HOLY GRAIL, HOLY GRAIL, HOLY GRAIL!!!!
Every single person who visits this site does so in the hope that they will find on here some gem of information which will help them to beat roulette. and not just beat once, but consistantly over and over again.. Some miracle system which will make sure they never lose again. Or just some aspect which when considered will eliminate losses... Either way, Everyone is searching for the proverbial "Holy Grail" of Roulette so that they can WIN.
NOBODY COMES HERE JUST TO LOOK. WE ARE ALL TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO BE BETTER AT THE GAME, RIGHT??
So what happens if somebody actually does find this elusive "Holy Grail"? Would this be good or bad?
There are many things to consider here, and as someone to whom finding the HG has become a full obsession, i wonder to myself what would happen if i actually found the answer?
What would it really mean? What would the consequences be of it being discovered?
i personally believe that if someone were to find the HG then there is a possibility of life as we all know it significantly changing....
id like to proposed a timeline and ask for feedback and further discussion on the topic as a whole...
So..
1. Holy Grail Found.. The discovery provides insights to solutions for problems in Chaos theory, and computational complixity.
2. Therefore the discoverer has an obligation, duty to release the matierial for the benefit of alll.
3. The discoverer would also want the prestige and fame that comes with the discovery..
4. The Grail is released. Everybody knows the secret.
5. The casinos have to change the game or abolish it.
6. Either way, change or abolishment will lead to financial loss for the casinos.
7. Statistically, roulette counts toward a significant percentage of the gambling industrys revenue.. With the profits now non existant or drastically reduced, this must have a knock on effect for local, and national economies with regards to taxes paid by casinos, job and income losses, etc....
8. What further impacts would it have?
Given the the above, would it not be right to say that actually the HOLY GRAIL for which we seek, is actually a PANDORAS BOX of great destruction?
Alternantively the finder of the grail could just keep it a secret and get filthy rich while not giving a damn about what its meaning could mean for the world?
I am really interested to hear any thoughts any of you may have on the topic..
Please, please please, lets not turn this into a discussion of whether the HG exists or not? For the purposes of this discussion, lets just assume that it does...
Ok, I'll bite
First off the Holy Grail means different things to different people.
Me personally, I had an even-chance go to 18 consecutive blacks. The world record I understand is 36 of a consecutive color so we could wait for 35 consecutive even chances (which may take a lifetime).
There's John Legend's version--(paraphrase) try to find something that is hard for random.
And thus you have his "Pattern Breaker-Filler, etc.
Then there's the Advantage Play crowd who looks for a bias in the wheel and monitors drop points and rotor speed.
There is the numerology crowd who believes in reverse numbers, etc.
Jack Kennedy and the wheel neighbor color strategy.
Winkel and his GUT
Steve Morgan's six of the same dozen bet the other two strategy.
Mr J.s 2-4 number max strategies (and the fabled $19,000 he made in one session)
*As you can see, it's different things to different people.
OK.. Thanks for being the first to post on this.. I agree. The term Holy Grail is thrown about so much that many people abuse it for the glory of claiming they have found "THE HOLY GRAIL"..
I believe that there are some great systems out there that win short and long term, but there are none with the depth of consistancy to make all roulette players suddenly adopt it and forsake all others... With the greatest of respect for all those system designers you mention and all you didnt, ANY SYSTEM THAT IS IN THE PACK AND NOT AHEAD OF IT IS NOT THE HOLY GRAIL...
However, it is my firm belief that there is ONE SINGLE ABSOLUTE HOLY GRAIL.
A method that it is absolutely unbeatable, even if the casino tried to cheat....
A way soo simple to play that even a child could do it....
A TRUE SOLUTION, which allows anyone to be a master a roulette...
That would be, THE REAL HOLY GRAIL!!
SO THE QUESTION IS, IF SUCH A THING EXISTED AND WAS MADE PUBLIC WHAT WOULD HAPPEN...?
WOULD THINGS PLAY OUT SIMILARLY TO MY TIMELINE ABOVE? OR DIFFERENTLY?
Apologies for the capitals. I hit caps and just went for it... :xd:
Quote from: 36kid on Jul 05, 05:29 AM 2014
1. Holy Grail Found.. The discovery provides insights to solutions for problems in Chaos theory, and computational complixity.
If it's "A way soo simple to play that even a child could do it...." why would a computer be needed ?
2. Therefore the discoverer has an obligation, duty to release the matierial for the benefit of alll.
No, no they don't....
