I decided to try this way.
I'm a little tired wanting to get something for free
This is a section dedicated to advertising services, maybe this form will reach more and more successful players.
To offer I have time, patience and bankroll.
This proposition is addressed to players who have some profitable and playable strategies.
I would like to offer my cooperation based on giving you 30% of the future profits of your strategy to the end of my life.
If you are looking for a discreet person who can give you passive income for many years I would like to offer.
This proposal is 100% serious and thoughtful, if you want to know more about me, write and I give details.
KIMO LI
But does his strategy work?
Have you tested it and can you say it is worth it.
I can try to contact him, but from what I know he wants money from the top, not the profit percentages.
bonjour je vous propose une methode simple et rentable,c'est un jeux fixe a la roulette avec une mise progréssive si intéréssé me contacter y. charles@sfr.fr merci
Quote from: ozon on Apr 23, 04:00 PM 2017
I decided to try this way.
I'm a little tired wanting to get something for free
This is a section dedicated to advertising services, maybe this form will reach more and more successful players.
To offer I have time, patience and bankroll.
This proposition is addressed to players who have some profitable and playable strategies.
I would like to offer my cooperation based on giving you 30% of the future profits of your strategy to the end of my life.
If you are looking for a discreet person who can give you passive income for many years I would like to offer.
This proposal is 100% serious and thoughtful, if you want to know more about me, write and I give details.
some questions:
1) What is your starting bankroll?
2) Do you have time+patience to spend hours on B&M Casinos?
3) What is the maximum limit on dozens to play at your bm casino?
4) Whats your daily target to win?
you can answer to any questions where you are comfortable and other you can pm me.
by asking these questions, it doesn't mean I am going to offer anything, but I can surely direct you to some threads on this forum, which will fulfill your dreams. (Possibly you have read full website but not sure where to put money but I can assist you).
I am new here on forum but not new on roulette.
hopefully am not breaking any forum rule, if so, its not intentional.
thanks and regards,
sugtips
As for the next time I will have a lot of time for the game again.
I wanted to renew my offer, maybe I will find a person interested.
With something really interesting.
Unfortunately, nothing came out of previous searches.
The offer is like in the first post, if someone needs a passive profit, or has something interesting that generates profits, I am open to cooperation.
Would you like to try the Double Attack strategy?
If yes, email me doubleattack.strategy@gmail.com
If no, just say nothing
I will answer for sure.
But I do not know if your strategy is not too new.
I would like to know what average return on capital I can expect to spend 10 hours a day.
Here, I do not look at rates, only percent.
If using a budget with a large number of units, I will not be able to pull more than 10% of the budget for month, so the strategy is not very profitable for me, due to the time spent on the game.
I have a system to offer, but not publicly.
email: Proofreaders2000@aol.com
ozon let's talk.evsr1979@mail.ru
well? both "VA8" & "Fun Factory" had about an 80% winrate,... (i guess, that's the best i can do),....although, i haven't got the time do more testings.. :question:
VA8 link:s://:.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=20644.0
Fun Factory link:s://:.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=20656.msg207758;topicseen#msg207758
Quote from: ozon on Apr 23, 04:00 PM 2017I would like to offer my cooperation based on giving you 30% of the future profits of your strategy to the end of my life.
If you are looking for a discreet person who can give you passive income for many years I would like to offer.
This proposal is 100% serious and thoughtful, if you want to know more about me, write and I give details.
I'm not a fan of future profits, which is a guarantee of sorts. I'm running a validation scenario where five students will learn my method from me, in as little as three weeks, but I will stick with them each until they clearly have it.
I'm now offering those last four spots a full money back guarantee with the full knowledge in advance that they will have five years to exploit it before I publish a book revealing everything. The basic bankroll required is around $3200. I require compensation for what will amount to a minimum of 40 to 50 hours on the short side and a few hours discussion on things observed by expert players once they have learned it all. I require that the students show me that they have it too. I provide special software for that purpose. This is a very simple way to beat Roulette. That is why the book will be the storm that shakes the casino foundations. That is the plan unless someone out there can convince me of a better way to proceed.
Here is what I'm seeing from my only one student:
Logs:
After a full week of study, he started practicing:
Wins: Losses:
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
That's 9 losses and 43 wins.
