As the title says, I would like JL to answer as in the past he has been a real wheel player, when he first joined the forums he was totally against RNG roulette BUT now he has been challenging an RNG, albeit an unbiased RNG, by this I mean there is no casino who owns it, so cheating will not happen.
JL, in your opinion are your results any different than your past historical results from playing at real wheel casinos? has the RNG been tougher or the same as a real wheel.
Skakus, your opinion would also be welcome as you are still doing very well against the same RNG kindly provided by Bayes.
Sidenote: I will be deleting noise posts if and when they happen. The idea of this thread is to try and get a clear picture of any differences, if there are any that is.
If the casinos are fair, it not at all any difference, pure random is just pure random.
Who do not agree can get sample spins, and try to find which is which, you will only succeed by luck, as you may make money in the game.
Hi Superman . . .
I think there is no difference between live spins and RNG.
Bayes challenged many members on the VLS forum to see if they could tell the difference and I as well as the rest failed the test.
I think numbers are numbers no matter how generated they all must follow proven mathematical theories.
For example, if you spin 5 numbers live and 5 numbers RNG, in both cases you will have 3 out of the 5 numbers in each group, ASCENDING or DECENDING. (1, 16, 4, 2, 8)--1,4,8 are Ascending and 16,4,2 are Descending.
Numbers are Numbers. They are the same.
Nick
----Except that you are watching the ball drop in the numbered pocket.....
RNG you see nothing and aren't aware where its comming from,and
it is only for these that haven't experienced real casino roulette play.
RNG is not roulette and never will be.....30 years past ppl.real players
would laugh with compare these two.....and we older still do.
Thanks Nick, I agree with your description.
Flat, as I've stated before, to you and others, I chose RNG for the speed AND as its a computer algorithm that's sending the numbers to me I know a computer has to eventually follow certain paths/sequences/routines, a real wheel does not as it is real random, generated random was told how to generate random, get it?
RNG is the challenge, the roulette table is just an ideal place to place bets, we are not, well those of us who test extensivley, which you hate as it shows holes in methods very quickly, we are not really playing roulette, we are challenging an RNG.
You've had you say Flat, again, so let's just see if we can get proof from the players that there is no noticable difference, if I sent you a couple of files of results, would you risk telling us which are real and which are RNG, you must also be able to say how/why you can tell, if you can't don't worry, nobody else can either, so please Flat put up or ......
Thanks ND but that's not of any value to the thread so I am removing it, if however you think you can spot the difference and state how/why, please say, but I doubt it as it's been tried on the old VLS as you know, an none of the pros could there either.
Those of you who are following the JL Challenge, you have seen the image Bayes gave of what the Challenge tool looks like, it's not roulette in the great scheme of things, is it? its just a number tool that has roulette bets on it, the facility to increase the bet size, against the rng, not roulette. Roulette is a game with a physical wheel, ball and bloke to chuck it, RNG is just that, a random number generator.
that is right superman i have done Bayes chalenge even when you thik that spins have to be rng they are not..you cannot tell...but still think one can beat rng easier than live roulette...i know some people will say i am idiott but i do not care.. :thumbsup:
Quotebut still think one can beat rng easier than live roulette
I tend to agree mate, thanks for the contribution.
maybe one way to find out wether there's any difference is to apply a wheel based bet selection approach on a large number of live spins and also on a large number of rng spins and then check if the results are the same or not. :-\
or to say it differently: if there's no difference between live wheels and rngs then wheel based bet selection methods are just an illusion, aren't they?
cheers
hans
Quote from: hanshuckebein on Aug 23, 05:43 PM 2012
maybe one way to find out wether there's any difference is to apply a wheel based bet selection approach on a large number of live spins and also on a large number of rng spins and then check if the results are the same or not.
or to say it differently: if there's no difference between live wheels and rngs then wheel based bet selection methods are just an illusion, aren't they?
cheers
hans
This is something I was doing before taking up the Bayes RNG challenge. It is on hold for the moment but I will get back to it. I am 20400 spins into the 30000 x 2 spin test (60000 total).
From what I can see so far there could be a small but recognizable difference between the two forms of number generators (wheel & algorithm) but it is so minimal that it would not have much use in real play. Meaning a system designed for wheel sections or the like with these slight differences in mind might end up substantially less than 1% better off when played on a real wheel as opposed to an rng. Same for rng designed systems; they would be substantially less than 1% better off if played on rng and not real wheel. This figure is rising though so I must get through the whole test to know what the % really is. I don’t think it will ever reach 1% difference though.