3. The discoverer would also want the prestige and fame that comes with the discovery..
Not if he/she is smart they wouldn't, not everyone is looking for those 15 mins of fame
4. The Grail is released. Everybody knows the secret.
DON'T DO THAT !!!!!!
5. The casinos have to change the game or abolish it.
Not if you won small amounts regularly, and say lost a bit on purpose from time to time ?
6. Either way, change or abolishment will lead to financial loss for the casinos.
They would struggle to change the game if the HG was an EC bet would they not ?
7. Statistically, roulette counts toward a significant percentage of the gambling industrys revenue.. With the profits now non existant or drastically reduced, this must have a knock on effect for local, and national economies with regards to taxes paid by casinos, job and income losses, etc....
Odds on the average punter would still get drunk & bet what's hot or birthdays/anniversary's
8. What further impacts would it have?
It would have little to no impact if the opposite of your 8 points above were done. Get a small team together, say a dozen or so. Move around the world winning small but consistent amounts trying to stay under the radar. All give say 15% of your winnings to charity. You & your friends get rich AND make the world a better place !!!!
There can never be a holy grail , any one who thinks there may be one is in for a disappointment , take away the 0 's and it would still be impossible to find a holy grail ,add the 0's and it becomes a no brainer - it's totally , completely impossible. To beat the wheel you need measuring devices like computers to compute likely landing area of ball. The (0's 00) usa roulette is even harder to beat. Any holy grail even if it was possible would be complex and a massive bankroll would be needed.
I have a system that comes out a good winner after 20,000 placed bets. But after that it tanked, maybe after some adjustments it can be a holy grail?
No, that was probably just luck. Last week I ran a simulation of a simple system, with a 10000 units starting roll, and it survived 870k spins, then it froze. That doesn't mean that's a winning system. It just survived, didn't make good profit, and it would probably bust most of the times if I ran the simulation again.
On topic, it has been discussed before, and almost everyone agreed that they would not share the holy grail. I know I wouldn't, maybe after I won enough money (millions), and could invest in other stuff.
Card counting was the holy grail for blackjack,
If you want to know what would happen if someone published a roulette holy grail,
look no further than blackjack. I would say that Thorpe made a lot off money for himself
by publishing the grail, but he spoiled it for the people who were using card counting to
make a living.
Quote from: ddarko on Jul 06, 04:27 AM 2014
1. Holy Grail Found.. The discovery provides insights to solutions for problems in Chaos theory, and computational complixity.
If it's "A way soo simple to play that even a child could do it...." why would a computer be needed ?
2. Therefore the discoverer has an obligation, duty to release the matierial for the benefit of alll.
No, no they don't....
3. The discoverer would also want the prestige and fame that comes with the discovery..
Not if he/she is smart they wouldn't, not everyone is looking for those 15 mins of fame
4. The Grail is released. Everybody knows the secret.
DON'T DO THAT !!!!!!
5. The casinos have to change the game or abolish it.
Not if you won small amounts regularly, and say lost a bit on purpose from time to time ?
6. Either way, change or abolishment will lead to financial loss for the casinos.
They would struggle to change the game if the HG was an EC bet would they not ?
7. Statistically, roulette counts toward a significant percentage of the gambling industrys revenue.. With the profits now non existant or drastically reduced, this must have a knock on effect for local, and national economies with regards to taxes paid by casinos, job and income losses, etc....
Odds on the average punter would still get drunk & bet what's hot or birthdays/anniversary's
8. What further impacts would it have?
It would have little to no impact if the opposite of your 8 points above were done. Get a small team together, say a dozen or so. Move around the world winning small but consistent amounts trying to stay under the radar. All give say 15% of your winnings to charity. You & your friends get rich AND make the world a better place !!!!
Definately the best response so far...
1. a system that can beat roulette consistantly would have to defy the laws of probability and also physics... To me, that would be a great discovery. Surely new insights into mathematics and science could be achieved from a true holy grail which could have some applications in the real world?
i didnt mean that youd need a computer to use it. Roulette is basically a random deterministic system where consistantly winning is said to be impossible. this makes it an NP hard problem right? so by showing an algorithm that could beat roulette, you would also be on the road to finding a solution to P=NP. Given what could come of a solution to that problem, the decision to share becomes one based on desire for personal wealth vs wealth and upliftment of all humanity.
Which would you choose..?
Consider the following....
To beat roulette on an expected winnings basis would mean one of the following:
1.
A math error somehow slipped past all the casino analysts, etc., very unlikely at this point, no bearing on P=NP.
2.
