RNG vs RW
i thought this would evoke some discussion.
Many say RW is different than RNG. "not for RNG...RW only", " this system is to be used on RW only" etc.
its a black box situation for me.
Black Box is a study idea to show that the way an input and output of a system is produced is not known.
RNG is a mysterious Black Box. It fires out random numbers. we don't know how. We don't trust it.
RW is most certainly not a black box.
its a completly visible system. we know how its selected (person throws a ball)
We know how a number is chosen (numbered pockets)
Nothing is a mystery
VB and computers are one method, but are there other tell tale signs we should be looking for?
Imagine this
RNG produces 0,2,14,33,21,27,3,0,18,0
the 3 zeros are away from the expected values. The Mean. Its just variance. Zero will hit no more than any other number after 100,000 spins.
RW produces 0,2,14,33,21,27,3,0,18,26
And yes, for the keen eyed, that's identical apart from 26. You saw it land in zero and rattled and jumped next door.
Did it try for 0?
did it miss?
is that the difference (the flaw) with a RW over RNG?....the wood, the ball, the pocket edges?
its a thought experiment.
what's your reason Why is RW different from RNG?
lets say I believe what Turner just said (I know that's hard to believe)
what if I see 8 has hit twice recently.
I bet 11,30,8,23,10
I think the random process will select 8, but I think the wheel is flawed and can try..... but miss.
I couldnt argue this with RNG. I don't know how 8 is selected.
RNG ??
It is not roulette and it is invented for suckers.
If internet wasn't invented nobody would never
hear or talk about RNG as part of the roulette game.
Today it is bait for naives,on line,bots and such.
Quote from: teo on Apr 04, 05:36 PM 2013
RNG ??
It is not roulette and it is invented for suckers.
If internet wasn't invented nobody would never
hear or talk about RNG as part of the roulette game.
Today it is bait for naives,on line,bots and such.
You perhaps missed the point of the discussion, but thanks for your input.
BTW...RNG could be random.org.
What i can think at this moment, RW comes with more pros issues than RNG in terms of visibility factor. However, we shouldn't take a peace in mind just by looking at a ball falling at our desired no#.
In the case of RNG, it's possible to play on the board only even casino management decides to take off the monitor or wheel's screen. Thus it indicates player's been deceived from figuring out the true nature of roulette :ooh: I don't think so. The logic of RNG differs from RW in so many ways . The latent upcoming numbers not easily to predict unless player's decision hasn't been firmly supported by past experiences, in hand data scenarios and other personal belief correspondents. It reminds me a old proverb, our memory is the scribe of the sole. Our intuition plays the most significant role in making decision in terms of NO# picking and investing $$$ on a particular bet selection.
I can recall some basic pros & cons for RW and RNG games.
RW Pros: We can physically see the evidence that leads to the immediate gratification.
RNG Pros: The game is always automated, there is higher degree of autonomous, concentric task involve since there's no distraction from outside environment.
RW Cons: In a busy table too much hustling, heckling with the chips. Change of dealers hand. No Precise time distribution or allocation for player's convenience.
RNG Cons : Since the game is run by robot, some unbelievable pattern of no# ( 10,7,4,1,0) makes us believe that game is flawed and cheated upon. Self-talk, personal stress can't be relaxed due to lack of association to human interactions ^-^.
Best of luck folks
Ron
Roulette is a mechanical device. Whatever is mechanical is not capable to give you real randomness of events. It will always have some kind of order. Well, not always, but most times. Or just many times.
Remember, that is what British and Polish intelligence used when cracked German Enigma. When operators used it, they did not use it really randomly, they had some patterns repeated over and over again. Because it is very hard for either human or mechanical device to be always random. And there you had both at work, just like at the roulette wheel in a casino. So they tracked those patterns thoroughly. And they were never able to crack the machine completely, they just cracked lots of info, but not all. Just like in roulette, even if u can win, it is impossible to do all the time, each time for thousands of spins. If you try u will always lose.
Computers are different story though. Computer can give u anything u want if programmed properly for that goal. So here goes an answer to your question why RNG and a physical wheel are different.
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 19, 11:01 AM 2013
Roulette is a mechanical device. Whatever is mechanical is not capable to give you real randomness of events. It will always have some kind of order. Well, not always, but most times. Or just many times.
Remember, that is what British and Polish intelligence used when cracked German Enigma. When operators used it, they did not use it really randomly, they had some patterns repeated over and over again. Because it is very hard for either human or mechanical device to be always random. And there you had both at work, just like at the roulette wheel in a casino. So they tracked those patterns thoroughly. And they were never able to crack the machine completely, they just cracked lots of info, but not all. Just like in roulette, even if You can win, it is impossible to do all the time, each time for thousands of spins. If you try u will always lose.
Computers are different story though. Computer can give u anything u want if programmed properly for that goal. So here goes an answer to your question why RNG and a physical wheel are different.
Thanks iggiv, that was very insightful thought. I will learn more about thoroughness in pattern findings. And you are definitely right about it's picking the correct number# infrequently; which's similar to enigma's code breaking. Even god throws us in the puzzle of uncertainty leading us to have faith in him. Let's have our personal characteristics intact like
Curiosity: “I wonder what would happen if...â€
Imagination: “Gee, wouldn’t it be cool if…â€
Drive: “I will not accept ‘no’. There has got to be a better way.â€
And most of all courage and persistancy to face the battle.
Best wishes' O0
Ron
Can someone observ real wheel with human croupier and write down last 20 numbers, please, no rng or air machine, thanks, and please without jokes.
here you go real spins, real person, last spin at top.
2
2
4
3
4
21
2
19
26
33
11
15
23
2
10
1
13
16
27
4
Thank you mate you done great job, it is just what I was looking for. :)
Lol no worries. Why did you want them. Theres a total of 50ish in that session
This my friend is just a half way of holy grail or better to say " holy trail " it is the real truth that past spins have influence on future spins and roulette is not random as it look like. :thumbsup:
Quote from: MumboJumbo on May 14, 07:41 AM 2015
This my friend is just a half way of holy grail or better to say " holy trail " it is the real truth that past spins have influence on future spins and roulette is not random as it look like. :thumbsup:
By all means--continue!
