I want to share my experience about playing airball roulette and exchange experience with other players.
I compiled my findings in the youtube video after I started noticing suspicious behavior from these type of wheels.
Alarm bells went of when I came across the following patent US Patent Application No: 2014/0015 194
The links towards the video and the patent can be found in the attachment.
Most of this newer model airball have not less then 16! diamonds and deep pockets. The interblock doesn't show a lot of scatter, actually almost no scatter. Coincidence? I don't think so because scatter and spinners are uncontrollable. It helps them to steering the ball towards a certain pocket or empty sector. It feels like this mechanism takes control when I start betting. If I am only watching without betting, I see very playable repeating patterns. I was able to find them through secretly filming the devices and reverse engineer the spins. In the case of Interblock, machines are configured differently from each other and probably have different software updates. I will not play any of them anymore and will go back to the live table. Wasted quiet some time on them.
Example:
link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=gB_tAMu9rms&feature=player_detailpage (link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=gB_tAMu9rms&feature=player_detailpage)
Someone on another forum states the airball machine in our local casino carries a plate where it says the machine is obliged by law to pay 70% of total wages and keep the remaining 30%.
Hi Normy, long time since you helped me out with RX programming! I saw that video myself as well. What's the world coming to when you can't even trust casino's anymore :)
Hi psimoes,
It would be interesting to see that thread because I've been roaming different roulette forums for long time searching on airball but never came across about what you are saying.
Eventually on a long run game floor with games of 30% house edge will rather lose because many people will stop using it. Casinos understand it. You can see a good example of European (single zero) and American (double zero) roulette. Less than 3% difference in house edge.
In Europe roulette is a "queen" of casino games. Nothing beats roulette in popularity. In Americas where double zero roulette wheels basically prevail, black jack is more popular than roulette.
So i hardly believe it.
Hi birima, it's some rogue thread on a portuguese forum focused on football/soccer counter-betting. You can't really tell what the forum members' background on roulette is, so it might be a conspiracy-theory kind of post, but nevertheless the claim could be verified. If true, there should be a sign with the warning bolted onto the machine. Discrete enough, I imagine, as the casino wouldn't want gamblers to know they're playing on a one-armed bandit in disguise.
Quote from: iggiv on Dec 20, 04:58 PM 2014
Eventually on a long run game floor with games of 30% house edge will rather lose because many people will stop using it. Casinos understand it. You can see a good example of European (single zero) and American (double zero) roulette. Less than 3% difference in house edge.
In Europe roulette is a "queen" of casino games. Nothing beats roulette in popularity. In Americas where double zero roulette wheels basically prevail, black jack is more popular than roulette.
So i hardly believe it.
Ya, 30% is too much. Perhaps the poster meant 97% - 3%...
Small percentage can be fixed, but is it worth it? It is easy to find through manufacturers, usually they take pride of their products being highly unbiased.
Some online casinos based on software are a different story though. Some of them there where laws allow it more or less are for quick and easy cash and then know they will close soon. So their software programmers can make some tricks for them, and basically nobody will find out what skillful programmer can hide in his sophisticated code. Even the reputable ones can go for it.
There was one guy which used to work in Playtech or somewhere else, he was a member in the old VLS forum, he claimed he knew some "tricks" used by software and promised to tell how they can be overcome. The next thing which happened he said the company (his former employer) found him and gave him a threat of a law suite against him, after he told about this he has never posted again.
link:://forum.contraposta.com/discussao-geral/casinos-(sistemas-bons-e-maos)/msg19639/#msg19639 (link:://forum.contraposta.com/discussao-geral/casinos-(sistemas-bons-e-maos)/msg19639/#msg19639)
There's the post.
I did have a bad experience with an airball machine. I was on an L6 progression while playing Cluster II and the machine didn't let me insert a banknote and carried on with the spinning. The number that hit would be a win. Suspicious coincidence.
such things happen. I am not sure if this coincidence or not, but there are always coincidences in this life.
I can tell you i knew a couple of my friends (husband and wife) who i encountered accidentally 2 times in 2 different countries. Can you believe it? How often you can meet the same people 2 times in two different countries? But it did happen. And it was not a single astonishing coincidence in my life. If i was into conspiracy theories i would of course tell everyone that some known or unknown organizations are after me for some reasons and they hire people which i know. But coincidences DO HAPPEN, my friends. If there was a happy coincidence nobody would claim it as "suspicious", but unhappy one is suspicious of course. Roulette wheel can behave certain ways for long time just coincidentally. Time after time some people may get lucky or extremely unlucky. Because of nature of roulette game being unlucky is more likely. And it is very possible that the machine suddenly had a glitch which was unlucky for you.
If the number would not come and because of this coincidence the guy did not lose more money he would not claim this glitch "suspicious".
