of the mathematics of gambling because there's already too much pattern fallacy nonsense like there is on the betselection forum.
People are not interested in paying to hear someone preach money management and gaming discipline. If they were then the bet forum would be filled with posters other than the main three bloviating bloggers.
I hope he is teaching counting based on sound mathematics and referencing gaming experts like Mike Shackleford and Dr. Jacobson. If not, then his pay forum will fail.
If Ellis needs advice please let him know that he can freely consult with me and I can tell him whether or not his system will work.
-The General
General, I did ask him about these rare so-called pattern systems and he said they are JUNK and in Baccarat it is for all intent and purpose 50/50 if the pattern shows up, or does not show up.
He also said he did try that stuff almost 30 years ago.
He is a tough old guy who hung around AC for like years and years but here is some info from the Man himself.
I know what a lot of you are thinking: Is this guy Davis for real or is he just another scam like all the other scammers on the internet. Well, I don't blame you. There are a LOT of scammers out there. Plus there are some honest guys who simply don't realize that they are incompetent, not up to date, not casino savvy. I've had a competent internet researcher searching the internet to find out exactly what my competition is up to. Guys, the best of them are where I was 25 years ago. None of them know the difference between "factory preshuffled cards" vs. hand shuffled cards or machine shuffled cards. Ha, one of the more prominent of them just learned last month that here in the US, but also everywhere in the world, TODAY, we are up against factory cards and he learned that his methods simply don't beat factory cards - a rude awakening for him. Before he tried to play against factory cards all of his play was down in Central America some place where they were still dealing hand shuffled.
Look. if you are playing a real casino, NONE of them deal hand shuffled cards anymore. You are up against machine shuffled or factory preshuffled. Either way, you are mostly playing against fixed cards designed to beat guessers. Casinos are making twice the profits they were making with hand shuffled. THAT is what you need to know how to beat. And I've been beating them for years. I know HOW!
Then there is BTC, which I established 15 years ago. Since I left 2 and a half years ago, they removed all of my teachings to avoid copyright infringement and their private membership went from hundreds down to 13 last time I checked. Need I say more?
CFC? Forget it. I was all they had and I'm GONE! Their membership is going the same way BTC went and for the same reason.
Look guys, I know how to beat factory preshuffled, machine shuffled as well as hand shuffled. Been there, done that! And with my students right along side me following my every move. 6 of us did the table take down at Flamingo, Vegas recently. Ran them clean out of chips in TWO shoes! They had to close the table! I hadn't seen that in 20 years. Ha, neither had the Dealer or the Pit Boss or my fellow students.
Guys, you don't have to believe me: Ask virtually any casino! Ask at Flamingo, Vegas, ask at Gold Strike, Tunica. Ask any long time student of mine. THEY are HERE! Ask Caesars.
By their own computer records, the Caesars group says that while I am easily a most frequent player, I haven't had a losing day at any of their 40 casinos in the last 20 years. Isn't that the kind of record you want your teacher to have??? Who else has such a record? Certainly none of these guys on the internet.
So yes, I had problems with the owners at both BTC and CFC. But I learned a good life lesson.
So finally I've started MY OWN forum in my own name. John understands that. HE is the provider of MY forum. I'm the boss. I call the shots. Ask John. He'll tell you the SAME thing. John has been a student of mine since 1991. And for good reason. A LOT of guys here are LONG time students of mine. Just ask them.
So, OK, what do you get at ECD???
What do you get on the Advanced Private Forum ??? For starters, you get a 24 page manual - The Final Word by E. Clifton Davis - including played out games on score card complete with play explanations. It is already posted. It is the BIBLE of Baccarat. But instead of charging you a thousand dollars like before, it is completely free to all Advanced Private Members. It is crammed full of EVERYTHING I know about Baccarat. I condensed and updated a thousand pages of instruction from BTC and CFC into 24 pages at ECD.
