I wanted to start a discussion on a way i discovered how to recognize if the random numbers are falling in a truely random order. And, sequences that you will always see in a random stream. How you can use this to your advantage. This will take some time to explain. I am not so conceited to think you will stop what you are doing to learn this, but hope you will consider what i write. This will take patience, but it is simple to track with pencil and paper. More in a bit.
Chance
Very few things are random. Most rngs are really prngs even rolling dice is now obsolete thanks to the combined effort of two universities. Most rngs use methods of things like time between key strokes x 1000 to come up with a number added to some seed. But, what about craps, cards, and my favorite roulette. Lets first look at what is required to make a random number random. There are really three things in my book. Unpredictability of the following number. Even spread of the numbers (yes i know about the law of the 3rd). The numbers must land in a non sequential pattern (random numbers must land in a random fashion within the random stream). This last item is what we can exploit to our advantage, but to do this we have to look at the first 2 items. I know your saying cut to the chase but please bear with me..........more in a bit
Random numbers have to have an equal spread (yes, i know this is so basic for most everyone). In six rolles if a dice the numbers 1 through 6 should land equally, But the next item is why they don't and we have things like the law of the 3rd and other things. The next says that for every n samples (spins, tosses, cards played) an exponent will be a double, an eponent of that will be a triple and so on.
Etc
....
These runs or series make a stream random, and can be played to your advantage, but like i found out the hard way many years ago, they are not enough by themselves. I wanted to spot if a dice was loaded, wheel was biased or the person spinning was locked into a rhythm that could be seen easily, but there was no short term ranom test. Here is what i mean by the random numbers have to happen randomly. That sounds like a oxymoron at best. Lets take a dice roll of.
3
2
5
4
3
1
2
3
1
5
5
4
3
Although this appears random it is so much not so that the next roll is obvious, if the sequence keeps repeating......care to guess?
This suddenly sparked my curiosity.
Just dont ask me why :)
Drazen,
Thanks for dropping in. Yes to me this is a fascinating topic and it has a lot of potential not just in gambling.
#1
I understan why you said 1 nottophammer. Let me throw another set at you and i will explain this step by step. Remember we are trying to get: what side of a die is heavier, what pocket or pockets of the wheel has a bias, what cards tend to come up, or if the person has a rhythm going that we can exploit. Here is a harder set of numbers.
5
3
2
4
1
6
2
4
2
4
3
1
4
3
1
At first glance our mind works out that there is a pattern, but who knows what it is. So we run an algorithm , (its simple) i say simple not that you cant handle difficult but at a table you can't divert your attention writing while paying a fast game. After the alg the numbers above turn into.
3
3
5
5
2
2
4
4
1
So what is the next number in the pattern? Obvios if it continues a 1.
Explanation...
Before i go any further, questions? I know this is very basic. But, this is the first generation i came up with about 20 years ago......once again your a patient lot.
Chance
5 was the first thrown 1 was the last. Btw i do not play craps, only roulette, to adapt this to roulette divide the wheel in 4 sections. There is a better way I'll explain latter. For now this simple example using 1 dice.
You are looking for the first repeat. So you are looking at 532416 no repeats so far but the next one is a 2. First repeat is a 2 beside it you mark the position of its position which is a 3 and cross that off so your sheet looks like this
5
3
2 x
4
1
6
2 3
Next you add your new number, you have already cheked off the 2, next on the list is the 4. The 4 is above the 2 so mark it off and beside the 4 place the position.
5
3
2 x
4 x
1
6
2 3
4 3
Then add the next number. Place your x and its poition.
5
3
2 x
4 x
1
6
2 x 3
4 3
2 5
Continue this with all the rest till you have
5 x
3 x
2 x
4 x
1 x
6
2 x 3
4 x 3
2 5
4 x 5
3 x 2
1 2
4 4
3 4
1 1
So now we will either bet the series will continue or bust. Let's say we know the die will continue and expect the next sieries in our alg will be a 1. To work backward is easy just look at the first number that does nit have an x...which is a 6....
Questions so far?
Actually a real die would not give you a sieries like this if it were out of ballance or a wheel. I'll give real examples to help you turn this into a working method of play to assist your game.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 04, 05:58 PM 2017Then add the next number. Place your x and its poition.
5
3
2 x
4 x
1
6
2 x 3
4 3.............why 3
2 5 ...................why 5 ?
I do not understand the numbers you write next .
Thanks for sharing but the problem with this approach is you can never know WHICH numbers will be repeats, sleepers or whatever.