That equates to 6,300 in losses and 11,610 in wins. Not bad for just three weeks work. I'm surprised. I can tell he is getting better too.
Today he had 8 winning sessions and 2 lost sessions for a net win of 900.
I expect the same results if I get any other students and that is why I'm offering a full refund if the new student can't do this. I assume that anyone paying for a real method would actually want to win. I don't want to waste my time. I won't take a student from Australia. I already have one there and I want to leave those casinos to him. I have the western USA covered. I don't know much about a group of players, like a team. Don't really need one. It would be fun to sell this to a team with an acceptable non disclosure agreement that puts an end to the book. I need a good price and would willingly pay a finders fee for such an opportunity to meet a private investor. I'm just looking to capitalize of this. I could even sell the right to it a major casino so that it will just go away. I've really got the goods and would love to pass it on for enough money to make it worth it.
Hold on for a sec, you are also on gambling forums. Com. I've read all your problems of your past. That you can't seem to win from the game and wanted to quit gambling. And then you were trying to figure out Mr. J's aka Ken's repeater method. Now you are proposing here for a fee and you have a system that can make the casinos go away?
Makes sense.
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 08, 01:28 PM 2018
Hold on for a sec, you are also on gambling forums. Com. I've read all your problems of your past. That you can't seem to win from the game and wanted to quit gambling. And then you were trying to figure out Mr. J's aka Ken's repeater method. Now you are proposing here for a fee and you have a system that can make the casinos go away?
Makes sense.
You have it all figured out. If you read everything you will notice that everything changed about 3 months ago. I have been to the casino three times and I have trained one student to do this new method. I have also eliminated what my weakness was. It does not matter what you think that you know. Have you ever seen a person walk others through failure on an open forum before? This is why I am doing it. You are being told the real story because only the real story is what is worth hearing. I thought it a novelty for my legacy. I expect skepticism. It's what will make this story so good in the end. Thanks for reading.
In the past, I bought several systems for larger and smaller amounts.
And believe me , none work, I was amazed at what the seller promised me, the friendly return of money and such other. It never came to anything, as I proved that their systems did not work, and I was losing money, they attacked me. that I've made up.
Therefore, these proposals are directed to people who have an experience with their system, and rather earn money with it. I know that if someone earns what he needs me for, as a passive profit, as additional money. I have time to play, many hours a day.
Right away I'm writing, I'm not going to pay, nothing in advance. I try to believe every person who writes to me, but I am in this business for a long time to believe that if someone played 1000 bets and has positive results, it will stay in the long run.
I wouldn’t spend more then $30 on any strategy
And that’s only if I’m bored
Don't get me wrong gizmotron, I admire you skills and knowledge. And there's only few that I look up to. We are all human and in a casino environment, it's often difficult to practice what you preach. I've been there and done that countless times.
No matter how many tests you've done or any mental preparation.
It's just that all out of a sudden you have a winning method. But if I were you, keep it for yourself. That alone will give you enough profit for the rest of your life. Selling it always raises questions and skeptisicm.
Best way is to give hints and tips get people to think of a winning method of their own.
30 x 100 placed bets is the standard for an above 95 % winrate strategy.
Anything that fails below that should be dismissed.
Some people really earn good money on roulette.
And I'm never kidding with money, I'm in these forums for so many years only because of the money. I never come to it like fun.
I am always looking for some new good source of income.
And I am always able to pay such a person, who shares knowledge with me.
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 08, 02:47 PM 2018
30 x 100 placed bets is the standard for an above 95 % winrate strategy.
Anything that fails below that should be dismissed.
What do you mean by this?
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 08, 02:44 PM 2018
Don't get me wrong gizmotron, I admire you skills and knowledge. And there's only few that I look up to. We are all human and in a casino environment, it's often difficult to practice what you preach. I've been there and done that countless times.
No matter how many tests you've done or any mental preparation.
It's just that all out of a sudden you have a winning method. But if I were you, keep it for yourself. That alone will give you enough profit for the rest of your life. Selling it always raises questions and skeptisicm.
Best way is to give hints and tips get people to think of a winning method of their own.