Quote from: TwoCatSam on May 14, 08:09 AM 2015
By all means--continue!
Me and my friends have scientific approach to roulette , but why people like you always want to destroy our task?
If you want help testing let me know. As i said ive got the numbers that follow those
MJ
So if I'm interested and ask you to continue, I'm trying to destroy the task "me and my friends" are undertaking?
How so?
Sam
Ok bckwrds give the rest numbers you have I am curios, we have something really big here, thanks mate. Also my apologize to cat of Sam if I have missunderstand something.
Thank you, MJ. No hard feelings. I'm really interested.
rest of the spins, last spin at top
5
27
33
29
0
25
9
24
28
7
17
18
3
32
11
33
9
28
33
20
Thank you.
Before my answer I want to ask you few questions?
1-Do you aware of what great job you just have done?
2-When you record numbers at the table does croupier ask you why are you doing that?
3-How many players was playing, do they ask you something, if you can describe atmosphere at that table in that moment?
1. Lol im not aware of the great job ive done
2. No they dont care, they provide ypu with cards to mark down numbers. There was one bloke wandering about for about an hour between the 4 tables recording hassel free.
3.about 5 players including myself. Atmosphere was usual table fare, bit tense bit nervous. One guy winning alot. it was mid afternoon so no one drunk and rowdy.
MJ bet you've been waiting for a reply.
Whens the unvailing of this method
I've been on pins and needles!
There are absolutely no differences between RNG and the real wheel.
The only difference is our observation, that is, an hour of playin live wheel correspondes to 1 minute of playing RNG.
So guess what. When we play for an hour RNG is like we have played 26 hours copntinusly on a table of live wheel.
So, the reason that we have seen more strange outcomes at RNGthan at live wheel, is that e play RNG is likewe have played for thousands of hours in a live wheel casino.
If we could stick on a chair of a casino roulette for 2 days without going even to the toilet, we 'd see the same strange and unbelievable outcomes like RNG.
Both are under the rules of randomness. And randomness is a killer. I've seen so many strange outcomes that I'm starting to believe that life in space is based on randomness and not from God (I'm afraid to believ this but it's a kind of way to show you how unbelievable thing is randomness)
i ve already answer on my own post , huskerdu u re wrong !
No, huskerdu is one of the few people who accepts the truth. If you play a system that has nothing to do with wheel bias, dealer signature, ball movement etc., there is no difference between live spins and rng. Both generates numbers randomly. Of course I talk about honest rng. Why is everyone losing on live wheels, if those are so much easier to win on? Why would every system fail on rng's that has nothing to do with roulette, therefore you can be sure you are not cheated?
Why would a rng let me win every single sessions, sometimes for over a month? (5c units) link:://i.imgur.com/KQBKfhU.jpg (link:://i.imgur.com/KQBKfhU.jpg)
I admit that I lost again a big chunk of my winnings since then, but again, it was my own stupidity. I played 10-15 inside numbers with progression, no stop loss, and I missed for a good 15 spins. The same could happen live as easily as it did on rng. In fact, it happened to me just a couple weeks ago while playing live roulette online with play chips. But is was live so it's ok, on rng I was cheated...
If there is no difference then why do most casino's offer you to wager a bonus on RNG but not on a live wheel?
Quote from: CocaVillaLaNoche on Jun 07, 01:23 PM 2015
If there is no difference then why do most casino's offer you to wager a bonus on RNG but not on a live wheel?
Great point :thumbsup:
Also why are a lot of online casino's RNG table limits higher than their "live" wheel table limits ?
O0
Exactly thats another reason why I don't trust RNG.
I want to see where the ball lands and not some program showing me.
ok guys ,ati, look we must distinguish 2 basic differences about rng s first online casinos [ which is just a part of software can bust u in sec!] and the other one is about auto-electronic-roulettes , as has to do with the second case that rng is beatable under specific conditions , so we can conclude that online casinos rng is in fact almost impossible to beat [ only if casino is a fair one can nbe beaten so hard to find!!] :wink:, and the second is beatable , thats the truth ,accept it or not.
The only way to check the facts is to play a "working" strategy on live and rng. Then we can compare the performance.
Bonuses are not for free. If you see the terms of using the bonuses you'll see something like: you have to play 1000 times the amount of bonus in order to get it. So it's not as free as it seems.
And of course this couldn't be happened technicaly at live casinos, for 2 reasons:
First, because for each one player who uses bonus, the dealer or someone else should keep tracking the size of bets in order to know each time what money has spend until he reaches the term of bonus and second even if casinos used so many additional stuff for this job, guess how many hours or days the player should sit continuslly on the table to use 1000 times the bonus.....!!!
If you waste money on rng just donate the money to me. So i can go play real roulette
There is no difference other than the emotional and tangible part of the game. Is there a difference at online poker, too? Absolutely not. You see more trials so things 'seem' to happen more frequently.
Whatever you play, good luck. The battle is rarely with the wheel or RNG.
Quote from: 1eleven on Jul 03, 05:46 PM 2015
There is no difference other than the emotional and tangible part of the game. Is there a difference at online poker, too? Absolutely not. You see more trials so things 'seem' to happen more frequently.
Whatever you play, good luck. The battle is rarely with the wheel or RNG.
in that case can you pls give a good answer to reply#26 & reply #27 thxs......
O0
BTW, what does "the tangible part of the game" means pls ?
Quote from: ddarko on Jul 03, 06:10 PM 2015
BTW, what does "the tangible part of the game" means pls ?
You can physically touch the chips and place them on a layout. You feel like you're a bigger part of the game.
Your mind is made up so no need to respond to 26 and 27. Look up Confirmation Bias.
Quote from: 1eleven on Jul 03, 08:22 PM 2015
You can physically touch the chips and place them on a layout. You feel like you're a bigger part of the game.
right thank you.
Your mind is made up so no need to respond to 26 and 27. Look up Confirmation Bias.