Wise words, but assuming the arcade roulettes (well, the ones you find at the bookeepers) are rigged, the idea of a rigged mechanical roulette is plausible.
My advice to anyone who plays the arcade style roulette machines in bookmakers is to stay away from them.
Up until about 18 months ago, if you pressed the button at the same time as the guy next to you on another machine, you both got the same random number.
That does not happen anymore. You both get a different number. Try it and see. >:D
Lol I wrote bookeepers
if you are talking about electronic machines which does not have mechanical wheels and work on software, that's a totally different story.
Anything can happen.
I'll just leave these here :-)
link:://youtu.be/jEzXjJN1RH0 (link:://youtu.be/jEzXjJN1RH0)
link:://youtu.be/jAWF-qhh4pQ (link:://youtu.be/jAWF-qhh4pQ)
Until not long time ago I was speculating about the subject of my opening thread but do remember, it is all plain described in the patent. No word Chinese. By the way, I posted a second video with the same content on YouTube but for the Dutch players in Dutch language. I just want to point out the quality got better. The English clip was my first produced movie in Movie Maker and the Dutch clip was the second :D. It''s a learning curve :) :) :)
Incredible. I read the stuff. Speechless. Who gonna play these machines then?
QuoteIncredible. I read the stuff. Speechless. Who gonna play these machines then?
Everyday a new sucker is born. :)
Wouldn´t be surprised if they fluctuate the edge in order to atract players and then milk them. The technology makes it possible. And the machine could do the management by itself. They treat us like cattle, man.
I digged up some other raw material from patents online for those who still doubt the predictive capabilities of auto/ air ball roulettes (This might become my new hobby) :).
This...
The location of the roulette ball and the home position may be determined at 608, e.g., when the roulette ball comes to a stop in a slot. Alternatively, predictive techniques may be used to determine in advance which slot will receive the roulette ball. Some such techniques may involve determining a ball position and/or trajectory when the ball has slowed to a threshold speed. Some such implementations provide magnets or the like to influence which slot will receive the ball, e.g.,
And this...
The rotation of the roulette wheel may be stopped at 610 to indicate the winning number corresponding with a random number generated by the random number generator.
And this...
In another embodiment, the separator may not have any separators as discussed above. As such, the sensor may be a plurality of electromagnets coupled to the underside of each of the slots. Once the random winning number is generated, the electromagnet under the slot corresponding to the winning number on the outer and/or inner ring may be activated to attract the roulette ball. The processor may then control the spin of the outer ring, separator ring, and inner ring to stop at the random winner number. In another embodiment, only one electromagnet may be required wherein the ball will always stop in the same slot. The processor may then control the spin of the outer ring, separator ring, and inner ring to stop at the random winner number.
A solution to overcome these problems is provided in US 7 762 883 , disclosing a motorized random number based roulette wheel. When a game of roulette is played, a number generator is arranged to provide a random number to a processor. Thereafter, the ball decreases in speed and enter one of the slots which is noticed by the processor. The rotation of the wheel is then decreased and controlled by means of a motor such that the number provided to the processor by the number generator corresponds to the slot where the ball has entered, i.e. the winning number is the number generated by the random number generator.
Cheers to all
Quote from: psimoes on Dec 20, 06:22 PM 2014
Wise words, but assuming the arcade roulettes (well, the ones you find at the bookeepers) are rigged, the idea of a rigged mechanical roulette is plausible.
Quote from: wiggy on Dec 20, 06:40 PM 2014
My advice to anyone who plays the arcade style roulette machines in bookmakers is to stay away from them.
Up until about 18 months ago, if you pressed the button at the same time as the guy next to you on another machine, you both got the same random number.
That does not happen anymore. You both get a different number. Try it and see. >:D
Wiggy you could be right as i pushed the button so did the person next to me,now i thought we'll get the same #, but when looking at their machine ( now Ausguy old friend i know should not play rng) the image of a spinning roulette wheel was going in the other direction to mine, so no we wont get the same #, but they got 28 i got 29, so if i was a nano second behind or if you've noticed you are not in the draw,then thats maybe why i got the next ascending or descending (which one is right for the PC brigade) number.