I've given out the hints. I was a person trying to make trips to the casino worth it by beating the casino in huge win streaks. But that was also my downfall. It is for those that have real playing experience to figure that out. I was in discussions with several good players about this nemesis on our backs. We all experienced winning sessions and losing sessions. We were not improving. I figured out why too. At least I figured it out for me. I needed to simplify all this. So I went back to what worked well from my past. The answer was sitting right in front of me. I'm in the process of funding my bankroll. I'm one third the way there already. I have the right to sell this to one, two, or three people in order to get funded. There is no confusion in me on why I'm doing it this way. I have a reason to go to the casino with a larger bankroll. It's what I need. To get that I'm willing to take a chance on a couple of people. If they spill the beans then I will be the inventor. If they keep it to themselves then they will be the story too. Nothing like this stays hidden forever. They always figure out what winners are doing.
You will be surprised that there are plenty of people out there who have a winning consistency. The game won't be removed trust me. I have beaten the game since about 7 or 8 months ago with huge improvements and final tweaks. The game has only one weakness, but everybody uses a different approach to attack it, but the very core remains the same.
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 08, 03:36 PM 2018
You will be surprised that there are plenty of people out there who have a winning consistency. The game won't be removed trust me. I have beaten the game since about 7 or 8 months ago with huge improvements and final tweaks. The game has only one weakness, but everybody uses a different approach to attack it, but the very core remains the same.
Agree, no "winning system" would ever change anything in roulette's rules, ever. I've seen Denzie and other people beg people like Turbo to "STOP TALKING ABOUT UR SYSTEM PLZZZZZ IT WILL RUIN DA GAME" and I laugh every time.
No one is changing anything, no matter how widespread some "winning" roulette system spreads.
Think of blackjack as an example. Now think of blackjack basic strategy. Now recall how many times you've seen people next to you using proper basic strategy, despite how well-known/common/old/acknowledged it is as just a default basis of how to play.
Hell, never.
Even at the quarter tables it doesn't appear, clowns are doing whatever they feel like at the moment, particularly if they got the anchor seat and are hitting on their 16 against a dealer's 5 up card, half drunk and on god knows whatever else.
So the whole "OH NOES, WE WILL RUINS IT FORZ ALLZZZZZ" thought is misplaced.
Spread away gizmo, spread away. :thumbsup:
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Aug 08, 02:41 PM 2018
I wouldn’t spend more then $30 on any strategy
And that’s only if I’m bored
I would.
This will make you throw up a little in your mouth RG, but if I had the entry fee I'd pay Jun's price for admission, which was oh about 175x higher than $30. Or David's for that matter, if he were offering.
With some players you absolutely know and have confirmation that they're playing and winning, and they're driving their primary income from it.
With others, particularly the dedicated "system sellers" you know that either:
1. They DO play their own system, but their system is fallacy-based, and they know it, so they're never going to deploy a life-changing bankroll on it due to the risk.
or,
2. They DON'T play their own system, and they've busted out, and are now looking for system sales to try and rebuild the bankroll.
Gizmo, congratulations on whatever you DO have, as I know you've been playing forever and you've put the work in. Some of your statistical studies are fascinating to go through, so I definitely hope you hit the lotto with a grail, you absolutely deserve it.
Anyone that owns a good consistent system/strategy usually has a good brain to go with in the first place.
Smart people find their ways into beating it and they will keep beating it and milking it in a way that it won't raise any major flags.
Mako, yes if Gizmotron2 really is who he say he is (the real gizmotron) then I wish him all the best as well. He was one the very few out of the box thinkers especially with randomness and cluster analysis together with mxiivv (sth like that), and now you see guys like Nickmsi fooling around with vdw, pigeonhole and FTL. It's refreshing albeit recycled stuff it sparks good stuff for the new generation of roulette players. But some of them need to simplify it, it's often way too overcomplicated.
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 08, 03:56 PM 2018
Anyone that owns a good consistent system/strategy usually has a good brain to go with in the first place.
Smart people find their ways into beating it and they will keep beating it and milking it in a way that it won't raise any major flags.
Ha yes, I don't think any dipshits are breaking the bank at Monte Carlo anytime soon...
I do not understand one thing, if you already have something similar to HG.