Bullet dodged, understood :thumbsup:
O0
Quote from: nottophammer on Jun 06, 08:02 AM 2015
MJ bet you've been waiting for a reply.
Whens the unvailing of this method
Last seen 19th may
Quote from: 1eleven on Jul 03, 05:46 PM 2015
There is no difference other than the emotional and tangible part of the game. Is there a difference at online poker, too? Absolutely not. You see more trials so things 'seem' to happen more frequently.
Whatever you play, good luck. The battle is rarely with the wheel or RNG.
are you referring to live online poker, wherein your opponents are your fellow players? i think theres a huge difference there.
or your referring to video poker?
Quote from: marvin on Jul 04, 01:38 AM 2015
are you referring to live online poker, wherein your opponents are your fellow players? i think theres a huge difference there.
or your referring to video poker?
Please explain the difference (while answering all of my other questions to you).
The cards fall the same way in both games via RNG.
Ah, the confirmation bias. If you expect all Elbonians to be thieves, your mind will not let you see an honest Elbonian. It's a fascinating study.
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 19, 11:01 AM 2013
Roulette is a mechanical device. Whatever is mechanical is not capable to give you real randomness of events. It will always have some kind of order. Well, not always, but most times. Or just many times.
Remember, that is what British and Polish intelligence used when cracked German Enigma. When operators used it, they did not use it really randomly, they had some patterns repeated over and over again. Because it is very hard for either human or mechanical device to be always random. And there you had both at work, just like at the roulette wheel in a casino. So they tracked those patterns thoroughly. And they were never able to crack the machine completely, they just cracked lots of info, but not all. Just like in roulette, even if u can win, it is impossible to do all the time, each time for thousands of spins. If you try u will always lose.
Computers are different story though. Computer can give u anything u want if programmed properly for that goal. So here goes an answer to your question why RNG and a physical wheel are different.
So if we arrive at the table and start to record the spins we/you will see 1 number of the 37numbers took 1 spin to come in. The next number of the 36 left could come in, in 1 spin or even take 2 spins maybe even 5 spins, but eventually it comes in.So 2 numbers have hit. So of the 35 left it takes X amount of spins for the 3rd to hit. Of the 34 left it take X amount of spins for the 4th number to be hit.
Okay lets move on lets say we've seen all 37 numbers have hit and each of the remaining numbers after the 1st number hit have taken x amount of spins to come in, lets assume all 37 were hit in 155 spins, thats 1 piece of data recorded.
Now do the same over and over again like the British and polish intelligence service did, you'd have a large data base that would give you the longest amount of spins for each of the remaing unhit numbers take to hit.
You could ask the data base what is the avg say for the19 numbers not to have hit yet, to hit.Of your thousands of recorded spins the registry might be 3,1,4,11,8,5,3,3,1,1,4,9,9,spins so the avg for this small example 4.7692, if we round up avg 5 spins, the question is how many times you can bet 19 numbers with your Bank roll, if the longest 19 numbers took to hit, is say 11 spins, its avg to come in is 5 spins, would you wait 6 spins,if the 19 have still not hit would you now bet,or wait 1 more spin to feel confident that the avg that has not changed for thousands of recorded games will make you a winner.
Oh yes i changed that sentence to red.
Its what i've done recorded how long the remaining unhit numbers take to come in, Look at Winkels GUT it uses the 37 numbers you see the numbers left to hit of those to be hit how many times do those that already hit before those to be hit,hit. Its the same for KTF ( keep the Faith) which i use with Winkels Gut.
My data is all rng, On 21/7/15 went to aspers at milton keynes one of my rare visits to a b+m used Winkels method with KTF won £26.00 for .25p units, stopped 41 spins, recorded next 7 spins waiting for the rest fo the party to finish plastering chips every where.
If you look in KTF column the worst bet is betting for the remaing 24 numbers, in the UK bookies it still would have won as can bet 3 times, same for the remaining 21 numbers possible bet in bookies is 4 spins and obliged, reference the 2 methods and your on a winner.
RNG every time
RNG for me.
Now i was not going to put this avg for Jackpot Joy till end of month, regarding betting 19 0X's (non-hit). I have the same layout for RNG, J.Joy is airball, is this considered live.
On RNG in 877 recorded games, Max i've seen the 19th 0x to hit is 11 spins (this is out of date now as not kept up to date)Its avg to come in is 1.96237, round up 2 spins.
J.Joy todate is Max 6 spins, avg to come in 1.875 spins round up 2 spins
How you'd use this info? up to you, or watch the trot :thumbsup:
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 19, 11:01 AM 2013
Roulette is a mechanical device. Whatever is mechanical is not capable to give you real randomness of events. It will always have some kind of order. Well, not always, but most times. Or just many times.
Remember, that is what British and Polish intelligence used when cracked German Enigma. When operators used it, they did not use it really randomly, they had some patterns repeated over and over again. Because it is very hard for either human or mechanical device to be always random. And there you had both at work, just like at the roulette wheel in a casino. So they tracked those patterns thoroughly. And they were never able to crack the machine completely, they just cracked lots of info, but not all. Just like in roulette, even if u can win, it is impossible to do all the time, each time for thousands of spins. If you try u will always lose.
Computers are different story though. Computer can give u anything u want if programmed properly for that goal. So here goes an answer to your question why RNG and a physical wheel are different.
Quote from: nottophammer on Jul 25, 08:10 AM 2015
So if we arrive at the table and start to record the spins we/you will see 1 number of the 37numbers took 1 spin to come in. The next number of the 36 left could come in, in 1 spin or even take 2 spins maybe even 5 spins, but eventually it comes in.So 2 numbers have hit. So of the 35 left it takes X amount of spins for the 3rd to hit. Of the 34 left it take X amount of spins for the 4th number to be hit.
Okay lets move on lets say we've seen all 37 numbers have hit and each of the remaining numbers after the 1st number hit have taken x amount of spins to come in, lets assume all 37 were hit in 155 spins, thats 1 piece of data recorded.