WHY? While nobody will read a thousand pages, EVERYBODY will READ 24 pages and you will read it again and again just like I want you to. The light bulbs will start turning on. And with MY help, more and more light bulbs turn on. BTW, with ME, there is no such thing as a dumb question. I teach everyone at their own level of understanding. There is NOTHING you can ask me that hasn't been asked before. And I answer you in plain English.
Ellis, what's an Opposite?
An Opposite is when the other side wins relative to the last play. If B won the last hand, P is the Opposite side. While, if P won the last hand, B is the Opposite. Simple. Get it?
So, when you are playing S40 because the shoe is Choppy, your "normal betting routine" is Opposites. If B just won, you bet P and if P just won, you bet B. BUT, all shoes have runs. Your O/R count tells you when to go ON runs as well as when to get off runs and go back to your S40 normal betting routine - Opposites.
So what makes a shoe Choppy? - High 1's and 2s. What beats ALL 1's and 2s? S40, even 3s if you are getting a lot of those. The FACT is, S40 CAN'T lose in a choppy shoe. End of story! 1/3rd of all shoes are Choppy. So, OK, you've got that 1/3rd beat. Next you learn OTB4L. Why? Because it beats the 1/3rd of shoes that are neither Choppy nor Streaky. They are "Neutral". Good, you've now got 2/3rds of all shoes beat.
A Repeat is when the SAME side Repeats like BB or PP.
For instance: Suppose we have a STraight run of 4 Banks: So we have 4 vertical circles on the Bank side of our score card. So, OK, the first circle is an Opposite. The other 3 are Repeats. Get it now? ALL ST runs start with an Opposite while all ZZ runs (PBPBPB or BPBPBP) START WITH A REPEAT.
BTW, I'll be teaching you how to count the length of ZZ runs - because it is extremely important to count ZZ runs CORRECTLY. The WHOLE world got it WRONG including EVERY Baccarat book and EVERY Baccarat internet site. UNTIL both The Wizard of Odds and I finally got it RIGHT at about the same time. Back then, I didn't know The Wizard and the Wizard didn't know E. Clifton Davis. BUT we BOTH knew that Opposites and Repeats occur at the SAME frequency. That is simple Math. THEREFORE, unlike what EVERY Baccarat book and site was teaching, Repeat runs and ZZ runs the same length occur at the SAME frequency - long run - not every shoe, mind you, but over MANY shoes they BOTH occur at the SAME frequency. The WHOLE world was WRONG - well except me and The Wizard.
BTW, in my kind of life I knew a LOT of GREAT Mathematicians from places like IBM for instance. I'll tell you this as an absolute fact - The Wizard is the BEST I've ever come across. Whatever he says - you can take it to the bank - literally.
If both ME and The Wizard tell you the odds of a Dragon are 1 in 45 while the payout is ONLY 40 to 1; the odds of a Panda are 1 in 35 while the payout is only 30 to 1; and worse yet, the odds of a tie are 1 in 10 while the payout is ONLY 8 to 1, you can take it to the Bank - literally! I see anybody making any of those 3 bets, I automatically KNOW that I'm playing with a rank amateur - ha, and very often it's the whole damn table. LOSERS, I'm playing with a bunch of LOSERS! But, W/O those guys, there would be no casinos.
So the day before we did the Table Take Down at Flamingo I was playing against that same dealer and she was dealing a perfect Repeat shoe. I'm winning about 75% of my bets simply betting Repeats for black chips and it drew a big crowd. So a guy standing right behind me says: "Ellis, you are winning every bet! Put up a hundred of Dragon and I'll put up a hundred with you."
The dealer, not in the best of moods, shot him a stern look: "Ellis never bets Dragon or Panda or Ties - he KNOWS better!"
Well, I'm wondering if she got in a little trouble giving away company secrets. BUT, she was exactly RIGHT!!!
There is only ONE thing that makes me nervous in a Baccarat game - When I find myself and my methods betting WITH the whole table on a bet.