Why sell it, for some amount, and not to make a profit in the long term, if you have a group of trusted people and you know it will work in long run, there is no need to separate, you need to create such a group, and I'm not talking about amateurs who are gamblers only those who are able to withstand pressure and gain over the years. Then, for some basic profit, you are able to change nothing almost into a company.
That's why never buy any systems from anyone. People sell them because they need money, simple as that.
Also one plain simple fact is you won't find a real winner on any roulette forums simply because of our human nature.
This has been repeated so many times.. I sound like a bloody tape recorder!
Buying a strategy is pointless.
I saw cosmic results on RX, I even played with these people live, but in the long run everything looked really bad.
It really counts only the long run and the money earned.
Only sharing profit.
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 08, 03:36 PM 2018
You will be surprised that there are plenty of people out there who have a winning consistency. The game won't be removed trust me. I have beaten the game since about 7 or 8 months ago with huge improvements and final tweaks. The game has only one weakness, but everybody uses a different approach to attack it, but the very core remains the same.
I could end Roulette, Baccarat, Blackjack, and Craps right now. All I would have to do is show you, teach you, and answer all your questions. I would then give away my training software as open source. Then I would be right and you would be there trying to come up with an excuse. But That is not going to happen. It makes no sense. The game has one weakness alright. It has human nature.
Gizmo, I am not attacking you. So there is no need to respond to me like that. I've told you already I have already found my way into beating roulette.
Good for you that you've found yours.
Gizmo, I think you are joking, with respect, if you think that you will transform my topic, with your marketing approach, you are in deep shit
You did not get into this topic, you think that writing someone to make some money, and your strategy, is some kind of proof.
It's some joke
you did not contact me with BY PM, but you write about your students.
Show profit, even on roulette simulator or something.
I respect you, but show that you deserve it
Lol so if I show 100 x 37 spins and all end up with profit I can easily sell it for 50000 euro's.
I might do it one of these days to post them up but I won't sell it. Just because I feel like it.
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 08, 05:55 PM 2018
Gizmo, I am not attacking you. So there is no need to respond to me like that. I've told you already I have already found my way into beating roulette.
Good for you that you've found yours.
I'm down with that.
Quote from: ozon on Aug 08, 06:05 PM 2018
Gizmo, I think you are joking, with respect, if you think that you will transform my topic, with your marketing approach, you are in deep shit
You did not get into this topic, you think that writing someone to make some money, and your strategy, is some kind of proof.
It's some joke
you did not contact me with BY PM, but you write about your students.
Show profit, even on roulette simulator or something.
I respect you, but show that you deserve it
Here is what is going on. I started by writing to you. You didn't respond to me. Somebody else did. So I answered back to them. That is what happens on forums. I was hoping you were serious about your proposal. Now it's not that important at all, is it? I have a second student that I'm teaching now. I don't need another one for maybe three weeks and then I might just live with two that know this stuff and that is enough. I know that this section is about things that are for sell. It's not the crime of the century. Go ahead, make your proposal.
I can advertise someone who will want to, if his strategy will work and we will earn money, even if he wants to sell his strategy further.
But I certainly will not be part of promoting something for which I have no proof that it works.
This topic was not created for this.
Quote from: ozon on Apr 23, 04:00 PM 2017This proposition is addressed to players who have some profitable and playable strategies.
I would like to offer my cooperation based on giving you 30% of the future profits of your strategy to the end of my life.
If you are looking for a discreet person who can give you passive income for many years I would like to offer.
This proposal is 100% serious and thoughtful, if you want to know more about me, write and I give details.
That's me. I have a problem with a promise to getting paid though. There is always negotiating the end of your life though. That's interesting. I hope you find someone. I'll clear out of your scene now.
I am not a person who will pay for something unproven in advance.
I treat it as a business, I am able to pay everyone for profits.
My life is not about roulette, I have a lot of time because I do the same on forex, I give away 30% of the profits that govern my money.
I am always looking for opportunities to profit. This topic was created for people who are serious about the matter.
You will really attack me.
WHAT has happened to your previous schools in the past?
gizmo....draft up a legit contract if he is serious
but I do not think he is in the US so I would not risk it
A contract in the world of gamblers does not mean anything.