Now do the same over and over again like the British and polish intelligence service did, you'd have a large data base that would give you the longest amount of spins for each of the remaing unhit numbers take to hit.
You could ask the data base what is the avg say for the19 numbers not to have hit yet, to hit.Of your thousands of recorded spins the registry might be 3,1,4,11,8,5,3,3,1,1,4,9,9,spins so the avg for this small example 4.7692, if we round up avg 5 spins, the question is how many times you can bet 19 numbers with your Bank roll, if the longest 19 numbers took to hit, is say 11 spins, its avg to come in is 5 spins, would you wait 6 spins,if the 19 have still not hit would you now bet,or wait 1 more spin to feel confident that the avg that has not changed for thousands of recorded games will make you a winner.
Oh yes i changed that sentence to red.
Its what i've done recorded how long the remaining unhit numbers take to come in, Look at Winkels GUT it uses the 37 numbers you see the numbers left to hit of those to be hit how many times do those that already hit before those to be hit,hit. Its the same for KTF ( keep the Faith) which i use with Winkels Gut.
My data is all rng, On 21/7/15 went to aspers at milton keynes one of my rare visits to a b+m used Winkels method with KTF won £26.00 for .25p units, stopped 41 spins, recorded next 7 spins waiting for the rest fo the party to finish plastering chips every where.
If you look in KTF column the worst bet is betting for the remaing 24 numbers, in the UK bookies it still would have won as can bet 3 times, same for the remaining 21 numbers possible bet in bookies is 4 spins and obliged, reference the 2 methods and your on a winner.
RNG every time
Bo----ks avg wrong in the above
Okay the avg is right now
if we was to bet the avg to come in 1.3125 round up to 2 spins we would lose 2 times.
1st bet 1 *27 *13 =351 out return 13*36 = 468 in +117
2nd bet 2*27*1 = 54 out return 1*72= 72 in + 18 so + 135
L's bet 2*54 = 108 out return = 0 - 108
so 135 -108 = +27 The avg will remain around 1.3125, so could this bet keep in front, or wait for 2 losses then bet.
11
1
1
1
1
1
1
3
1
2
1
1
1
1
1
3
1
16
3
1.3125
The 16 games avg 15.5 0x's in 30 spins. So how do you deal with the repeats if you are only going to bet the 0x's
The difference between RNG and RW is the formula that is used to generate the next number.
RW is known as a linear congruential number generator and the formula is Xn+1=(aXn+b)mod37 where Xn+1 is the next number generated, modm is the maximum number of numbers, 37 in the case of roulette.
So the croupier starts his spin at the last number spun, Xn, and a is how hard or softly he spins the ball, and b is the distance or revolutions the ball travels (ie 37 numbers X 20 revolutions)
That’s how a number is generated on a roulette wheel.
On a computer there are many algorithms to generate a number.eg Mersenne twister
Essentially there is no difference between the two. However, there is software built into RNG that can allow cheating. For instance the program can look at the players balance and decide to generate another number until the player has not covered this number and therefore loses. This can all happen in the blink of an eye, the player not being able to see what happens in the background.
Anyway, thats how I see it.
Long time badger,hope all are well.
is your reply 47, to my reply 46.
Quote from: nottophammer on Jan 09, 11:07 AM 2016
The 16 games avg 15.5 0x's in 30 spins. So how do you deal with the repeats if you are only going to bet the 0x's
18 games now and still 15.5, if those 30 spins went L,W,L,W. using +1-1,starting with 27 unique, one would end with 12 unique to find after the 30 spins.
Would we not end in profit, as the bets get cheaper.
But i and you know that repeats will not be like that for 30spins, somewhere they'd be a string say 6 repeats, which might cause a loss, so how does one handle the repeats
Hi Hammer
No I was replying to Turner's post.
All the best for the new year.
Regards
Bruce
"Picture it: Sicily, 1922" (if you get that you're probably old enough to understand what I'm talking about), punting the ponies, turf flat race at wherever, 36 horses, all trained by the same trainer, all the same age, same merit rating, all running their optimal distance, cloned jockeys, same weight, no blinkers or tongue ties etc, straight sprint, all preferring good going and pen reading of 22 both sides and middle, all at 38/1, would you have punt? I hope not! That's RNG.
Same as above, but with a bend, short run in, pen reading 22 inside and 26 outside, in form horse drawn 2, 2nd in his last and 3rd in his second last, running on in both races and now 1 furlong further, top jock and trainer, drop in class, at the same odds as the other 36, would you have a punt?
Replies
5
23
25
26?
30
31?
42
45
26 gets answered at 31
Quote from: iggiv on Oct 19, 11:01 AM 2013
Roulette is a mechanical device. Whatever is mechanical is not capable to give you real randomness of events. It will always have some kind of order. Well, not always, but most times. Or just many times.
Remember, that is what British and Polish intelligence used when cracked German Enigma. When operators used it, they did not use it really randomly, they had some patterns repeated over and over again. Because it is very hard for either human or mechanical device to be always random. And there you had both at work, just like at the roulette wheel in a casino. So they tracked those patterns thoroughly. And they were never able to crack the machine completely, they just cracked lots of info, but not all. Just like in roulette, even if u can win, it is impossible to do all the time, each time for thousands of spins. If you try u will always lose.
Computers are different story though. Computer can give u anything u want if programmed properly for that goal. So here goes an answer to your question why RNG and a physical wheel are different.
Iggiv
i like the above, i like the part ( they had some patterns repeated over and over again.)(So they tracked those patterns thoroughly. And they were never able to crack the machine completely, they just cracked lots of info, but not all.) This is like the FOBT its patterns, patternes of what? Answer 0x,1x and >1x there you have it.
Now i collect games on FOBT around 879, but have neglected up dating, but this has inspired me to up date the FOBT games, the results in the FOBT data, is close to the data in jackpot247. The info from them is knowledge,it gives avg to hit,max to hit and much more, Gut,LOTT,X uniques in X spins, will all help in your decissions.
That small collected data is so valuable.