Why? Because I KNOW the odds. I KNOW that the whole table is WRONG 57% of the time!
I'm always first to get my bet up. Why? Because I'm ALWAYS playing one of my systems. So I ALWAYS know my next bet - I don't have to think about it. I ALWAYS KNOW. If I'm winning it is NOT me that is winning - it is THE SYSTEM I'm playing that is WINNING! I'm merely a spectator watching THE SYSTEM do its thing!. Get it? When I take my chips I ALWAYS leave the next bet up. The worst that can happen is sometimes they pay me twice! Oh well, the dealer is entitled to a few mistakes, ha, which can go either way. I only let them know when it goes the WRONG way. So I let them know HALF the time. That's fair - don't you think? They get so used to paying me that.....
So, OK, you've got your FW Manual! What do you do FIRST? 1.) Learn the systems!
Why? Because it makes you easier to teach if you KNOW your six systems.
You will already know WHY we play S40 with high 1's and 2s.
Why we play OTB4L with high 2s and 3s.
Why we play F1 with high 3s and 4s.
Why we play TB4L with high ST and ZZ runs.
Why we always play F1 with low 1's and TB4L with low 2s.
Why we play F3 in Strong Side (SS) shoes.
It all starts making perfect common sense.
Next, there is the last 1/3rd - Streaky shoes. Our favorite!
Why? Ha, easy - Because they make us the MOST money and are the easiest to beat - TB4L, or F1 - We will teach you which is best for the shoe at hand - Your SAP count tells you. You might not know a thing about Math. No worries - Your SAP count DOES! How long does it take to learn it? Oh, maybe as long as 10 minutes. Can you count to 4? Good, you qualify.
But we have another favorite - SS or Strong Side shoes. And they are also a favorite of the casino!
Not to worry. SS shoes are very obvious! And surprisingly it is Often Player that is Strong! Either way F3 KILLS them - ha, much to the casino's shock!
Last but not least we have what we call hodge-podge shoes. These are a new shoe type never seen before and a product of so called "factory preshuffled" cards - Bastard shoes that fit none of the above normal shoe types. I had to design a whole new system to beat them - ANB. ANB loves hodge-podge! It beats the darn things. Purple Chip is our ANB expert because ANB is what got Purple Chip up to purple chips. Purple Chip bases with ANB and he's got all the ins and outs down pat. It's not that hard to learn - only has 5 rules. NOBODY else has a system for factory preshuffled cards yet that is exactly what we are up against. Only here at ECD. We DO! And I don't mind telling you - even though I designed ANB, Purple Chip has played it the most and is the best teacher for it. And I always want the BEST! So do YOU! That is why you are here! THAT is how you found us.
Well, I join and now I quit my membership. The reason is that there has not been any worthy material to download or advance material to read.
I understand the forum just open and need time to get going with topics and discussions and that is the reason why I will wait to become a member again. Why should I pay 25$ for an empty forum board with no topics and no material to download.
So for those who have not made up their mind about joining I would recommend waiting until some months pass.
His Baccarat book and Manual is right there on the private forum for you to study I have mine downloaded and it is quite good.
That is worth the monthly membership.
Its right there to see and download maybe you are not on correct page??????
Stuart
You and your friend is on the wrong forum ::)
It depends on how you see it ... a manual around 24 pages is not much for 25$ each month ... and there has not been started any advance discussion or any writing about advance play ... so I reckon it will take some time before Ellis have been writing manuals and upload files to download and make an empty forum full with candy ... so I will wait and not pay 25$ each month waiting ...
25$ become 50$ become 75$ become 100$ and you read an empty forum with not much to offer ... I rather add that money to my kid and buy some clothing or something else ...
I could join BTC again as they have top members with skills and working download section with very much good topics to learn from.
The downside is that Keith change the 50$ to 150$ as an intro fee to become a member and after that 50$ a month.
That is too expensive for my taste and round up to 600$ a year and for me is not worth it.
Cheers