Probability theory is flawed, also unlikely and difficult to imagine, but something like that could call anything we've achieved by deductive logic into question, mabe even moving problems that had been proven P into NP and vice versa or rendering the definitions meaningless, etc.
3.
The probabilities of roulette outcomes are computed based on more relevant knowledge than is currently modeled. E.g., maybe a machine could analyze the casino employee's brain waves before spinning the wheel and determine some outcomes are more likely than others. This would require some advances in chaos theory which conceivably would render NP problems less useful even in the case that P=NP is false, but I don't see a clear reason to expect such techniques to solve P=NP.
Still, more understanding generally means more chance to stumble upon something useful in solving any open problem of mathematics.4.
Time travel. Naturally if you can glimpse the future and see outcomes you can win roulette. In a sense, you could also consider all computational problems solveable in constant time from the point of view of a person that can start an algorithm of any complexity and see the output from the distant future at the time of his choosing. There would still be an open mathematical question of P=NP from the frame of reference of the machine doing the computation, and there would still be practical value in computing with less energy requirements and machine maintenance over eons of future time. If P=NP ever does get solved then I guess we get to see the solution very shortly after discovering time travel.
to adress your other points..
2. given the above id say there is an obligation. Could you imagine what our world would be like if Einstien didnt share E=mc2?
3. again given the above, i think that the discoverer of the answer to a 300 yr old problem goes down immortalised in history. i think 15 mins would be more like 15 decades...
4. i wont... ;) ;)
#5,6,7 lead on from the assumtion that 4 was done.... 5 obviously a person keeping the HG to themselves would try to stay as low key as possible so, this makes sense, but given #4 this would not happen. so if they couldnt change the game, theyd have to get rid of it in order to not lose money... The average punter is no longer an average punter with access to the HG..
Id say that a true HG would be catastrophic for the game if everybody knew about it.
What you say at point 8 is spot on That would be the best way to exploit a HG for personal gain and in turn help others.
Now if only i could get my hands on the damn thing everything would be great!! O0
"Id say that a true HG would be catastrophic for the game if everybody knew about it" >>> I dont care if MANY roulette players heard of or witnessed a great method, over and over again........most, still would not play it even if it was a "HG". (imo).
Ken
Seriously...? So youre trying to say that the majority of people who play roulette assumedly with the view to make money, when given a method that will guarantee thier success in that endevour would turn thier back on it? What are you basing your statement on? If youve been following the thread you would know that im not talking about some run of the mill HG, im talking about a hypothetical undisputed and unbeatable HOLY GRAIL. Are you telling me the majority (or as you say most) would not utilise it?
Let me give you two scenarios that may make you rethink your statement...
#1)If i gave you a ATM card and told you that all the money connected to the account was yours and further assured you that you wouldnt be commiting a crime to take as much as you want. What would you do? Say NO?
#2) You get to the final round of a gameshow and you are guaranteed to take home an amount of cash.
There are 2 doors for you to choose from. And you are told exactly what is behind each one. You must choose a door and then you will have 30 seconds to "collect" as much cash from the prize pool as you can. Behind both doors is an equal amount of money, EXCEPT, Behind door #A there is $1M in loose coins scattered all over the place. Behind door #B the $1M is neatly packed into briefcases...
Which do you choose? Door #A?
Unfortunately my friend if my belief in human nature is even a little accurate 50%+ of people would take the card or go through door B.
Only someone who did not want the success would choose the opposite. Those types of people by nature are either fearful, extremely doubting or just plain ignorant to the benefit they could gain by taking the easy road.
These are not the type of people i believe we game players are. If we are not playing to win then what the hell are we playing for?
To lose all our money to a faceless entity in the name of entertainment?
No my friend, We all want to be winners!!!
I know in my heart that if someone shows me a better way to do something than what i currently know and taking up this new way will lead to greater benefits for me in whatever sphere of life, i will try to adapt.
Its called Human Nature, Survival of the fittest and all that....
Or am i just on a completely different planet....?
Mr. J makes a great point.
Let's say you have $10,000 free and clear (The Grail). How
many people would trade it for "what's behind door number one"?
(Door number one may have a million dollars behind it or it could just be a penny)
"im talking about a hypothetical undisputed and unbeatable HOLY GRAIL. Are you telling me the majority (or as you say most) would not utilise it?" >>> Correct and I suppose thats a good thing if we are talking about casinos not closing their doors because of it.
Ken
Quote from: Proofreaders2000 on Jul 06, 04:38 PM 2014
Mr. J makes a great point.