Imagine this then. Roulette has been played for what over 200 years, imagine if someone had started collecting games at the start,we'd have 200 years of game data showing what,average forwhat a non-hit takes to hit, max a non-hit could take, after 200 years of game data,one using a rolling 100 games, another for 1,000 games and why not a million, each time a new games data is added,would it change that dramatically. If all 3 sets of data said the 10th non-hit takes a max of 6 spins, its avg 2 spins,after 200 years if you was playing and see it missed for 3 spins would you not now bet
Quote from: MumboJumbo on May 14, 07:41 AM 2015
This my friend is just a half way of holy grail or better to say " holy trail " it is the real truth that past spins have influence on future spins and roulette is not random as it look like. :thumbsup:
MJ
If like me when you arrive at the wheel theres something due.
Now this is where the flack starts.
For me theres 37#'s due, i only bet the non-hit after 10 spins, so i've only the past 10 spins to trip me up,as the spins progress they have an influance,so there is some truth in what you say.
Are you going to show the remaining half
Heres two images of 1 rng and 1 live wheel,whats the difference.
I wouldn't know. Both looks good. :o
Thats my point Den they show the same, 0x's,1x's and the >1x's.
Whats a game of roulette at the end of the day, 0x's,1x's and the >1x's. Like Winkel showed theres a decision to be made, the decision is the bit to be learnt. Just like the other follower Azim, he says to all practice,practice.
Yourself and a few others are now working with the trot.
The 2 pictures are the one showing 33.50 Aspers MK live wheel the other Hills today RNG
Quote from: Turner on Apr 04, 04:57 PM 2013
RW produces 0,2,14,33,21,27,3,0,18,26
And yes, for the keen eyed, that's identical apart from 26. You saw it land in zero and rattled and jumped next door.
Did it try for 0?
did it miss?
is that the difference (the flaw) with a RW over RNG?....the wood, the ball, the pocket edges?
its a thought experiment.
what a fuc^in stupid thought.
How we change.
Quote from: huskerdu on Jun 07, 04:39 AM 2015If we could stick on a chair of a casino roulette for 2 days without going even to the toilet, we 'd see the same strange and unbelievable outcomes like RNG.
Both are under the rules of randomness. And randomness is a killer. I've seen so many strange outcomes that I'm starting to believe that life in space is based on randomness and not from God (I'm afraid to believ this but it's a kind of way to show you how unbelievable thing is randomness)
I wouldn't go that far - if that were the case, Planets would collide and IF the rotation & revolution of the Earth is "random", then the Earth will either burn-up or freeze-up! ;-)
I DO believe that online RNG is very similar to Live Wheel, that is IF it's a "fair" RNG. You can tell when an online Casino uses a fair RNG software just by playing it. Get an auto-clicker like TinyTask (:.vtaskstudio.com) or (link:://:.advanced-mouse-auto-clicker.com/auto-clicker.html) -- then go to a Casino that offers a NO sign-up Demo or Real Play with free-spins (spin without having to bet) then let the auto clicker do continuous spins, while you sit, relax and observe the numbers - then you'll start to see "patterns" of randomness, that "balances-out". Try going to :.AurumAge.com Casino, they have the BEST conditions (options) for "testing". ;-)
I know this is an old thread but it's the appropriate one, so I'll continue it.
I had The General in mind when thinking about who is most likely to know about this, but anyone is welcome to weigh in - maybe Steve?
If there really is a significant difference between RNG and spins from a wheel, how would I go about proving it statistically? How many spins would I need for a comparison? what differences should I look for? If you can, try to be specific and don't just say that for example RNG is more "random".
I suspect that there really are differences, but if so they will be subtle. BTW by RNG I mean a fair one like random.org. I'm not talking about a particular online casino where the outcomes could be fixed.
Thanks in advance.
Start with link:s://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness_tests
Theres much more to it specific to roulette. Identifying statistical anomalies is exactly what my non-computer system does, but part of my approach is cross referencing as it allows better analysis with less data. Ive been doing that for roughly 15 years. You also need to know the right variables, and it helps to understand their physical relationship to each other, so you know what to look for.
If you're working with large volume data, it's easy. Use a bitmap generator like random.org explains. But it's not practical for low volume data. Still if you have enough data for the same wheel and ball, and use the right variables, even low volume bitmaps wil show anomalies.
You're more on the right track than anyone has been in a while
You get different types of random number generators.
The following algorithms are pseudorandom number generators:
• Blum Blum Shub
• Blumâ€"Micali algorithm
• ChaCha20 â€" some implementations of Google's TLS
• Complementary-multiply-with-carry
• Counter-based random number generator (CBRNG)
• Fortuna (PRNG) â€" Yarrow refinement
• Inversive congruential generator
• ISAAC (cipher)
• KISS (algorithm)
• Lagged Fibonacci generator
• Linear congruential generator - of historical importance
• Linear feedback shift register
• Maximal periodic reciprocals
• Mersenne Twister
• Middle-square method
• MIXMAX generator
• Multiply-with-carry
• Naorâ€"Reingold pseudorandom function
• Parkâ€"Miller random number generator
• permuted congruential generator â€" small/fast; passes BigCrush with just 36 bits of state
• RC4 PRGA
• Well equidistributed long-period linear
• Wichmannâ€"Hill
• Xorshift
• Xoroshiro128+
• Yarrow
(Sorry. I copied and pasted from Wikipedia.)
A roulette wheel would fall under the type, linear congruential generator.
The generator is defined by Xn+1=(aXn+c) mod m
where X is the sequence of random values, and
mâ€" the modulus
aâ€" the "multiplier"
câ€" the "increment"
Xnâ€" the "seed" or "start value"
I am no expert in the above, but think of Xn+1 as the next random number,
Xn as the last number spun.
a as the force with which the ball is launched
Not sure about c
Modm is a mathematical function that keeps the numbers in the 0-36 range
I don’t think that the generation of a number is a problem, but the program associated with RNG can be used to cheat a roulette player, or manipulate RNG numbers to play against a player.
Thanks for the replies, guys.
Quote from: Steve on Sep 05, 08:13 AM 2018You also need to know the right variables,
Any hints on what these right variables are? I assume your system only applies to real wheels?
