What are the boundaries the community should have regarding system selling?
I think it depends what the system is purported to do.
If the seller says "I have a system that wins sometimes, is good fun to play" etc etc then that is acceptable.
If we have a seller that states "My system is the holy grail blah blah blah" then in someway that statement should be proven...not sure how though.
Too many people seem to have the Holy Grail and the new ones to roulette maybe taken in by someone.
The only other thing to do IMO is to make a sticky, stating the wariness needed regarding anything that is stated as being a Holy Grail??
No system selling.
Selling system = scam.
I've indicated elsewhere what my views are and what the boundaries should be. I'm not against system selling per se, only that the evidence of the truth of the claim should be proportional to the claim(s) made.
This is really just what blood angel is saying. The only way to prove that a system wins consistently is to have it coded and run over millions of spins. If a seller protests that this unfair or unreasonable, one has to ask - WHY????
If the seller only claims that "it has won for me over X number of spins, and I see no reason why it shouldn't do the same for you, and on that basis I'm asking for payment", then people would be less likely to scream "scam!", but systems for sale are never advertised as such (or hardly ever). At the very least, the seller should give specific details as to bankroll requirements, average number of winning sessions, maximum stake needed, average length of a profitable session, etc etc. This is almost never done, and usually requests for such information are ignored. If a seller refuses to supply this kind of info if requested, or is evasive, IMO that should be the end of the matter and the seller's posts should be removed.
Extraordinary claims (and let there be no doubt that a "Holy Grail" IS an extraordinary claim) demand extraordinary evidence.
Victor, I think that the way you're going about "hiring" your system is a model example. There is no up-front substantial payment required, and no obligation to continue paying if the system doesn't come up to expectations. You also offer a free trial. However, I appreciate that most sellers aren't in a position to offer the same kind of deal. One possible way around this is for them to take a series of challenges. The spins need to be verifiable but obviously not known in advance - I suggested a way to implement this here (link:://rouletteforum.cc/coding-for-roulette/screen-scraping/).
Hello dear Bayes, please check this: link:://rouletteforum.cc/roulettetips-cc/an-idea-for-3rd-party-automated-testing/ (link:://rouletteforum.cc/roulettetips-cc/an-idea-for-3rd-party-automated-testing/)
@all
This ultimately will end up in some sort of poll, and the options are coming from this thread.
Be certain your suggestions. From above's input, "Yes, with no claims of holy grail" (Bayes/Blood Angel) and a rotund "no" (WannaWin).
Kindly do continue the debate.
I think System Sellers are, in the whole, Fake.
If it were as good as they state, they would never sell and just play it (make money) and share it for free (Roulette is fixed odds. If 1 or 101 are on the same outcome the payout is the same)
My System, I posted for Free for all to see, does make Profit but as Ive stated it can and will break but how often is unclear. Also I had no desire to make money off Forum Members as im makin money with my System (for now)
It has to be VERY clear what the System can do and how it does it over how many spins etc...
There IS NO 100% HOLY GRAIL. As in Never fails.
Roulette has been with us for 400+ Years. Casino's wudnt have it if it were "long term" beatable
I think if you can nick 50 quid (or whatever) a day more often than lose 50 quid a day then good on ya, and thats what I do.
Quote from: WannaWin on Aug 06, 07:18 AM 2010
No system selling.
Selling system = scam.
I admit that I am a scammer. My scam is in compensating myself for being right all along. I'm letting the cat out of the bag part and parcel of those that pay me the respect I deserve for this kind of information. Those who get in this line will be compensated before the opportunity passes into history. Those that don't can congratulate themselves for being scammed with a reverse positive, their own fallacy believing they were right. In a sense I'm using your own skepticism against you as a scam of historical proportions. Perhaps this forum's archives will be around then to enjoy this paragraph at the appropriate time.
So Gizmo,
What's your position with regard to the subject of this thread. What do YOU think the "boundaries" should be?
Quote from: Bayes on Aug 06, 12:27 PM 2010
So Gizmo,
What's your position with regard to the subject of this thread. What do YOU think the "boundaries" should be?
That puts me in a kind of bad position. I'm selling personal tutoring. I'm showing the student what to look for and then how to practice it. It's up to them to get good at it. I can show them how to avoid trouble but I can't make them act cautiously. All I know is that all progressions and all rules based mechanical systems all fail. So my boundary is that if the product or service is about progressions and mechanical systems then they should be quarantined some how. I don't want to see a working system published on a forum.
My two bob's worth is this: NO. SYSTEM. SELLING. HERE.
We allow nothing where the buyer parts with an outright sum of money, backed by a so-called guarantee with as much value as a used train ticket.
Then the scammers already here on the forum will drop like fleas off a dead dog and disappear, leaving the rest of us to continue with reading and writing genuine posts that do not have an ulterior motive.
I get fed up with reading posts that are simply GROOMING the readers to eventually lead them into a sales funnel.
I can pick 'em a mile off.
Sadly, though, most newbies can't very easily, and nor can those with weak English skills. And they get conned.
[But, TRAINING or SERVICES offered an a subscription basis are fine.
After all, if they don't deliver the sub can be cancelled without the loss of a large, up-front fee.]
Hi gents,
Methods, training and services can be sold at a different website.
Eg. :. XYZ-sales.net or anything like that, and comments about the products should not be made here either. Let the new sales website be the selling place and discussion/feedback about the products/services.
This is a forum, discussion board and it shouldn't be treated as market place.