Short answer for me is yes, under the microscope there will be a difference between real wheel and rng, but in practical terms for real game play, no difference detectable.
As for Bayes challenge, I hope it is not a weak and easily predictable rng because I’m kicking its ar*e, and I would like to kick all of their ar*ses, wheels too, with this EC Money system.
The notable difference is as f_lat_ino says. With the wheel you can see four yourself where the next payout is as it happens while an rng could spit out anything it wants and you'd be none the wiser. It all boils down to a matter of trust.
i have checked over 32000 spins for my wheel based betting system. the bet characteristics and patterns are the same across all these: RNG, airball, real dealer. flatinos comments is only valid for the thrilling of the game as you can see the ball staring your eyes. but at the end results are same.
Great thread,
I don't know catalyst.
Superman Quote (hello :) )
"generated random was told how to generate random"
In the case of playing real RNG we cannot say that it is 100% trustworthy. Live online roulette could even be manipulated at certain points, but as JL explains you can stay under the radar.
In live play there is one element which changes routinely and is not a computer.....
Basically every time you play live casino roulette you are facing a different croupier. I think that most croupiers have not seen drastic fluctuations more then once, perhaps seen a dozen repeat 9 times, a line 5 times etc (are there any croupiers on the forum :) ) It might even be a good idea to get the croupiers stats before we play on their wheel...?
With all this I mean to indicate that all croupiers will statistically throw the same ie very very few drastic fluctuations. In RNG testing it is guaranteed that you will always see them.
Keep in mind that I am not a real player. I do not play roulette yet, just forming my game plan.
After the fact, i tend to think ,"none"...i mean, if you are given a set of past spins there's no way to tell the difference....but if in a real wheel with a dealer (not airball) i think that even with the best trained dealers you could have some temporary bias due to his/her throwing rhythm, energy level or mood, etc. These could affect the results of the strategy you're playing at that specific time.......this also could have some bearing when testing with past live dealer spins when we know nothing about the background in which these spins were recorded.
vundarosa
The result is random in both, so no difference there. But of course it is not the same in many other ways. Go to a real casino or sitting i front of a computer is not the same experience.
IMHO, the chance of having a repeaters and falling on the same side of the wheel is bigger on a live wheel due to dealer signature
RNG is the challenge, the roulette table is just an ideal place to place bets, we are not, well those of us who test extensivley, which you hate as it shows holes in methods very quickly, we are not really playing roulette, we are challenging an RNG.
--Then you should be challenging RNG vers.RNG,not real roulette numbers if you claim those
have nothing with each other,ones are random the other aren't.In other words;
ALL THE HOLES YOU FIND IN ANY METHODS ARE NOT HOLES AT ALL.
it is only brainwashing ppl.to play RNG......I SAY DO NOT AS THAT IS TOY FOR SUCKERS.
Now should I expect to be deleted as my friend Tamino who posted his views on the subject.
QuoteNow should I expect to be deleted as my friend Tamino who posted his views on the subject
Nope, but you did note that Tamino didn't complain either as his post had nothing to do with the subject, yours does.
Quoteit is only brainwashing people.to play RNG......I SAY DO NOT AS THAT IS TOY FOR SUCKERS
Thanks for that, then suckers we are. Our choice, and nobody is being brainwashed to play on RNG's.
Thanks again for your input, but if you have no input other than to tell us we are suckers then the next post may get deleted, you understand surely. We know your views on RNG are negative, that's not the issue here, the fact is, many have tested both real and computer generated numbers against every method available, they all die at some point but nobody can put a finger on what set of results (how they are formed) kill them off.
Flat obviousley enjoys the thrill of seeing a ball run around a track waiting to see where it lands, it takes about 10 -15 seconds before he knows his 'guess' was right or wrong, with RNG you get a kiss or a smack instantly, I don't need the thrill of seeing that, I want to know now.
I've yet to see any difference between them. As Vunderosa says, there may be some temporary bias due to dealer signature, but that may work in your favour as much as not, and it will all even out over time. It's in the casinos interest to keep the wheels non-biased, that's why they monitor the outcomes and run tests, and these tests are much the same as the one's which RNG's are required to pass in order to guarantee fairness. As for cheating, well that's another issue, and I agree with Skakus that it comes down to trust.