Psimoes if you care to download the stakes sheet in Ddarkos topic it all relates to bookies roulette,its not quite up todate as been lazy but only on friday i could see in a group of 10 spins i'll post it later you'll see the 10 spins, it starts on the 35th spin , it relates to spins 11 to 20, which has 8 numbers with 2 repeats, as said the stakes sheet needs up dating,but i've seen 8 numbers take 31 spins to come in,(dane could you work out how long 8 could miss for with those fancy formulas, thanks) well the stakes sheet says could bet for 17 spins but if updated max spin would be 31,so take the 17 from the 31 difference 14, so wait 14 then start to bet, well it got to 14 repeats and thought no if it goes 32 it will have caught me, lets see if i'd been betting for the 8th number Jimmie b knows, so waited and 17 spins went would be well out of pocket, so now start to bet remember only bet for 17 spins as will be at max bet in bookies, well on my 14th spin it came in, which would have been31 spins, if went when the 14th repeat came. So are they cheating or is it just like the live roulette ? but its only an EGM
Hi Nottophammer,
Are you talking here about airball (auto mechanical setup with real wheel and ball) or slots with a graphical display of a roulette wheel?.
graphical display of a roulette wheel
Know a gentleman who took corals to the gaming commission about payouts in bookie roulette and was dismissed,
Quote from: nottophammer on Jan 17, 07:43 PM 2015
Wiggy you could be right as i pushed the button so did the person next to me,now i thought we'll get the same #, but when looking at their machine ( now Ausguy old friend i know should not play rng) the image of a spinning roulette wheel was going in the other direction to mine, so no we wont get the same #, but they got 28 i got 29, so if i was a nano second behind or if you've noticed you are not in the draw,then thats maybe why i got the next ascending or descending (which one is right for the PC brigade) number.
Here is the way they work now Nottophammer,
The machine picks out around 9 random numbers. It will decide if it is going to pay you on your lowest bet number or highest bet number (assuming you have bet on some of the 9 numbers that were randomly picked) depending on how much in front or behind these machines are with regards to payout percentages. So there is no point playing any strategy on them when they work like this. It's not illegal or cheating because they do pay out at the 97.30% which they are supposed to.
The change was very crafty in my opinion, because before, everybody could win if they picked the right numbers and the operators could lose a lot more short term than 2.7% before the 'long term' kicked in. They have got around that 'problem' now and can regulate things more efficiently.
This is not second hand info or what my mate told me down the pub. This
IS the way they now work.
My advice...don't play them unless you have a few quid to throw away.
Quote from: wiggy on Jan 18, 08:43 AM 2015
Here is the way they work now Nottophammer,
The machine picks out around 9 random numbers. It will decide if it is going to pay you on your lowest bet number or highest bet number (assuming you have bet on some of the 9 numbers that were randomly picked) depending on how much in front or behind these machines are with regards to payout percentages. So there is no point playing any strategy on them when they work like this. It's not illegal or cheating because they do pay out at the 97.30% which they are supposed to.
The change was very crafty in my opinion, because before, everybody could win if they picked the right numbers and the operators could lose a lot more short term than 2.7% before the 'long term' kicked in. They have got around that 'problem' now and can regulate things more efficiently.
This is not second hand info or what my mate told me down the pub. This IS the way they now work.
My advice...don't play them unless you have a few quid to throw away.
Could I ask how you know this please Wiggy ?
Thxs
O0
Quote from: ddarko on Jan 18, 09:02 AM 2015
Could I ask how you know this please Wiggy ?
Thxs
O0
I am not on the inside ddarko....but I am close to someone who is. This info is not really out there and I suppose most people were not even aware about the change with regards to the same number not coming up anymore if two people pressed the button at the same time. It's worth repeating the payout is still 97.30%. However, it's not really roulette in a traditional sense is it?
I just hope it enlightens anybody who thinks playing a strategy on one of these machines would be the same as playing against a live wheel spun by a croupier.
Thanks.
Quote from: wiggy on Jan 18, 09:49 AM 2015
I am not on the inside ddarko....but I am close to someone who is. This info is not really out there and I suppose most people were not even aware about the change with regards to the same number not coming up anymore if two people pressed the button at the same time. It's worth repeating the payout is still 97.30%. However, it's not really roulette in a traditional sense is it?
I just hope it enlightens anybody who thinks playing a strategy on one of these machines would be the same as playing against a live wheel spun by a croupier.
Thanks.
Thxs for the reply Wiggy :thumbsup: How on earth can it be legal when it picks 9 random numbers (& one number from them) when it should be picking one of 37 random numbers should it not ?
They are already a cash cow for thousands of bookies in the Uk & this change will keep that money coming in at an
even steadier flow than before....
O0
I can only assume it is to cause some kind of psychological impact which can lead to addiction. Heavy winning runs or heavy losing runs will cause the player to experience a lot of highs and lows all in a very short space of time. There is a reason why some people call these machines the 'crack cocaine' of gambling. A lot of money and research goes into all this kind of stuff to maximize profits. Nobody should really be surprised. As long as they pay out at 97.30% as stated on the machine.