Let's say you have $10,000 free and clear (The Grail). How
many people would trade it for "what's behind door number one"?
(Door number one may have a million dollars behind it or it could just be a penny)
Sorry, i dont get the relevance of what youre saying.. Obviously No one would do that! But if you want to use that as a parallel example in response to what i said about the doors then we are more or less saying the same thing:
Behind both doors is the exact same thing but in different forms.
1 million pound coins behind Door A
1 million in briefcases behind Door B
30 seconds to grab as much from behind the door and bring it back to the "keep zone"....
you gonna keep running back and forth scooping up coins off the floor or just go in the other one and chuck the briefcases out...?
You dont know how many of the million coins you could scoop up in 30 second but you damn well know that if theres 8 briefcases you will get close to or all of that money.. Only the recklessly brave or the recklessly foolish (depending on how you look at it) would gamble the $10,000 for whats behind a door they cant see behind.
But the essence of what we are both saying is that in an instance where a person is guaranteed too make a profit, only a fool would say no ill take chances and keep opening doors.... Right
Which then makes what MrJ said utter nonsense.
Quote from: MrJ on Jul 06, 07:21 PM 2014
"im talking about a hypothetical undisputed and unbeatable HOLY GRAIL. Are you telling me the majority (or as you say most) would not utilise it?" >>> Correct and I suppose thats a good thing if we are talking about casinos not closing their doors because of it.
Sorry mate but youre here on a roulette site where everybody is trying to find a better or the best way to win at the game of roulette, im sure that youve tried many different ways to play in your time as a player or "Rouletteer" ( as i like to call myself ::) ) each time moving on to another way and adapting things to suit your style of play...
Unless of course you are here for other reasons... I can only speculate and assume the intentions of others but
you may be one of the ones who would choose not to utilise such a thing but if we put it to a straight YES/NO poll entitled:
IF YOU HAD THE HOLY GRAIL OF ROULETTE WOULD YOU USE IT TO MAKE MONEY?I think you'd find that you'd be one of a very few people that press the NO button...
However, youre right about non-utilisation being a good thing which is in line with what i said at the beginning of the thread, Casinos closing their doors would have a drastic affect on the world right?
Which then brings me back to my original statement; would it not be right to say that actually the HOLY GRAIL for which we seek, is actually a PANDORAS BOX of great destruction?
"Sorry mate but youre here on a roulette site where everybody is trying to find a better or the best way to win at the game of roulette, im sure that youve tried many different ways to play in your time as a player or "Rouletteer" ( as i like to call myself ) each time moving on to another way and adapting things to suit your style of play" >>> Maybe, maybe not. 8)
Ken
Sorry, i dont get the relevance of what
youre saying.. Obviously No one would do that!-36kid
But the essence of what we are both saying is that in an instance where a person is guaranteed too make a profit, only a fool would say no ill take chances and keep opening doors.... Right
That's what keeps casinos in business.
A Grail may look like $1/hour (depending on your bankroll of course)
It even may be steady money, make $500/year full-time play. It doesn't
draw the big crowds and "beautiful people" like the attention high-rollers get.
As for only a fool would say no...and keep opening doors. Note the millionaires from "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" for example vs those at the $500,000 threshold who lost and walked away with $10,000 instead. It happens more than you think.
Quote from: MrJ on Jul 06, 10:45 PM 2014
Maybe, maybe not. 8)
Doesnt really move things along... What your motivations are is beside the point...
But i take it that your silence on everythng else i said means you're not inclined to disagree..?
How about if I break it down a bit easier for you? Why I'm on this board (HG or no HG discussions) is none of your business. Cool?
Ken
Quote from: Proofreaders2000 on Jul 06, 10:57 PM 2014
Sorry, i dont get the relevance of what
youre saying.. Obviously No one would do that!-36kid
But the essence of what we are both saying is that in an instance where a person is guaranteed too make a profit, only a fool would say no ill take chances and keep opening doors.... Right
That's what keeps casinos in business.
A Grail may look like $1/hour (depending on your bankroll of course)
It even may be steady money, make $10,000/year full-time play. It doesn't
draw the big crowds and "beautiful people" like the attention high-rollers get.
Could you expand on what you mean by this?
As for only a fool would say no...and keep opening doors. Note the millionaires from "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" for example vs those at the $500,000 threshold who lost and walked away with $10,000 instead. It happens more than you think.
And this is exactly what i was trying to say to MrJ. regardless of the risk involved human nature to varying degrees drives us to push for more and be essentially "greedy"..