Quote from: Skakus on Aug 23, 06:33 PM 2012
As for Bayes challenge, I hope it is not a weak and easily predictable rng because I’m kicking its ar*e, and I would like to kick all of their ar*ses, wheels too, with this EC Money system.
I've just realized that there's another RNG I could have used but didn't notice it in the user guide, it's a "cryptographic safe (link:://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographically_secure_pseudorandom_number_generator)" RNG. If it's getting too easy maybe I should replace the current RNG with this one? >:D So based on your tests, do you reckon the RNG is easier to beat than actuals?
@skakus
thanks for trying to solve the problem by using actual figures. :thumbsup:
cheers
hans
Random.org shows a bitmap test to define what is random and what is not
link:://:.random.org/analysis/#visual (link:://:.random.org/analysis/#visual)
I cant get to the bottom of where one could perform this test.
Many gamblers use random numbers and RNG games online to blame their losses on. If a RNG roulette game on William Hill gave out 33,31,5,5,5,5 punters would think it was bent. Especially if that run had lost them a lot of money.
I have no doubt some dodgy casino could fix the output, but I trust PLAYTEC software to be random.
I think RNG and the wheel are the same output. I think the problem is about trusting the output.
This post is probably about Purists vs. Rest of the world
Purist = wooden wheel not RNG
Purist = Coin not random.org coin flipper app.
Purist = real Die or Dice
Why do you think the lottery is Analogue generated. Because purist view is trustworthy. If you want to be exonerated of any mistrust....then pick a real ball out of a real bag.
Unless its David Copperfield doing the picking :thumbsup:
One thing is for sure. If you win too much online you will be band. Is this a form of cheating?
In live casino play it is difficult for the casino to ban you. I have no real casino experience but heard from a friend who visited Las Vegas that you have to buy chips and register yourself otherwise you cannot play. This way the casino will always see how much you win and can thus ban you. In other words, they do not have to cheat....... JL plays on several casinos and withdraws selectively, this is the key to online roulette (if you have a winning method :) )
In a sense we are the repeaters they are looking for...
I believe that most B&M casinos don't have this registration of chips policy or am I wrong??
Quote from: amk on Aug 25, 04:55 PM 2012
In live casino play it is difficult for the casino to ban you.
Why do you think so?
Not at all. My friend no one didn't saw some one was banned from B&M excpet that one who was banned...
Be sure about that.
For the ones who won too much on regular basis and banned because of that, that is very white-collar and smooth gentleman manner. It couldnt be more then how it goes... And you get nice smile also from man who is telling you that, so what can you ask more when you found yourself in such situation? LoL
500th post! Wuhu! 8)
Regards
Drazen
Hey draze,
I think in a B&M casino they cannot see if you are winning consistently unless you have to register when you withdraw. Online they can see easily. Withdrawing small amounts and sporadically will seem less suspicious.
This aspect of the game has to be taken into consideration as well. What good is it for me to have a winning method if I get banned everywhere?
B&M I think you are safe, look at F_LAT_INO....
The only place I have heard casinos ban for winning, is on internet fora. I have never meet anyone in real life, and I know some who have won quite a lot,
The casinos I think want the players back, so they get a chance to deplete a big bankroll.
Every casino think the will win by the HE, and they do. If all win very small its not good for the business. If some win a lot, it is probably just a loan, and if not it makes other play and risk more.
Casinos need both winners and losers to make theire business.
All games has winners and losers, the casino can well predict the annual profit, it will nor be better
banning a winner.
I have heard stories of people banned for a few 1000 dollars, and I do not believe its the winning cause the ban.
Suspected money laundering are more relevant cases.
Quote from: amk on Aug 25, 06:10 PM 2012
B&M I think you are safe, look at F_LAT_INO....
Well my friend, monsieur F_LAT_INO actualy isnt safe everywhere you know... >:D
He has been banned where this game is originated from... France.. Where the most known and best casinos are. Mecca for roulette players.
To be more precise he got banned in the "Casino de Ruhl" , Nice. And as all casinos are electronicaly connected, restriction of access applied momentarely for all casinos there... Yes that sort of player our dear Flat is...
Why and how he got banned is another story.
Cheers
Drazen
Quote from: drazen_cro on Aug 25, 05:55 PM 2012
500th post! Wuhu!
Regards
Drazen
Congratulations........ :thumbsup:
This is a great post Superman. The question you pose is at the very heart of Roulette.
I do not believe in that, they read your bets, and send your number so you can lose by using your betting pattern. Random can be hard enough, and at the speed of the RNG the tings can go very fast.