Othewise, soon or late our Systems section will stop growing and the number of members with private sections selling 'This-wins-more-than-loses' will be growing out of control.
However, tipping service should be kept so we can help Victor and perhaps sponsorship banner from a reputable casino could be considered.
Best wishes,
CashGrowth.
OK, so we all agree in:
- NO SYSTEM SELLING AT ALL.
- Endogenous software and the tipping service OK (so it pays our hosting bill honestly, and fellow readers do not hold the burden to donate month after month).
Agreed?
Can we modify our rules to reflect this now?
(And it will apply retroactively to threads selling systems, so this includes deleting the existing ones)
P.S. No member gets banned for PREVIOUSLY posting a selling thread, but from the day of the rules' modification it can be of course enforced as a violation of the rules for any new thread. Fair!
Agreed.
Yup, modify them :)
What about the Owned Sections where people are selling Systems etc ?
Hi Victor
Go ahead on my behalf mate.
Quote from: Twisteruk on Aug 09, 08:57 AM 2010
What about the Owned Sections where people are selling Systems etc ?
If there are posts selling, those posts get removed.
Quote from: VLS on Aug 09, 07:51 AM 2010
OK, so we all agree in:
- NO SYSTEM SELLING AT ALL.
- Endogenous software and the tipping service OK (so it pays our hosting bill honestly, and fellow readers do not hold the burden to donate month after month).
Agreed?
Can we modify our rules to reflect this now?
(And it will apply retroactively to threads selling systems, so this includes deleting the existing ones)
P.S. No member gets banned for PREVIOUSLY posting a selling thread, but from the day of the rules' modification it can be of course enforced as a violation of the rules for any new thread. Fair!
I may have asked this before.
But how does that apply to bots that include systems?
If the system is so great.
Then why the frak can't it be automated.?
Ohh you got to play it as you see it...
Or it can't be automated.
BALONEY....
Show me one system, one holy grail, one tipping service.
That you say you can't automate.
I will let Tiago know about it.
He can code any system.
Any progression.
Any idea.
And has done so on several occasions.
Even, I, with RSS Pro.
Am starting to learn how to code systems.
Take a look at RX that has lots of systems.
I think there can be a way by which roulette players can get genuine stuff only and a filtered one. No roulette player would mind buying a system which can earn him more. But the question is of not being scammed. I have a solution to this. Let the Victor be an unbias judge. Open a separate section for tested systems for sell only. Prior to offering for sale every system be passed through Victor for free who can evaluate and rate system as *wastage , * worth trying , *good one and *excellent . This way all players can benefit from new and unique techniques of winning.
Not a bad option considering that you are the seller.
I am opposed to any sale, but if there are any honest system vendor should at least have an opportunity to prove himself. I believe in the integrity of Mr. Victor and is also a computer developer and can run simulations and show results to the forum. We can decide on the results to buy or not.
The worst would be that since seller can never guarantee any performance, if one system fails then the blame will be assigned to who endorsed him: Mr. Victor. I do not think he wants to associate with it.
People who buy a system (including myself) we do hope that is winning and when we do not win then blame the seller. No exceptions. We are disappointed because we bought to win, not to lose. Then the money is lost in the system's price and the money lost of bankroll required for the bad system. This is double loss and exasperates.
Perhaps as Mr. Bayes says is that system vendors offer their systems as winners that mislead. Otherwise they would not have sales in the first place.
It is preferable for all parties to have a sales-free forum. Why do not make :.albalaha.com (link:://:.albalaha.com) and sell there instead of the forum?
Do not take this as personal. I have nothing against you albalaha, but against the sale of systems.
I have already been scammed in the past.
Greetings.
WannaWin
If someone scams not all can be held guilty. There are so many free systems here but even a single does not guarantee a win. While I was going for a trip to casino I consulted the entire forum systems and even veterans like Hermes but none satisfied me. Then why not let innovative techniques come to us from filtered sources atleast
Quote from: VLS on Aug 09, 09:03 AM 2010
If there are posts selling, those posts get removed.
I think this is the correct approach Victor, but already ppl are lookin to find ways around the proposal :o
oops
Quote from: VLS on Aug 09, 07:51 AM 2010
OK, so we all agree in:
- NO SYSTEM SELLING AT ALL.
- Endogenous software and the tipping service OK (so it pays our hosting bill honestly, and fellow readers do not hold the burden to donate month after month).
Agreed?
Can we modify our rules to reflect this now?
(And it will apply retroactively to threads selling systems, so this includes deleting the existing ones)
P.S. No member gets banned for PREVIOUSLY posting a selling thread, but from the day of the rules' modification it can be of course enforced as a violation of the rules for any new thread. Fair!
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!!
[And about time too.... :thumbsup:]
Quote from: esoito on Aug 10, 12:37 AM 2010
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!!
[And about time too.... :thumbsup:]
Rules have been changed to reflect this.
Report ANY thread where there's system selling or soliciting for gambling advice/consultancy.
About time.
None of the systems proved worth a dam anyway.
Kept us entertained I guess.
Hey guys,
Feel free to post the links to threads you find offering systems. I have cut the most obvious.
Also, you can also report members' signatures or any other thing found in violation to the new amendment.
Thanx Victor :)
Quote from: Twisteruk on Aug 11, 04:36 AM 2010
Thanx
It was due (link:://a.imageshack.us/img337/1102/angel252bsmiley.jpg)