Its the same kind of problem with law of a third. You might know almost always 1/3rd of numbers will be repeated in 37 spins. But you dont know which numbers with any better than 1 in 37 accuracy.
It's like saying that over 1,000 spins there will be roughly an even spread between red and black. If you wait for an imbalance of say 50 red and 20 black, then what if the last 1000 spins were 600 black and 400 red? But either way, the imbalance tells us nothing, except for the possibility of bias (but that's another matter).
Dont get me wrong. I agree with parts you said. RNG is definitely not random. Nothing is ever random. I DO believe it is possible to predict RNG one way or another, but it cant be done with methods like law of a third.
Ages ago I had software created that automatically checked for discrepancies in spins. Basically to highlight anything that was not expected for truly "random" spins. It looked at things like:
1. If red won for 10 times in a row, what are the odds that red or black spin next
2. If a number repeated in the last 1,2,3,4,5 etc spins, what are the chances that it will spin again in the next 1,2,3,4,5 etc spins.
The program does just basic checks, but over a large scale. What I ultimately found was:
1. There are indeed patterns in RNG that are predictable. But they are predictable in the long term. I could not find any way to change the odds on the next spin, OR any group of spins.
I havent had time to fully understand what I found. But others find much the same thing. Here is an example:
2. The patterns that I found could be used existed only in real spins, and only when I had specific data included with it (not just last winning numbers)
Can can we beat RNG? I think so yes, but it cant be done with methods like law of a third - at least in the manner most players try to use it.
Quote from: plolp on Jun 04, 06:45 PM 2017
I do not understand the numbers you write next .
I'm with plop, unsure, but always worth a look
And something else..
The static on an old TV set is the kind of "random" used by a regulated online casino. The kind of "random" used by random.org.
But the static on a tv set is not random. And if you film and process video, looking at key frames with particular intervals, you see fractals everywhere.
I have no doubt that the real key to "predicting random" is fractals.
Any advantage player would say it's all "cause and effect". Yes that's right. But a fractal is also cause and effect.
Again I haven't had time to pursue it further. My focus is on more traditional approaches, but also incorporating a similar "pattern/anomaly-finding" algorithm for real wheels.
My gut feeling with the RNG fractal stuff is you will probably only be able to marginally reduce the casino's edge against you, but not overcome it and get a positive edge.
I understand fractals Steve and how they apply, but by themselves i think will lead to failure. True it is so so much more than repeats runs, sleepers, and hot numbers. Mt best success has been with quickly identifying, sequences, and biases. The odds of a fractal happening is exactly equal to the sum of the smaller fractal that have happened its a 50 50 shot. By themselves i can't see success.
Any short-term pattern is just a piece of a fractal. A fractal is the bigger picture. So they are the same thing in different scales.
So if you found short term patterns, a fractal would be a visual chart of the same thing happening on a larger scale.
Are you able to give larger volumes of examples of patterns you see? Or a particular algorithm we can test? Unless we have a specific set of rules that define a pattern, we dont know the logic to look at.
Chance, this topic is very interesting.
Please continue, and while doing so if you could answer plolp's question from post #10 (explain), because I am also confused how you obtained those numbers.
Thank you
The proof of randomness are fractals, bias distorts fractals, that has been my study. Long range, yes i have programs on this....not for sale, but anyone can come to the same conclusions and exploit what i have done.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 04, 10:11 PM 2017bias distorts fractals
With typical recursive fractals, yes. I wasn't referring to bias. On that note I'm sure if you correlated all factors that contributed to bias and put it into a multi-dimensional model that it would still just be a fractal, if not at least a part of a fractal. In fact you could say our universe is a fractal.
Please let us know more about what you've found. It might help to publish images to help everyone follow.
Quote from: Steve on Jun 04, 07:25 PM 2017
I have no doubt that the real key to "predicting random" is fractals.
In the video, the big fractal triangle is pointing up(direction), the smaller black triangles are pointing down(pullbacks). The apex of the larger opposite triangle is where the edge lies.
Quote from: cht on Jun 04, 10:40 PM 2017
In the video, the big fractal triangle is pointing up(direction), the smaller black triangles are pointing down(pullbacks). The apex of the larger opposite triangle is where the edge lies.
With roulette it's more trendy, whereas with bacs it's more rangy. The challenge is to represent this info in a chart that's properly calibrated that will consistently reveal this fractal nature. Btw I prefer bacs because the deviation is more bounded.
Nice post Chance, I enjoy random talk :thumbsup:
So your saying that because of the positions where they landed before the repeat, can reveal another bias?