Today I saw I won over 100 sessions since the last loss, a rigged RNG should of course not let that happen.
The talking of "Stay under the radar" is a myth, you allwas risk less if you stake less.
The difference with land based casinos and RNG is the speed, and the ambient.
One thing which is a drawback for landbased, is that (in some at least), you MUST tip on every winning inside. If you play EC, you get half back. This makes insaide bets on our 0 wheel, not at all better than American 00-wheel, it you do not must tip.
QuoteThis is a great post Superman. The question you pose is at the very heart of Roulette
Yes it is mate, pitty there's no proof of any reasonable differences yet, just bickering.
QuoteThe difference with land-based casinos and RNG is the speed, and the ambient
Thanks Ralph, that about sums it up.
Quote from: Bayes on Aug 24, 03:56 AM 2012I've just realized that there's another RNG I could have used but didn't notice it in the user guide, it's a "cryptographic safe" RNG. If it's getting too easy maybe I should replace the current RNG with this one? >:D
That crypto rng does look interesting but lets just continue with this one for now.
So based on your tests, do you reckon the RNG is easier to beat than actuals?
If you mean my other tests, no both are equally not easy to beat.
If you mean my RNG challenge, I really don't know because I haven't played enough with actuals to make a comparison. I have been playing with real money at the casino and haven't lost a session yet but the total bets made is way to small to know for sure. Can't knock winning though and si far it's been EC money, I mean easy money. :thumbsup:
superman....
How many spins do you recon is a valid test to run through RX wheel analysis tool so that when it says Pass or Fail....its a valid test.
QuoteHow many spins do you recon is a valid test to run through RX wheel analysis tool so that when it says Pass or Fail....its a valid test
Not sure how/what the analysis tool does, I have RX but have never used that bit, what have you run through it so far? real spins? rng spins? and what were the results mate
The methods will hold for some kind of series of outcome, and not for them you play against.
I think you can find other ways of study a method. If with sample spin, I do not think more than a few thousend.
I have seen methods passing 10000 spins, and fail the first visit in a casino.
You never know!!! :P :P
I'm coding a tool at the moment which hopefully will shed some light on the old debate about whether RNG is different from actuals. I've mentioned the Runs Test (link:://:.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/eda/section3/eda35d.htm) before, this tool will make it easy to test spins using the runs test. You can select any numbers, but the test is binary so you must have two sets of numbers from the wheel (and both sets must contain the same amount of numbers). You can test sectors as well as any bet on the layout.
[attachimg=1]
Very nice Bayes, how are examining the numbers though? or it it trade secret :twisted:
Not sure what you mean? Numbers are loaded from a file then when you've selected the two sets, the program will find the number of runs and then compute the value of Z using the formulas. (See web site linked to in previous post). For example, if you select any two sectors from the wheel, they have the same probability of hitting so they should (if results are random) give the same sequence of streaks and chops as R/B. The runs test will find out whether the sequence of spins you have loaded is random with respect to those particular sectors. Of course, RNG doesn't have sectors but you can select any group of numbers for the test.
RX runs a CHI square test which is comparing data with expected results
I ran around 10000 spins from berlin casino and same from random.org
Mabe Bayes could generate 10000 spins and I'll run it through.
[attachimg=1]
and berlin
[attachimg=1]
It probably isn't clear yet what use this tool is, but it will be very powerful. 8) I'll give full details when it's finished.
You mean RNG spins? 10,000 attached.
Turnerfeck, I also uploaded 10,300 real money no zero spins from BV,
link:://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=9089.msg76315#msg76315 (link:://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=9089.msg76315#msg76315)
please run that through too mate.
Quote from: Bayes on Aug 26, 04:06 PM 2012
You mean RNG spins? 10,000 attached.
bayes, are they from your RNG gen?
[attachimg=1]
Quote from: superman on Aug 26, 04:50 PM 2012
Turnerfeck, I also uploaded 10,300 real money no zero spins from BV,
link:://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=9089.msg76315#msg76315 (link:://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=9089.msg76315#msg76315)
please run that through too mate.
Here you go....RX thinks its random
[attachimg=1]
Hello,
I have been playing RNG till I joined this forum.
I have been working and testing on RNG for more than 5 months
and found something that could contribute you guys thought.
So, between live wheel and RNG
Firstly I will talk about Live wheel.
I have tried many things such as Kimo li's matrix, 143, R/B, and sectors etc.