Now the poor people on who wants to be a millionaire who lost only had an audience, a friend and a phonecall.. They didnt know all the answers....
A true HG would eliminate the need for human intervention in the decion making process. it would just tell you the best thing to do to otherwise it wouldnt be THE HG it would just be a good system to use.. Think of it as an earpiece the millionaire contestant could choose to have embedded in thier ear connected to a command centre where Einstien sits infront of GooglePedia. Youd have the ability to open as many doors as you want without fear of loss.... I for one would not say no...
Quote from: MrJ on Jul 06, 11:14 PM 2014
How about if I break it down a bit easier for you? Why I'm on this board (HG or no HG discussions) is none of your business. Cool?
No need to get hostile.. Like i said your motivations for being here are beside the point. I put forward my personal and admittedly generalized opinion to help illustrate my main point. I apologise if that generalisation and my mistaken inclusion of you into one side or the other offended you. But even though he tried to side with you, Proofreaders2000 (sweet irony) just "proven" (couldnt resist that one) ;) my point..
Let's say you have a $31 bankroll and the wheel spins 31 of the same even chance. Since the world record is 36 of the same even chance you could bet with a progression 1,2,4,8,16 with confidence the opposite should hit. (all hypothetical here-odds are still under 50% for even-chance bets)
So there's your $1/hour reference (and if your bankroll were larger you could bet more)
It doesn't draw the big crowds and "beautiful people" like the attention high-rollers get.
People like to see large wagers-pitbosses come out a crowd may
gather. With that built-in edge chances are the bettor will lose that large bet.)
Ben Affleck (for example) can draw crowds because he
bets $20,000/hand in blackjack-and three hands at a time.
@36kid >> Any LONG TIME member here has my 100% respect and my 100% attention.
When a LONG TIME member posts something, I pause and take in what they have said. Afterall, I could learn something new. It does not mean I'll agree with the post but I at least consider the information.
Ken
But even though he tried to side with you, Proofreaders2000 (sweet irony) just "proven" (couldnt resist that one) my point..
I don't appreciate being drawn into your argument with Mr.
J. If you are only here to be a 'right-fighter' don't expect anymore helps.
From my point of view I would not share a true HG with one single person, simple as that. No one and I mean NO ONE (not even my spouse) knows how much money I have won in the past or how I did it, they see the results but have no idea how I did it. That is the way it will always stay with me. One gem of knowledge my father passed to me.
Why kill a golden goose, when you can look after it and continue to benefit from it long term with careful maintenance.
So are we all agreed that the definition of a true Holy Grail is winning on every spin, which will never be achieved?
Therefore the 'next best' Holy Grail is the Martingale with unlimited funds and no table limits?
So, the realistic definition is that we are after a system/betting sequence that wins every day/session. Whether that profit is £1 or £100, our ultimate aim is to make a profit.
As all systems will lose eventually, we can then narrow everything down to money management and ultimately luck.
It still amazes me that Einstein made his famous statement without the luxury of all the computer power we have today and we are still no further forward.
Surely by now, all permutations regarding betting have been explored - but we still think we have discovered something that no-one else has thought of.
Testing is good fun - being drawn into the dark depths of 'gambling' is a scary place.
My definition of holy G is a method that can overcome any down in a realistic amount of spins.
If it can overcome any down in let say 1000 spins it can t be played in real conditions.. so it s not the H.G.
Here is a question.
If you had $1000 and you had a system that was consistent (for the most part) in which you profit $0.50/hour would you play it (or try other systems hoping for a bigger payout)?
If it was a sure and steady winner ofcource I would play it!
And after some sessions I would increase the chip value and so on.
There will be a time that the 0,50$ will be 10$ in one hour.
Quote from: RobbieD on Jul 07, 05:25 PM 2014
So are we all agreed that the definition of a true Holy Grail is winning on every spin, which will never be achieved?
Therefore the 'next best' Holy Grail is the Martingale with unlimited funds and no table limits?
So, the realistic definition is that we are after a system/betting sequence that wins every day/session. Whether that profit is £1 or £100, our ultimate aim is to make a profit.
As all systems will lose eventually, we can then narrow everything down to money management and ultimately luck.
It still amazes me that Einstein made his famous statement without the luxury of all the computer power we have today and we are still no further forward.
Surely by now, all permutations regarding betting have been explored - but we still think we have discovered something that no-one else has thought of.
Testing is good fun - being drawn into the dark depths of 'gambling' is a scary place.