Can you give another example please?
Ok you have attention but can you give examples and algorithms?
Quote from: Drazen on Jun 04, 02:45 PM 2017Just dont ask me why :)
lol...well I know what you infer if no one else did.
It has to be doesnt it? :yawn:
Quote
It has to be doesnt it? :yawn:
I have seen enough to believe it has to be something.
On one side great patience has been asked. On other side I dont expect winning method here step by step.
So let see what lands in between here for each of us.
Cheers mate
Drazen, you got that one right. This will take patience to learn, it is a dance with numbers. If it were a program i would of said that from the begining. From the start i said it would require patience. i doubt a program will ever be made. The only program i have is one that does the alg i mentioned several posts back. i have other personal ones that tell me percentages of how to bet based on fractals that have happened and should happen. Steve, so true (i called this something ele but we can use the word fractals) everything is a fractal, you should even plot your frequency of wins and losses. You have to make many charts on paper and mentally when you play. If you like we can continue?
sounds like the new falcor, empty promises and nothing real, no practical advice how to play, just gibberish, but no good gambler want to give away his secret?...
might like this onelink:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=droTYSmSGHg (link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=droTYSmSGHg)
This video is a little more detailed for those that dont understand link:s://:.youtube.com/watch?v=kbKtFN71Lfs&t=11s
Im actually surprised to see steve entertaining this topic. I look forward to seeing your input on this also
Chance, Pen and paper ready, im sure i speak for all those interested O0
Quote from: ignatus on Jun 05, 10:07 AM 2017
sounds like the new falcor, empty promises and nothing real, no practical advice how to play, just gibberish, but no good gambler want to give away his secret?...
Pssst. Please, silence in the clasroom mr. Ignatus! :-X
Chance, before the discussion about fractals, you stated
Quote from: Chance on Jun 04, 05:58 PM 2017
I'll give real examples to help you turn this into a working method of play to assist your game.
Because you are using numbers 1 to 6 on a dice as an example, to use a similar idea in roulette I think you are using Lines (double streets).
But i am guessing it could be used for any group of 6 numbers (ie double streets, wheel divided into 6 separate sections, etc).
Here are recent live dealer spins (single 0 wheel) from a brick & mortar casino, separated by dealer and showing the number spun and the line for that number
Number Line(Double Street)
--------------------------- Dealer A
27 5
28 5
31 6
0 0
6 1
23 4
21 4
23 4
32 6
15 3
--------------------------- Dealer B
27 5
32 6
1 1
29 5
1 1
9 2
7 2
36 6
34 6
--------------------------- Dealer A (returned after break)
13 3
26 5
5 1
13 3
4 1
8 2
17 3
21 4
5 1
4 1
29 5
17 3
21 4
29 5
16 3
20 4
18 3
8 2
22 4
7 2
--------------------------- Dealer B (returned after break)
36 6
31 6
10 2
17 3
18 3
7 2
31 6
5 1
2 1
31 6
Do you see a pattern here that we could use to assist us. Thanks.
Hello stringbeanpc,
Thought i would handle this first. Let me say a few things from these numbers we'll see if i get it right. These were from a live roulette table (actually i think you mentioned that so no big guess here, but i have played at wheels where they were manned taking bets, but it was a mechanical wheel). It could of been a game you played but it is long so you probably were just skimming numbers, the entropy changed considerably at the end of the list so if you were playing you headed for trouble around spin 30. 4 people working the wheel, the first person and second have worked at the casino the longest, the 3rd 1-2 year experience, the fourth a beginner. After running the alg mentioned several post back there is a high number of repeats, much higher than a normal curve (fractal) should be so you could of cashed in if you would of left early say the first 25 spins. The last half of the game was very random but you could of wadded it out by playing more than on graph. I usually limit my games to around 20 spins. Always play green. Next let's get to the real examples.
Chance
I divided the wheel 3 diferent ways to tell you......my "guess"
Chance, I look forward to your examples
My numbers above were from a small casino with only 1 roulette wheel.
There were only 2 dealers A & B (not four dealers), who were just alternating back and forth, while one was working,
the other was on their break. Both dealers were short females. I tend to notice a difference if
the dealer is short and can barely reach the wheel versus a taller dealer.
I do not understand what you mean by entropy.
link:://:.dictionary.com/browse/entropy?s=t
link:s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(disambiguation)
Very astute observation of the playing conditions by you. Congratulations !!