Everything is based on trust and respect, I'm not trying to deceive anyone and earn on it, it's about creating a group that will resist it.
As I wrote, I'm doing everything for money, I would even be able to give the source of forex copy signals on which I earn money myself, but I do not have a business interest in it
So many sellers >:D
Passion, you PMed :question:
Sneaky and desperate. PassionRuleta.
I sense who the clowns are the second they join and post.
Passionruleta and Andre stuck out like a sore thumb
I don’t understand how people are so naive
I’ll stick to my stupid systems thank you very much
Goldrosen is another but he stopped posting
hey gizmo taking any more students........how about a canadian eh?
Quote from: keepontryin on Aug 09, 09:00 AM 2018
hey gizmo taking any more students........how about a canadian eh?
Yes, Canada is open. People are really going to scratch their heads on this logic. I'm in Australia, Midwest America, and the far West of America. That leaves East coast America, Germany , Great Britain, and yes, Canada. I will be busy with my second student for three weeks. If you want in, then PM me and I will set up email with you. I'm having so much fun teaching this that I won't bother writing a book. That was my brother's idea anyway. So there needs to be a person from Macao area too. I want each player to have their own corner of the world.
How about a french canadian?
O0
Quote from: Bigbroben on Aug 09, 09:45 AM 2018
How about a french canadian?
O0
You mean split Canada in half? Why not. I better put a limit on this. It's one student at a time. It's spread out real well. I'm doing this because I have heart failure and it's very slowly getting worse. I want this out there but in a controlled way that is fair for each student. It will be a test of human nature. Who will blow it first. It makes the story real good. Somebody else can write the book.
I do not have time right now anyways, perhaps in Fall or Winter when harvests are done.
We'll see!
Here is my software with the new upgrades and features for teaching and practice:
Here is my software with the new upgrades and features for teaching and practice:
Winning session, on a program written by you.
Show Long run on an independent source spins like this site.
You can even register there and show us how to get 1st place.
Everything for free
link:s://roulette-simulator.info/online-roulette-game/
But if you want some money in advance, I want proof of profit in the long run
Quote from: ozon on Aug 12, 03:13 PM 2018
Winning session, on a program written by you.
Show Long run on an independent source spins like this site.
You can even register there and show us how to get 1st place.
Everything for free
But if you want some money in advance, I want proof of profit in the long run
My program is nothing more than a charting tool that won't produce a result unless you select the next bet to win first. I started with it to improve myself. I don't have time or the risk of playing free games at a site that probably optimizes itself in order to draw traffic.
Here is what is happening. I'm asking my students to keep a practice log so that they can see themselves improving. But my student did those 9 lost session versus 43 won sessions right in front of me during teaching.
I don't need you as a student. I'm not going to be teaching this very long. I will take people until this is saturated around the world with one player from each region with the method. Then the real test will happen. How many years will it take before it all leaks out.
I am not trying to be your student.
You started advertising in my topic.
I will not allow you to promote something not tested, where it should not be.
I wants to warn people more about buying something without any evidence.
On the forums you can tell what you want, that your strategy is HG, but in reality where there is evidence?
So did you find someone for your proposal?
I responded to your request, where I got crickets from you. Someone else started talking to me. And here we are. So you are the commander of the forum? You are not going to allow this to happen. You demand proof. Why would anyone want to answer your proposal. I get it. You would be happy to pay next Tuesday for a hamburger today.
I do not want to get involved in any attacks.
Everything I talk about with people I write to me remains only between us.
But you really want to attack me, the previous school was also supposed to teach HG also. What happened to the previous HG you've been promoting for years.
You will describe what happened with school, probably also charged, and where are satisfied customers?
Quote from: ozon on Aug 12, 04:04 PM 2018
I do not want to get involved in any attacks.
Everything I talk about with people I write to me remains only between us.
But you really want to attack me, the previous school was also supposed to teach HG also. What happened to the previous HG you've been promoting for years.
You will describe what happened with school, probably also charged, and where are satisfied customers?
I see it that it is you attacking me. So why don't we both cool off?