The common things that I can say is that if its not in progression, it would not affect your bankroll.
So what i am doing is using it for reducing my wagering requirement.
Since it is also a gamble (which has a certain possibilities) You cannot say whether ball will drop here or there. For example, 4 reds in a row have come out, so it is time for black to come. I would say wake up. Even though there are 4 reds in a low, probability of b/r would not change. It will remain same as 48.64 (including zero). Also, the live deal would spin the ball with random force (which will affect the spin) you cannot be sure, it would drop here. That is why sometimes it shows really random sequences like bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbr etc. Im not saying, everything is wrong but, it is somewhat weird on relying on probabilities.
On the other hand, RNG. it also has probabilities to win and lose together.
Well, as I said i have been playing rng for more than 5 months, what I learnt is that system automatically changes after you earn certain amount of money. I have been using two indicators, they are working really fine in the beginning but, eventually, i lost all the money.
I have two assumptions of this.
1. System changes over time
2. System changes numbers when you are earning alot of money.
Since you cant see, it is actually based on luck. Nobody could break codes of RNG but what i can say is RNG and live wheel both are pretty much same, since we should depend on luck not the numbers.
None, results always seem the same. If anythink i'd say rng is easier to play,if you have done any studying of rng.
Said to Seagull on live wheel watch the previous ten spins for the next tenspins, nearly always get a repeat,if you cant make that pay, give up
In replying to an old topic I avoid RNG like the plague now. In my experience it seems to miss bets much more often than the real wheel. When I pick numbers I chase patterns like reverses 32,23 sequences 1,2 17,18 or 1,7 = 17 8,1 =18 so depending on the last few numbers out I know which numbers I would play.
Anyway after losing consistently online with numbers chosen on various sites I decided ok I'll play against my system to see so I'll avoid numbers I would normally choose. Not surprisingly numbers I would play came out with regularity which would have suited before. I believe when playing a RNG it can be read for patterns but only if the payout suits i.e not too high.
I reckon there is a formula on RNG which reads x+y=z if z is too high then lose.
if we talk about how rng act in casinos machines including roulettes , in my opinion rng used by online casinos so much less has to do with land based casinos rng , well first rng by itself just spits out random numbers , so in fact the whole casino software control the roulette s outcomes , of course there are limits in a program in a sense to avoid big payouts , second nowdays several rngs used by casinos , and another important thing is threre are recocnizable patterns in rng something that is not so applicable on live wheels , just think is it ever possible for a casino to build in a pure randomness; of course not , there are always reapeating patterns in a programm call random number generator .
There are absolutely no differences between RNG and the real wheel.
The only difference is our observation, that is, an hour of playin live wheel correspondes to 1 minute of playing RNG.
So guess what. When we play for an hour RNG is like we have played 26 hours copntinusly on a table of live wheel.
So, the reason that we have seen more strange outcomes at RNGthan at live wheel, is that e play RNG is likewe have played for thousands of hours in a live wheel casino.
If we could stick on a chair of a casino roulette for 2 days without going even to the toilet, we 'd see the same strange and unbelievable outcomes like RNG.
Both are under the rules of randomness. And randomness is a killer. I've seen so many strange outcomes that I'm starting to believe that life in space is based on randomness and not from God (I'm afraid to believ this but it's a kind of way to show you how unbelievable thing is randomness)
Jackpot 247.com airball 19.04.16 3 repeats
Corals RNG 2 repeats
Both waiting for the 10th non-hit. So is there any difference, No
Quote from: huskerdu on Jun 07, 04:38 AM 2015
There are absolutely no differences between RNG and the real wheel.
The only difference is our observation, that is, an hour of playin live wheel correspondes to 1 minute of playing RNG.
So guess what. When we play for an hour RNG is like we have played 26 hours copntinusly on a table of live wheel.
So, the reason that we have seen more strange outcomes at RNGthan at live wheel, is that e play RNG is likewe have played for thousands of hours in a live wheel casino.
If we could stick on a chair of a casino roulette for 2 days without going even to the toilet, we 'd see the same strange and unbelievable outcomes like RNG.
Both are under the rules of randomness. And randomness is a killer. I've seen so many strange outcomes that I'm starting to believe that life in space is based on randomness and not from God (I'm afraid to believ this but it's a kind of way to show you how unbelievable thing is randomness)
I agree with this. RNG is just too quick, that is why we think it is different. No one can compare it properly, because no one sits long enough at a live wheel.