I think that the one thing we are all agreed on, is that the general consensus among us is that there is no true HG or system that we know of that can achieve whatever our personal interpretations of HG mean. Primarily because of our belief in the world around us and the established concepts of mathematics, phyisics, etc... makes it hard for us to see any logical way for it to be a reality.
in most of our minds true HG is an impossibility.
however, i personally dont believe in limiting your thinking by believing something is impossible. Id rather look at them as not yet achieved.
We live in a world of wonder where the human race has come from drawing lines in the sand with the holy fire-lighting stick to drawing lines in the sky with smoke that bellows from a manufactured flying lump of mineral that is fueled by the invisible but deadly force of kinetic vibration known as electricity. The very world we live in is an impossiblity in itself but yet we believe in the reality because we can touch, taste, feel and see its affects on us and in turn interact with it..
My point is this, Just because something is said to be impossibe or hasent yet been proven possible, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WILL NEVER BE A POSSIBILITY...
So when i apply this view to the subject at hand, i believe that there is a HG and it is just not discovered yet.. But given what we have said about its existance being impossible, IF it was a proven reality, it would not only present a contradiction to our current belief system in the form of an "impossible made possible" paradox, that could in turn provide the basis for advancements or new theories to predicting randomness, which is one of the core considerations of chaos theory... I believe that any advancements in this area that the world could share and utilise collectively would far outweigh any advancements or contributions that could be made by a group or single individual that would keep or use such a thing for thier own personal gain.
Im well aware that my views are slightly fantastical (in our current sphere of understanding) but the true essence of learning and advancement is the questioning of the established order of things in order to find revelations that lead to improvements on our understanding and the things we can then go on to do with our new knowlegde.
It is the reason why i started this thread. To learn. Through consideration of other peoples ideas. To push the boundaries of thinking. Challenge existing beliefs.... Because while we cling to old beliefs we can not truly make progress.
Quote from: 36kid on Jul 08, 07:48 AM 2014
i believe that there is a HG and it is just not discovered yet..
Or maybe it already has been discovered, just not exposed......
O0
Quote from: ddarko on Jul 08, 07:55 AM 2014
Or maybe it already has been discovered, just not exposed......
O0
Indeed....
Which, is what led me to start to hypothesise.. If it did exist, would it fit our current understanding of what is possible.? And if it didnt, what impact would that have on the the way we view the world.
I think that its safe to assume that such a discovery would mean the end of the game as we currently know it.
Which may or may not have massive implications for the gambling industry and subsequently the world?
But what new beginnings would come?
Just imagine for a moment a machine that could accurately predict random future events on a roullette wheel.. Could the same technology be used to accutarely predict how cancer cells would advance within a human body? Or could it be used to further bolster our understanding of ability to predict weather patterns giving humanity the means to protect itself from natural disaster? These are just 2 alternative applications that i think such a "miracle machine" could achieve, but there are a multitude of other applications for which it could be applied, each with thier own set of uniquely positive or negative characteristics...
But again these are my own "boundary pushing" beliefs, and that is all i have.. BELIEF. I KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. And anything which i do "claim" to ACTUALLY KNOW, WILL ALWAYS BE SUBJECT TO CHANGE IF A NEW PERSPECTIVE IS FOUND.
"Or maybe it already has been discovered, just not exposed" >>> Thats what I'm leaning towards, IN MY OPINION.
Ken
Quote from: MrJ on Jul 08, 12:04 PM 2014
"Or maybe it already has been discovered, just not exposed" >>> Thats what I'm leaning towards, IN MY OPINION.
Ken
Unlike some here, I respect your views Ken ;) Can I ask why your thinking that way please?
O0
Quote from: MrJ on Jul 08, 12:04 PM 2014
"Or maybe it already has been discovered, just not exposed" >>> Thats what I'm leaning towards, IN MY OPINION.
Ken
Think we have something in common now.. :)
Quote from: ddarko on Jul 08, 12:06 PM 2014
Unlike some here, I respect your views Ken ;) Can I ask why your thinking that way please?
O0
Id also like to know why you think this way. Do any of your reasons bear similaities to those i mentioned at the start of this topic?
Holy Grail Stories
There is the story of a Chinese guy who would play everyday at the exact same time 10:00am when the casino opened. His strategy was to wait for an even chance to miss six consecutive times, then bet the cold even chance for up to five spins.
He had a bankroll of $3100 and would bet with a progression of 100,200,400,800,1600
I understand he never lost and would leave immediately after he won his daily $100
(He made over $30,000/year with this strategy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was another guy who would bet the last decision number and a neighbor on each side continuously until he made $300/day. He was known to carry a bankroll in excess of $3000 and bet $2/number each spin.