Maybe the OP's question doesn't mean much since there are so many kinds of RNG, but let's assume that an online casino is going to use a high quality RNG because it's in their interest for it not to be biased. To keep it concrete, suppose I provide you with 2 files containing say 5000 spins each, one RNG and one from an unbiased wheel. Would you be able to say which was which? and what would you look at in order to find out?
This just looking at the raw numbers and you don't have any other information about dealer changes, spin direction or any physics based variables.
Hopefully the Generally will turn up and give us the benefit of his experience too.
Quote from: Joe on Sep 05, 11:27 AM 2018Hopefully the Generally will turn up
Generally? ;D I mean The General.
QuoteYou're more on the right track than anyone has been in a while
Glad to hear it.
Live verses RNG
The differences will sometimes show in as little as a few thousand spins. By 50k spins most people can differentiate the two wheels a high percentage of the time when viewing graphs representing the total number of hits for each number as they lay on the wheel.
As the two data sets grow, the chi squares diverge from each other.
On the live wheel after several thousand spins the chi could be well over a hundred or even a few hundred.
On the RNG the chi may move up and down a little but it will usually remain below 50 or 60 on the high side.
Few people realize the above because very few people have ever viewed such spin counts from live wheels.
What does that mean exactly ?
I mean I know it proves RNG is different than real life but what does what you say mean exactly
In slang, using incorrect terms and an oxymoron...
Live wheels aren't random. All wheels are biased to some degree.
And RNG wheels are toooo random.
Most system players have no idea as to much difference exists because...
1. System players often have a very short attention span and are distracted by shiny objects.
2. None of them have ever tracked a live wheel to a statistically relevant number of spins and live spin data just isn't readily available.
3. They usually have no comprehension as to what's statistically relevant and what's not.
Quote from: The General on Sep 05, 06:19 PM 2018
1. System players often have a very short attention span and are distracted by shiny objects.
2. None of them have ever tracked a live wheel to a statistically relevant number of spins and live spin data just isn't readily available.
3. They usually have no comprehension as to what's statistically relevant and what's not.
your points here, labeled 1, 2, and 3 did not help to answer my question at all and is mainly irrelevant to this thread
moving on now, so live wheels all have some sort of bias due to being man made where as RNG has different patterns because its "too" random
are the RNGs rigged?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Sep 05, 06:48 PM 2018
your points here, labeled 1, 2, and 3 did not help to answer my question at all and is mainly irrelevant to this thread
moving on now, so live wheels all have some sort of bias due to being man made where as RNG has different patterns because its "too" random
are the RNGs rigged?
Ghost,
You shouldn't worry whether it is or is not rigged because for you it wouldn't matter.
so using the chi square you find that RNG behaves different from live wheels
which I have been saying for years....your data shows it
this is great information
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Sep 05, 07:12 PM 2018
so using the chi square you find that RNG behaves different from live wheels
which I have been saying for years....your data shows it
this is great information
Ghost,
How do you feel that it will in any way benefit you???
Be careful with chi square. You'll put your eye out if you're not careful.
Quote from: Joe on Sep 05, 11:27 AM 2018Any hints on what these right variables are?
Example: You might consider one half of the wheel wins above norm. While this can happen by coincidence with RNG, its more likely to occur with a real wheel if there's a legitimate bias. There are lots of other things you can look at that have nothing to do with bias, and what you'll find is some things are much more likely to happen on real wheels. You can never be 100% certain, although you don't need to be.
Quote from: Joe on Sep 05, 11:27 AM 2018To keep it concrete, suppose I provide you with 2 files containing say 5000 spins each, one RNG and one from an unbiased wheel. Would you be able to say which was which?
Yes probably. But to rely on only spins, you need lots of them. And they need to be from the same wheel and same ball type, or it gets more complicated. To make it practical, you need much fewer spins (hundreds), and more surrounding data. If you don't know how to correlate the data and what to look for, you wont find it unless you run huge tests with permutations (like picking an electronic lock), which takes a long time. My earlier software did billions of calculations for around 300 spins which took a long time. But you can take shortcuts if you model the relationships of variables, the physics etc.
Quote from: Joe on Sep 05, 11:27 AM 2018This just looking at the raw numbers and you don't have any other information about dealer changes, spin direction or any physics based variables.
Those are the obvious variables. There are many more but if you include too many, you may increase accuracy but at the cost of a lot more analysis needed.
Thanks Steve & General. I have a large file of spins all from the same table so I will do some analysis and report back soon with my results. I will use spins from random.org for comparison.
Quote from: The General on Sep 05, 06:19 PM 2018Live wheels aren't random. All wheels are biased to some degree.
Biased to a degree that you can take advantage but not so biased that the casino notices?
BTW, was this you, or perhaps Steve?
QuoteIn the early 90s, Hobart casino was hit by biased wheel players. The result: roulette virtually closed down for a time, with a $10 MAXIMUM bet on a number, believe it or not. All wheels in Hobart and Launceston were soon replaced with Huxley Mk. 6 adjustable wheels.
link:://glind.customer.netspace.net.au/gambling/biased.html (link:://glind.customer.netspace.net.au/gambling/biased.html)
Quote from: Joe on Sep 06, 11:52 AM 2018
Biased to a degree that you can take advantage but not so biased that the casino notices?
BTW, was this you, or perhaps Steve?
link:://glind.customer.netspace.net.au/gambling/biased.html (link:://glind.customer.netspace.net.au/gambling/biased.html)
Most are not biased enough, but some are biased enough to get a good edge.
Some casinos notice, some don't. Contrary to popular believe casinos don't remove wheels just because they're biased. Wheels are expensive, and biased wheels usually make just as much as the more random wheels.
Most people on this board wouldn't be able to beat a biased wheel if you told them the wheel was biased. If a wheel is very biased, it's sometimes just moved around the floor more frequently or kept in the "evening and weekend" positions. Periodically rotating wheels around the casinos floor is a common practice and when it happens the data download boards usually stay in position even though the wheels have been moved. This corrupts the data download because it mixes the data with spins from the newest wheel.