I was playing for "hot" sections of the wheel (not the layout), yes it was easier in the beginning,
but around. Around Spin 37 it started to become difficult,but the very last spin won (31).
I was playing 14,31,9,22,18,19, Hit my target so I stopped playing.
Exactly how did you divide the wheel in 3 different ways ?
I'll write more in a bit but for now, entropy is just a fancy name that with random numbers refers to if the stream is random or not. I have to admit the more i study the more the science seems to be riddled with paradoxes and things that just dont make since or you can't have it both ways.....i.e. how can you say there is always 50/50 chance yet put limits on odds referencing the number of atoms in the universe.
I have only played the 00 wheel, and only play "plein", if you play street, columns red black or hybrid you should be able to adapt what i say. I divide the wheel into 4 sections, of 9 numbers in each section. I'm not a purist so you could make your own divisions, and cw or cc. I start at 0 or 00 and skip every 4th. Label them sec 1-4 . The other way is according to the actual wheel layout 9 numbers then the next 9 then the next.....etc. the other takes incredible practice but wherever the ball lands is section one 4 slots to the left and 4 to the right, the ball is the middle of sec 1. Then you see which section the ball lands in. That is really not worth it i plotted that to death without success. I was using it trying to clock the croupier but abandond the idea. The other way was every 4th number but always arranged from large to small not actual wheel layout. This last is the way i play simply for speed in placing bets. I played in oklahoma once, they do not allow a live wheel so they adapted a deck of playing cards, with a .50cent ante each play. i knew i had a chance and walked away nicely. I'll use those numbers in my next example as i explain what i played and why. It is very dynamic with changes per spin (in this case cards played) so warning this is not a method where you always play a certain number or set of numbers. I'll go over again how to graph the numbers that show.....more later.
Chance
Quote from: Chance on Jun 04, 05:58 PM 20175 x
3 x
2 x
4 x
1 x
6
2 x 3
4 x 3
2 5
4 x 5
3 x 2
1 2
4 4
3 4
1 1
So now we will either bet the series will continue or bust. Let's say we know the die will continue and expect the next sieries in our alg will be a 1. To work backward is easy just look at the first number that does nit have an x...which is a 6....
Can you answer this question?
Why the number 5 has a cross? is it a mistake ?
It only came out once .
5 has an x as a way i mark them I'll get to that again in the next post.
I'll try to explain the way to chart the numbers as they show, once again what works for me as far as ease and speed of writting may not work for you so pick what your comfortable with. Here is the way i divide a 00 wheel...ultimately we may disagree if this is the best layout, but if you have never played fractals, it will help your game. Most know they are there, which is undeniable thanks to mendelbrot. The problem has been and alway is how to turn math into an applied game. This method helped me working with ciphers, frequency, etc....as a hobby. But i soon saw it had other applications. Remember this shows if the next number in a random stream is placed in a random order. You can divide anything either by whole numbers or logs. But we will divide a roulette wheel into 4 sections of 9 numbers each 0 and 00 at the end.
1,3,2,1,4,3 singles happen at a probable rate of
2,2,1,3,2 this contains 1 double
4 4,4,2,1 4 this contains a triple (see below) and here is why, lets take one binary digit called a bit of 0 or a 1 and see how often a single happens, binary is minimalistic so well count to 15 with 0
0000 0
0001 1
0010 2
0011 3
0100 4
0101 5
0110 6
0111 7
1000 8
1001 9
1010 10
1011 11
1100 12
1101 13
1110 14
1111 15
Next we put it in a stream.
0000000100100011010001010110011110001001101010111100110111101111
Now count how often singles happen and divide that by 64 (16x4) of you want the odds.
1's happen 20 times in the above example
2's 9 times
3's 5 times
6's not enough samples to do 6's but we see a trend, powers of 2 or each number below is half the number above. If you are working with dice its powers of 6. Since we are dividing a roulette table in 4ths we will use powers of 4. Long explanation sorry. And yes i know you seasoned players are bored to death.
So singles and runs should happen at these intervals any thing else is an anomaly or a permanent bias (like in card roulette, and older mechanical roulette wheels)
2s 1 every 16 spins 4^2
3s 1 every 64 spins 4^3
4s 1 every 256 spins 4^4
This is the foundation of random number fractals as applied to gambling.
Here is how i divide the wheel.