It has been some time I posted something… no Im still around… only busy building my real business.
But sure the HG question keeps me still busy… last weekend I attended a business seminar and beside good new business insight I got me also some new idea for roulette..
Does the HG exists or is it just a myth… well it depends who you ask. If you ask a player, he probably will say yes “it’s a way to beat rouletteâ€. The casino will say, yes we protect the HG with all we can… but be we need to keep sure we still have players on the tables..
So if you play by the rules, that we think that apply, 99% of the people will play within the rules…. And only 1% really will rise above the rest… look at the people who make it in the world. (ok some will legally surpass the rules) But the art is to play the business game and bent the rules in your favor… better known as think outside the box…
So you can see the HG of roulette the rules that the casino force on you… and without changing the rules of roulette â€" the game, what is that the casino force on us, why do we lose… mainly the table limits. (without table limit you can win it with a high BR)
So the HG for the casino is the table limits… they protect them from always losing on the player.
As player we try to solve this by bet selection and progression systems. So with a good bet selection and progression you make a chance to make a profit… but then there is something that will blow it away…
So we add also money management to get over making major losses but still…
So we are missing some extra factor(s) to beat roulette… find a solution to overcome table limit..
That’s not really possible if you play by the rules… so you need to make sure you have a system that can win in the most extreme case before you reach the table limit.
And in business, you can grow linear.. but means your output will be linear to your input. So if you want to grow you need to combine multiple techniques at once… in roulette that would be combining multiple bet selection methods and make sure this has a geometric result on your predictions…. And by this way you increase the accuracy of the bet selection…
Other rule in business, to make something good out of something bad… most cases it’s not more as a 10% change in idea, plan or system…
ddarko & 36kid >> Was real busy, sorry.
Like my post said.....its ONLY my opinion, I have NO FACTS on the matter. No person has stopped by my place and dropped off a HG. Myself, I do QUITE WELL with roulette. I dont want to debate the HG definition, "well" is "well".
I just FEEL that if a person put in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours over many years (studying), why would he/she stick with it if they were getting nowhere? Reminds me of an old thread I did a few years ago, I might re-post it.
Also, what about good old, being selfish? A person puts in all those hours and has something decent, WHY share it? Why give it out (or even sell it) to others that put in maybe 9 hours with roulette? Not very fair to the guy who busted his a**.
Its out there guys, trust me. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ken
Thanks for getting back to me/us Ken :thumbsup:
I will look out for that re-post ;)
O0
I am curious about something Spin4Fun posted:
Quotein roulette that would be combining multiple bet selection methods and make sure this has a geometric result on your predictions…
I have been wondering about the same issue. There are many methods shared with relatively good results but the longer they play out the worse the odds get. What if you play for a smaller goal but more bet selection methods?
For example, play 5 methods with a goal of 3 units instead of 1 method for 15 units.
Of course, keeping track of 5 methods is more challenging but that can be helped with aids.
...maybe the more experienced players can share their input on this?
Quote from: Proofreaders2000 on Jul 05, 11:22 PM 2014
Me personally, I had an even-chance go to 18 consecutive blacks.
Well there is a couple of ways to dodge that bullet is there not ?
Bet 2 EC's & bet for one of them to change, not both to repeat/change
O0
@DDarko: Are you saying to bet the other two EC's or to bet for or
against the streaking EC (the one with the 18 consecutive)?
Quote from: Proofreaders2000 on Jul 18, 03:52 PM 2014
@DDarko: Are you saying to bet the other two EC's or to bet for or
against the streaking EC (the one with the 18 consecutive)?
Bet for & against any TWO EC's !!!! (one to stay the same the other to change)
this would stop you losing on 18 consecutive blacks or reds or odd or even or high or low
No more than a solution to that problem ;)
O0
Just Saying:
As long as human greed exists: To became winners overnight. No system will be considered a holy grail.
Lets take my example: I only invest about $60.00 on any given site. I try what I want to try. Turn it into $100.00 or $200.00.
I withdraw my initial amount. Ready to lose the rest. Why? Because I have a steady income.
I now deposit the same amount on a friends account. Use the same system. I lose within 200-300 spins.
What that tells me is some people are born to be lucky in gambling. Gambling is like buying a lottery ticket. If you lucky you will win if not you will lose.
NO CASINO WILL CHEAT TO WIN. HUMAN GREED MAKES HUMAN LOSE TO CASINOS.