If you're planning on using data downloads from Roulette Extreme you should know that the data is also corrupt. For example, the Wiesbaden table one data is a mix of several different wheels over a period of time. You won't have any way of knowing when the wheels were changed by just looking at the data.
I may post a biased wheel number stream in segments on the forum for people to try and play, just so they can see how well their systems perform.
Joe one is live wheel the other is Random.org
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/06/source14a98.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tbtfr)
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/06/sourcea7e7a.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tbFGx)
Who cares which type
Notto is a good example of someone that wouldn't be able to beat a biased wheel even if you told him that it was biased. The reason is because his bet selection is at best just a guess.
i dunno how much time and efforts does notto put on his sheets but for sure his sheets as well as his systems is far away from the sh$t.
:thumbsup: keep it going, Notto!
beat him, beat him !
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Sep 06, 02:38 PM 2018
i dunno how much time and efforts does notto put on his sheets but for sure his sheets as well as his systems is far away from the sh$t.
:thumbsup: keep it going, Notto!
beat him, beat him !
Perhaps there's an English translation to what you've written? ::)
go back to school and learn, i know it might be tough for you but at least try !
i guess you speak only one language, that's too little... try to upgrade your brain
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/06/source70e83.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tbzns)
Sorry, but I don't speak ghetto ::)
instead of talking bad about notto, why don't you show us your graphs ?
let your graphs speak for you.. go ahead, show us!
Quote from: Roulettebeater on Sep 06, 03:36 PM 2018
instead of talking bad about notto, why don't you show us your graphs ?
let your graphs speak for you.. go ahead, show us!
(link:s://:.communitywestfoundation.org/hs-fs/hub/211014/file-64304698-jpg/images/graph_with_arrow_moving_upwards.jpg)
Ok, here you go. As you know, graphs are prove that every system works. ::)
Translation for you...
Here be da shit fool. it work dam da hell gud mak da graph dam crazy yo!
Quote from: The General on Sep 06, 03:54 PM 2018
(link:s://:.communitywestfoundation.org/hs-fs/hub/211014/file-64304698-jpg/images/graph_with_arrow_moving_upwards.jpg)
Ok, here you go. As you know, graphs are prove that every system works. ::)
Translation for you...
Here be da shit fool. it work dam da hell gud mak da graph dam crazy yo!
Do you realise you follow the same boring process every time.
Aloof dismissal, if that doesnt work, personal insult, usually about typos and if that doesnt work, an animated gif of Mike Ehrmantraut shaking his head.
That gif makes no sense as Mike is telling the goons not to draw their guns on Walt when he is demanding they say his name....Heisenberg
What is it you actually contribute apart from tripe and trolling?
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/06/source05afb.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/td2Hy)
Here are 23 quotes to live your life by.
link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq4ibCV9Xes
Quote from: The General on Sep 05, 07:16 PM 2018
Ghost,
How do you feel that it will in any way benefit you???
Be careful with chi square. You'll put your eye out if you're not careful.
Well you asked me a question
you said "how do you feel that it will in any way benefit you?"
that question is an assumption. you are assuming i am insinuating it may benefit me...I never said that
for years I have been saying that RNG is not "roulette" and that it behaves differently
your "chi" test proves that
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Sep 06, 07:39 PM 2018
Well you asked me a question
you said "how do you feel that it will in any way benefit you?"
that question is an assumption. you are assuming i am insinuating it may benefit me...I never said that
for years I have been saying that RNG is not "roulette" and that it behaves differently
your "chi" test proves that
My point partly is that you don't play enough spins over time for it to even matter. Any win that you have is going to be related to shear luck over such a short term playing horizon. It's not an insult, it's just the way it is.
Any win that you have is going to be related to shear luck over such a short term playing horizon. It's not an insult, it's just the way it is.
i bet some people are very lucky :'(
Quote from: Turner on Sep 06, 06:22 PM 2018
Do you realise you follow the same boring process every time.
Aloof dismissal, if that doesnt work, personal insult, usually about typos and if that doesnt work, an animated gif of Mike Ehrmantraut shaking his head.
That gif makes no sense as Mike is telling the goons not to draw their guns on Walt when he is demanding they say his name....Heisenberg
What is it you actually contribute apart from tripe and trolling?
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/06/source05afb.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/td2Hy)
The General is here for the same reasons we all are, perhaps a way to improve upon what we already know, in his case he may know a lot about AP, but maybe a tweak here or there that someone posts might improve things. He just tends to look down on the rest of us from his illusions of grandeur tower with derision and contempt, but he still reads every post looking for information he can use. All this under the guise that he is helping us all with his knowledge.
Its similar to the snobbish wine zealots that pay dearly for a bottle of wine, but in a blind taste test can't tell the difference between an $800 bottle and $20 bottle. They have attitude so they insist the $800 bottle has to be better because its more expensive.
Quote from: nottophammer on Sep 06, 01:09 PM 2018Joe one is live wheel the other is Random.org Who cares which type
notto, it's better to use a proper statistical test like Chi-Square because they are designed specifically to be sensitive to differences. You can easily do it in excel. See here for details :
link:://mathproblems.info/gam470/games/chi-sqr/chi-squared-test.html (link:://mathproblems.info/gam470/games/chi-sqr/chi-squared-test.html)
My first test of 50,000 spins did show some slight "bias" for real spins, but was not really significant. The RNG chi value was 35.7 (p-value 0.482), almost right on expectation. The real spins chi value was 43.4 (p-value 0.185).
Anyway, I'll do some more testing.
Quote from: The General on Sep 06, 12:57 PM 2018If you're planning on using data downloads from Roulette Extreme you should know that the data is also corrupt. For example, the Wiesbaden table one data is a mix of several different wheels over a period of time. You won't have any way of knowing when the wheels were changed by just looking at the data.
Good point, but I don't use RX and got the spins from this site. There are 1 million spins and they are supposed to be from the same table.
QuoteI may post a biased wheel number stream in segments on the forum for people to try and play, just so they can see how well their systems perform.