27
10
25
29 sec 1
12
8
19
31
18
------
21
33
16
4
23 sec 2
35
14
2
------
28
9
26
30
11 sec 3
7
20
32
17
-----
5
22
34
15
3 sec 4
24
36
13
1
-------
0
00
Mumbo jumbo must be luving this, a bit chaotic
Interesting continue pls
Certainly not trying to offend anyone with this mumbo jumbo, not trying to bully my way in here, be glad to stop.
no carry on just having a laugh with MJ
No problem, you got to make it fun.....even though this part is boring.
If i was going to condition a stream so i could graph numbers i would take 1-36 split them in sectors. The sectors should not only be random but their placement random and they should have the correct number of runs by the calc in the previos post. (That is why i included so much mumbo jumbo) so you have the sector stream something like this.
1
4
3
2
3
3
4
1
2
1
3
Now we check if they follow a random frequency.
1
4
3 x
2
3 3
3
4
1
2
1
3
The second repeated number is a three the first three happens in the 3rd position so we place an x there.
1
4
3 x
2
3 x 3
3 4
4
1
2
1
3
The next number above is another three so we place an x and note its position.....and do the rest for the other numbers.
1 x
4 x
3 x
2 x
3 x 3
3 x 4
4 2
1 x 1
2 1
1 3
3
If we did 20 numbers in our head trying to make them random and compared them with 10 other list that we pulled off of rand.com our list would stick out like a sore thumb because we are horrible at producing random streams. Not to jump track, but this in my searcing the only alg for testing if a number is random. Now you do this same alg with a stream from a luve casino......ill do this in my next post, if I'm not boring you all to much.
Chance
May I ask something simple what might be question for many others after all this?
So after entering a casino first we want to establish that we are dealing with true randomness (that wheel doesnt have a bias for example * - although in this case it is amazing in which number of spins we should be able to do that comparing to how many physics bias guys have to do) and after that we can be certain that we can beat it because of that? :)
I hope I got that right?
Cheers
Quote from: Chance on Jun 06, 04:17 PM 2017
if I'm not boring you all to much.
Please continue with your explanations, you are NOT boring us
Yes you got that right.
Brilliant!
Please continue and although this is obviously Phd level of science, you are great in managing it to explain in simple way with practical examples.
I agree :thumbsup:
So this can also help with random streams like rng which arent truly random hmmm
Chance very interesting, please continue O0
Visiting a card roulette table i saw these numbers and chuckled. The dealer asked me how i was doing what i was doing, i laughed again (sure i could explain it in 3 minutes)
20
12
17
8
32
11
33
33
35
14
32
9
16
25
7
28
23
24
00
12
20
33
22
They look entirely random right.......here is what they actually look after the alg.
1
1
1
2
3
3
3
2
3
2
1
1
3
1
1
1
1
1
It does not take a rocket scientist to be able to guess how to play these "random numbers". Now, the obvious question is, "well, they're not all that simple so what do you do"? Find the ones that are, and if they are not learn the rhythm. Everything has a rythm. Not to get destracted but as a hobby i even applied this to the rock distribution from photos sent back from mars by Curiosity to find ancient river anomalies. But its more than sequences like the ones above.
Does the algorithm give this?
1 x
1 x 1
1 x 1
2 x 2
3 x 3
3 x 3
3 x 3
2 x 2
3 x 2
2 2
1 x 1
1 x 3
3 1
1 x 2
1 x 3
1 x 3
1 x 3
1 3
20 3x
12 1x
17 3x1
8 1x1
32 3x1
11 3x2
33 2x
33 2x3
35 2x3
14 2x3
32 3x2
9 3x3
16 2x2
25 1x1
7 3x1
28 3x3
23 2x1
24 4
00 always win on green
12 1 1
20 3 1
33 2 1
22 4 1
Next, How to start the game. Its the most risky part.
Let me explain 3 things quickly before we get into an actual game. Once you begin to understand about fractals you see how primordial they are, affecting everything. This is the problem why they have not received attention, people do not know how to work with something so large. Case in point rngs. Rngs still use seeds, and cosmic noise from gamma radiation, static or unrelated sources. Why, because it is not understood. If you can graph a random stream then you can also make a random stream that follows the rules of fractals, but i have yet to see one. They are easy to do.
Zooming in and out. What we have discussed so far is zoomed all the way in, seeing groups or, wow look at all those repeats so lets bet on repeats.......fail, unless you are playing on an etreemly biased machine, and they are hard to find. Take the sections of the last post.