The past school taught the students how to read randomness the way that I do with noticeable characteristics. It also taught the basic strategy of being aware of the conditions. It showed how to see opportunities in the charts. All that is the same, and yes, that method of going after huge win streaks using 24-26 numbers at a time was what was not so good. Anyone can still make it work. But I changed my win goal and the number of numbers used in a bet. And that made all the difference. I don't care about those that don't get this. I only care for those that get taught and that can prove to me that they in fact have it and can succeed at it. This is just better. And I'm charging ten times as much for a person to be taught one on one, one student at a time. And I'm earning every penny of it too.
The whole time is marketing shit.
I can not hear it anymore, now the version that the students were bad and did not want to learn. And 1on1 lessons cost 10 x more because they are for elite students. Old version was no good but this one better.
Where are the proofs, any profits of this strategy in the long run?
To be fair you are losing a bit of credibility. You are coming across quite pushy with your global effect, schools, students, HG, killing all casino's et al.
Isn't it better to start your own thread when you want to sell your teachings, beliefs and strategy (that you don't want to reveal nor hints given).
Quote from: junscissorhands on Aug 12, 05:24 PM 2018
To be fair you are losing a bit of credibility.
Never had credibility with me
All we have are his words and stories of students success
Anyone can write those things. Not impressed at all
Long forums posts and sounding “smart†don’t do it for me. Not sharing anything means that for all we know he has nothing
Lots of clowns on these boards
I’ll stick to my double street methods.
(link:s://giffiles.alphacoders.com/101/10195.gif)
Attempting to "read randomness" is like looking for patterns in the clouds, and both are just as useless when playing roulette.
I've got a dollar that says that RouletteGhost's system can handily beat Gizmo's.
Thanks for the endorsement Snowman. I can always use a disparaging comment from you. If you don't like it then it for sure has a chance.
More like reading Cauliflowers, Caleb :xd: :xd:
Hi Ozon,
Here a very simple strategy you may test ...that I learned from a member....(with permission)
Double dozen bet.
The progression=1u for 100spins, 2 for next 100, 4 u for next 100spins, stop at profit.
When last =dz1, bet dz1&2,
When last =dz2, bet dz2&3,
When last=dz3, bet dz3&1,
When zero hit, disregard, and take previous last as indicator.
Virtual bet till negative -20u in first 50spins, then bet with the said progression, till 300th spin...or profit.
Cut loss at -20u.
Seeet, thanks for sharing a method
It’s a relief
Everyone wants to goto PM or pretend they have something but won’t share it (we know they are lying)
Thanks!
Quote from: The General on Aug 12, 06:53 PM 2018
Attempting to "read randomness" is like looking for patterns in the clouds, and both are just as useless when playing roulette.
I've got a dollar that says that RouletteGhost's system can handily beat Gizmo's.
I just got done with another two and one half hour training session with student #1. It's starting to get to a point that standard deviation won't allow it to recover to the expectation of a session ratio of 2.33 to 1. He starts each day now by doing 10 sessions in front of me while we also discuss what the statistics of what he is doing means in terms of ratios. While he is doing that I wrote a sim that just blindly bets on Red only on the single zero wheel. After 100,000 sessions run it determined that with the zero the win loss ratio for sessions won or lost was 1.8 to 1. I took the zero out and ran it again. This time it came out at 2.33 to 1.
That is the exact number my method needs to break even. Now my method includes the zero and it needs to balance at 2.33 to 1 in order to break even. But the House edge comes out to 1.8 to 1 in power testing the large number value. So in reality, my method must beat 1.8 to 1 to prove it's better than the statistical large number average.
Today student #1 had 9 wins and 1 loss today. So now the testing is up to 52 wins and 10 losses for a session's lost or won ratio of 5.2 to 1. Now this is not some mechanical system testing. The student is running real challenges to beat randomness by reading it and guessing. There is no prediction being used either.
You guys will have to grasp onto the last possible explanation here and that is that it's a wild lucky streak. So start pilling on about how this is just a small sample and that it proves nothing. I can wipe out everything with this knowledge. I can make you skeptics eat crow. But my plan is to get a small army around the world to make that happen. I don't want anything from them either. They are free to go get what they can for as long as they can and keep it all for themselves. This is certainly better than what Ed Thorp did to Blackjack. He was a total blabbermouth. Let's hear it Dr., General, Xander, Snowman, Caleb, etc...