Great idea! Please do it.
Well I got the chi-square for all 1 million spins. Result? no difference really, certainly nothing significant statistically. ^-^
There was one number in the real spins file which hit 27, 504 times (expectation is 27, 027 times). This is a standard deviation of nearly 3, but that's nothing to get excited about.
In my experience it seems that numbers on a real wheel can stay hotter or colder for longer, but that might be just my perception, I don't have any hard data to back up the theory, at least not yet.
Joe you've done your million spins and say no difference really.
So you're at the B+M, lets say 60 seconds a spin and you'll be there 2 hours, so 120 spins.
What did you learn from the 1 million spins to help you win in the 120 spins.
This is why you want to see what happens in 60 spins, not the million spins.
Good luck, your buddy general will show you the way
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/07/source.gif) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tdXSB)
Joe 185 real spins posted on here.
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/07/source.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tdau9)
Joe the Trot of the 37, from spin 11
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/09/07/source568dd.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/tdb8Z)
I'll skip the 1 million spins
Joe,
When using live spin data make sure you keep spin directions segregated.
Also, I wasn't aware that there was any source of one million spins on this website. Where did you find them?
Notto,
I'm not sure as to why you post examples of so few spins. What's the purpose?
(link:s://i.pinimg.com/originals/d9/85/d9/d985d92bcf7c36163908e2e012b070e3.gif)
Is it the trot? ::)
Quote from: The General on Sep 07, 01:07 PM 2018Joe, When using live spin data make sure you keep spin directions segregated. Also, I wasn't aware that there was any source of one million spins on this website. Where did you find them?
I don't have the information regarding spin direction, just the spins. I got them from this thread :
link:s://:.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=7339.0
There's a link to the original source further down the thread. So you're saying that just the spins themselves can't be distinguished from RNG, you need further information? This seems to contradict what you were saying earlier, unless I misunderstood. ;-)
Quote from: nottophammer on Sep 07, 12:48 PM 2018What did you learn from the 1 million spins to help you win in the 120 spins. This is why you want to see what happens in 60 spins, not the million spins.
notto, trying to find a difference between RNG and real spins in 60 spins or 185 spins is pointless. I'm interested in finding out whether there's a difference, whatever it takes. BTW, what is the "Trot"? I know what the trots is but I don't think that's what you mean. ;-)
Quotedon't have the information regarding spin direction, just the spins. I got them from this thread :
link:s://:.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=7339.0
Joe,
That data is a blend of spins from several wheels over an extended period of time. It's the German wheel data, it's the same data that you will find in Roulette Extreme. Unfortunately that data is going to be washed out.
I have spin data that I can share with you if you really want to see comparisons. In the data file it will even show dates and dealers. I already have the data posted in standard deviation charts, correlation calculations, chi square, etc.
QuoteSo you're saying that just the spins themselves can't be distinguished from RNG, you need further information?
To what post are you referring?? In small samples of course not. In large samples, yes I can tell a difference most of the time.
Are you in the US or the UK?
Quote from: The General on Sep 07, 03:14 PM 2018I have spin data that I can share with you if you really want to see comparisons.
That would be cool, thanks. I'm in the UK.
QuoteWhen using live spin data make sure you keep spin directions segregated.
spin direction mkes no freaking impact :thumbsup:
Quote from: maestro on Sep 08, 11:19 AM 2018
spin direction mkes no freaking impact :thumbsup:
Oh really? Have any data to back that up?
So General, when are you going to upload the spin data?
QuoteOh really? Have any data to back that up?
yep
Quote from: The General on Sep 05, 02:50 PM 2018As the two data sets grow, the chi squares diverge from each other. On the live wheel after several thousand spins the chi could be well over a hundred or even a few hundred. On the RNG the chi may move up and down a little but it will usually remain below 50 or 60 on the high side.
(link:s://s22.postimg.cc/4syztfgj5/shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif)
(link:s://thumbs.gfycat.com/ObviousBlandJoey-small.gif)
Joe,
You shouldn't worry about such things if you're playing the trot.
General, I've acquired a large number of spins from several tables belonging to a casino chain here (I know someone who works for them) and I haven't been able to find any significant differences between those spins and RNG. Just sayin'. ;-)
Maybe you go to some dives where the wheels are biased, but you said there's a difference even between "fair" wheels and RNG. I'm not worried, but I just don't believe you. No need to worry about that either. 8)
Quote from: Joe on Sep 11, 01:52 PM 2018
General, I've acquired a large number of spins from several tables belonging to a casino chain here (I know someone who works for them) and I haven't been able to find any significant differences between those spins and RNG. Just sayin'. ;-)
Maybe you go to some dives where the wheels are biased, but you said there's a difference even between "fair" wheels and RNG. I'm not worried, but I just don't believe you. No need to worry about that either. 8)
In Canada, some provincial governments run their own online gaming sites. The government operates them. I doubt they would run a fixed online game as they are the government and are audited independently of themselves as they should be, otherwise it would be an uproar that any government would not want to be a part of. RNG stands for random number generator. The original wheel that has been credited to Pascal was created as a random number generator. Those that say they are different can only win if a wheel is broken, which doesn't happen at all anymore. They use computers which if not illegal are seriously frowned upon and visual ballistics which has merit as long as you can place your bets down while the ball spins. More and more places are asking for bets to be placed prior to the spin so soon VB will be a thing of the past too. All old school ways are becoming useless like their proponents.
Nimo, according to the General all online gaming sites are crooked and the people who use them are problem gamblers. ::) This is just nonsense. There's no doubt it's easier for an OC to cheat with an RNG but any doing so just wouldn't survive in such a competitive industry. They already have the edge anyway and most players will lose over time; why jeopardize their licence by cheating? As long as you do your due diligence I don't believe there's anything to worry about with the vast majority of casinos. I'm betting the General has never even played online; why would he when he looks for biased wheels? And yet he pretends to be an expert on all such matters.
Joe i use FOBT's no problem, as Winkel said in GUT as long as LOTT is there, its then a fair RNG