Quote from: wiggy on Jan 18, 10:23 AM 2015
I can only assume it is to cause some kind of psychological impact which can lead to addiction. Heavy winning runs or heavy losing runs will cause the player to experience a lot of highs and lows all in a very short space of time. There is a reason why some people call these machines the 'crack cocaine' of gambling. A lot of money and research goes into all this kind of stuff to maximize profits. Nobody should really be surprised. As long as they pay out at 97.30% as stated on the machine.
No doubt the bookies will sight those bold sentences as the reason they did it, should this information ever hit the mainstream...
Stand up kinda guys right ?
No, just ask William Hill ;)
O0
Hi all,
Full article on the matter I posted here as guest writer: roulette30 from Kavouras. I cannot post the link, it is saying my message contains bad language :twisted:.
Cheers
I've never known auto roulette in a regulated casino to influence spins to avoid paying players. Doing that would be a very big and unnecessary risk for any casino. Why risk milions to save much smaller amounts?
Integrating rng with real wheels is not influencing outcomes, from a legal perspective.
The technology to target or avoid numbers has been around for a long time, but it is never used in regulated casinos.
I think you should read the article including the documented patents herein before assuming that casinos wouldn't do such a thing. Afterall, these air-ball roulettes are classified as EGMs. The whole point is, it might not be illegal because of their classification but it looks like a roulette wheel while some of them are not, they're like slot machines with fixed payout rates. Using RNG's to randomize the outcome is not a problem but determining a number by RNG before or during ball release, certainly is. If after reading the article, you still have doubts, I would be very interested to discuss on the matter.
Cheers
Birima, I read the patent. So basically the winning number is determined as below:
1. The pockets move, but the actual numbers remain static.
2. RNG selects winning number
3. Ball lands into pocket without any interference
4. Then the pockets rotate to align with the RNG-selected winning number
Whoever designed that and paid for a patent attorney is a moron. It would piss off so many players to see the ball land and remain still in a pocket, and then the rotor (with static ball) moves around to some number, and the player loses.
So the wheel is not specifically influencing the physics of the wheel. They are not using magnets. They are rotating the ring with pockets to align with the winning number selected by RNG. So it would be very easy for the player to identify such a wheel.
No smart casino would use such a wheel. It would create a lot of distrust amongst players. But not all, because at many casinos now they have rows and rows of betting screens and chairs with players betting on "spin outcomes" of computer animations on a big screen at the front. When I first saw this, I wanted to stand at the front and yell "you are all stupid" (in the nicest way possible).
You referenced one patent, but Ive never seen a wheel like that being used and never heard of one. This is because there is better technology that addresses the casino's problem of advantage play, with a better prospect of not losing trust from players. For example, the RRS wheels. These change the speed of the rotor after no more bets is called. A perfect example is at :.hybridroulettecomputer.com/rrc_decelerate.avi (link:://:.hybridroulettecomputer.com/rrc_decelerate.avi)
An average player would have no clue this was happening. Some players do notice it and lose trust in the casino's honesty. An experienced advantage player would detect it before spending time on the wheel. It is mostly a deterrent because it does not affect all styles of advantage play. In all the casino is likely to actually lose money if they use these wheels, because of the types of players below:
Player 1: An advantage player realistically wont win much, at least in a short period, because they need to cap winnings to avoid detection.
Player 2: An observant player (non-advantage) with a large bankroll can very easily play elsewhere once they notice something is not right with the wheel.
Player 1 will win money at a slower rate than player 2 loses money, and there are a lot more of "player 2's" than "player 1's around". So RRS wheels are still a bad choice for casinos.
The best solution for casinos is careful monitoring. But even with careful monitoring, professional teams will still easily win enough to be comfortable. There are many things they could do, but they dont do them and may be 10+ years from doing them. Most of the professionals in the industry are fully aware of advantage players, but mostly consider them a pest. Like mosquitos that are around, but they dont take too much if you slap them quickly. An occasional loss of $5000 or so to casinos is not much considering casinos can earn this much in one spin.
Hi Steve,
Thank you for taking time to read the patent. Did you read the article on Kav's site too? Yes, that wheel is for morons and will never be succesfull, I believe. The thing is that patented technique of - RNG determining number before and during ball release - is downwards compatible with the traditional wheels we know. This is mentioned in one of the last paragraphs in the article.
Cheers
Yes I read the article but it seems out of place. Many of his articles are very inaccurate and contrary to AP. Did you write the article?
Are you a vb player?
Regarding backwards compatible, yes they could just change rotors but I think whoever designed it was thinking of sales to casinos rather than effectiveness. It'd be a lot of extra messing around with equipment and would end up losing casinos more money
Yes I am the author of the article. I do not play 'systems' myself anymore.
Cheers
I am not an airball machine expert; but this should be obvious:
If I am the only one playing there, I am an easy target!
Better safe than sorry. Never play alone there!
If more players are spreading their bets
at the same time, the machine can´t
beat them all!