Take an example from Random.org: It has got no idea as to what you doing with the number's. Design a system you think is unbeatable. Run the numbers from Random.org. Your system will bust.
Design a system that is logically beatable. Have enough bankroll to play with it. It will win in the long run. Don't play a system that has to have progression. Any system with progression will lose in the end.
always a bit confused when people test using random.org numbers.
Say your testing a system for RNG (boo hiss), surely using RNG numbers would be best for testing ?
Say your testing a system for live dealer, surely using live dealer numbers would be best for testing ?
Dazed n confused ??? ??? ???
O0
Hey Ken, Ddarko.. Apologies for my absence "I went in search of the Holy Grail!!!! :twisted:
good to see this discussion is still going and that new contributors have joined..
Love the fact that despite my requests at the beginning, this has still sort of turned into a "DEFINING HG" discussion.. I wont even watse my time responding to those speculations. Opinion is opinion. However i will say "Those who seek, and think outside the box will eventually find"
Ken Re:selfishness. Could you imagine what our world would be like if people who had been searching for answers to questions had found them and not told anybody... Einstien and Theory of relativity, A G Bell and the telephone..
Personally, i believe in giving back. HG aside. i believe if you have something to share you should share it, but only if it causes you and others no harm to do so.. All the money in the world would be worthless if you didnt have anybody to share it, (and the experiences it brings) with.
Quote from: Azim on Jul 20, 07:37 PM 2014
Just Saying:
As long as human greed exists: To became winners overnight. No system will be considered a holy grail.
NO CASINO WILL CHEAT TO WIN. HUMAN GREED MAKES HUMAN LOSE TO CASINOS.
Azim. This is one of the most valid points so far on this topic. Im sure it was stated earlier but this is the crux of the matter.. Human Interference..
If HG was a reality GREED would almost certainly become prevelant in a consistant winner. If HG were to make you unbeatable then why would you want to stop. Greed will push you to keep pushing for more, an undisciplined person (could, would, may, will) fall victim to thier own greed therefore making HG useless because Human (Mis)Judgement becomes the basis for actions, and when these actions are led by greed and not disciplined, mistakes are made...
However, greed cannot affect those who stay disciplined and This is where the grail lies. In self control and discipline.
Anybody can learn methods.. That is the EASY part!!!! Keeping yourself under control.... Master that and all else becomes irrelevant
Quote from: MrJ on Jul 12, 07:31 PM 2014
Its out there guys, trust me. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ken
FACT!!
Love that we can now agree on certain things Ken. :thumbsup:
@36kid
Sorry if it's got a bit off topic, some of that is down to me :-[
& hope your search went well :thumbsup:
O0
Quote from: 36kid on Jul 24, 08:56 AM 2014
Azim. This is one of the most valid points so far on this topic. Im sure it was stated earlier but this is the crux of the matter.. Human Interference..
If HG was a reality GREED would almost certainly become prevelant in a consistant winner. If HG were to make you unbeatable then why would you want to stop. Greed will push you to keep pushing for more, an undisciplined person (could, would, may, will) fall victim to thier own greed therefore making HG useless because Human (Mis)Judgement becomes the basis for actions, and when these actions are led by greed and not disciplined, mistakes are made...
However, greed cannot affect those who stay disciplined and This is where the grail lies. In self control and discipline.
Anybody can learn methods.. That is the EASY part!!!! Keeping yourself under control.... Master that and all else becomes irrelevant
Greed can be nasty. How much is enough? How far do you want your bankroll to go?
If you look at it as an investment and be happy with 10% return on your initial bankroll. You will be a winner in the long run.
10% adds up, what we humans (including myself) want is something that will never lose. That will never happen.
Look at the World cup and it's history.. The Brazilians are supposed to be the best team in the world. Yet they have not won the cup for a while. Yet they have the most count of wins compared to any wins by any country.
Does that make them a losing country. NO!!
As long as your winning are more than your losses and you have enough bankroll to support your system, you will be a winner and consistently win.
Quote from: Azim on Jul 24, 11:47 AM 2014
what we humans (including myself) want is something that will never lose. That will never happen.
unfortunately I cannot prove that the above is untrue, but I'm sure it is !!!!!!
O0
I have personally seen 24 reds come up in a row. I have read that the record is 43 reds.
Has anyone heard of long runs with the other EC's ?
regards
Bruce
like the idea of a grail,but dont think we'll ever hear of one even if it did exist.
If something tested for a million spins and fails the last spin,is it a grail,suppose, no,as it might bite one in a few spins of play,but then again it might not fail for another 999,999 spins