3
1
3
1
3
3
2
2
2
2
3
3
2
1
3
Now just the conditioned stream
1
1
1
2
3
3
3
2
3
2
1
1
3
1
1
1
1
1
If we zoom out we see not only are there large groups of 1s and 3s (something that should only happen at set intervals of 4^n ) look also at what numbers follow what numbers are followed by what numbers and zoom out and see what groups are followed by what groups for instance(zoom out just a bir) a 3 should be followed by a 1,2,3 and 4 equally all the time a group of three 4s should be followed a sinlgle 4 times (ok its not quite 4 times exactly because of the 0 and 00) as often as double and a double four times as often as a triple a triple four times as oftem as a quad etc. But, don't get stuck looking at only runs, they are not any more special than the number 1,4 3,4 (zoom out a bit) look back on your sheet and see the what was the numbers that showed after the last time you saw a 1,4,3,4 the last time should of been a 1,2,3,4 equally. If you are playing a really random wheel and see a that for the last 7 groupings a 1,2 is always followed by a 1 start placing small wagers at first against that sequence from continuing. I have come up with a way of producing a number that tells me how far "out of random" a wheel is. This is important to justify bet placement, and crucial in mapping other areas of randomness or pseudo random ness.
How to place bets with the active stream.
20 3
12 1
17 3
8 1
32 3
11 3
33 2
33 2
Let say i jump in here on a no brainer wheel that i know will repeat a conditioned stream (zoomed all the way in)with regularity way above normal odds. So i want to place a bet that sec 2 wii repeat. Tell me what 9 numbers i should bet on? (Sorry for this infantile test/question but i want to see if your understanding what i have written so far.
21
33
16
4
23 sec 2
35
14
2
and 6 (without knowing the 00 wheel)
why you would bet on that? i dont understand this post :S pls help
Be sure to run the alg first.
20 3 x
12 1 x
17 3 x 1
8 1 1
32 3 x 1
11 3 2
33 2 x
33 2 3
So we are really expecting the 3rd position to coninue which in this case is sector 2. The position is not always the same as the sector. The numbers for sector 2 are....i usually use
12
14
16
18
20
30
32
34
36
0
00
I think i said the sectors wrong.....anyway here is the actual sheet from the game.
Big tip.
Remember when you play.....set in your mind how much you are going to play with, leave all cards and wallet in the car or at home. Set your limit. And, most importantly when you sit down to play convince yourself you are playing with numbers. Just numbers. If it is no longer a gam e or numbers, do not play.
Questions so far, or is this basic to most?
Quote from: Chance on Jun 07, 10:46 AM 2017(Sorry for this infantile test/question but i want to see if your understanding what i have written so far.
I do not believe you. You never answer questions.
There's a lot of error in what you're saying.
You have to reread before posting .
Sorry, i missed your question, can you tell me again?
AegonTheHandsome, sorry skipped your question tried to answer in the next three posts. Is it clear or need to go over it again. I was betting on that the wheel was going to repeat because i saw it had a fatal flaw the day before. The numbers looked random but they were not landing in a random order, when i ran the alg it was obvious, but only after the alg was ran could i really make out their pattern/sequence. Sorry for not catching your question.
Remember the page 1 dice example, ill use this to say what i would bet next.
5
3
2
4
1
6
2
4
2
4
3
1
4
3
5
Run the alg
5x
3x
2x
4x
1x
6
2x3
4x3
2 5
4x5
3x2
1 2
4 4
3 4
5 1
Now if we bet this will continue with the numbers of the alg we would bet on a 1, we look for the first position without an x and see to the left is a 6 so we bet on a 6.
Chance can you please give one quick example with Euro wheel and its sectors and how would you play one set of spins there? I think most of us would play that one. I am a bit lost with the ones on US wheel :question:
Just to get a better understanding.
Thanks in advance
Drazen
Sure will, give me a bit.
First split the wheel into 4 sections like this.
12
14
16
18
21
23
32
34
36
------
2
6
10
11
15
29
31
33
35
------
1
3
5
7
9
19
25
27
30
------
4
8
13
17
20
22
24
26
28
------
0
Next someone make up some numbers and we will graph them as if they are actually happening.
Here are some numbers from a live roulette (european)
24
28
20
31
30
19
22
14
2
20
25
2
24
14
27
30
14
36
8
25
9
23
25
17
29
22
10
1
25
2
5
30
34
34
13
22
6
24
27
Hello Chance thanks for taking the time to explain :d
I think I understand the dice example (in terms of an American Roulette Wheel)
L1-6, L7-12, L13-18, L19-24, L25-30, L31-36
12,36,1,23,30,15 (all lines have shown at this point)
6,31,4,20,27,9 (newest spin-value)*Second list*
Bet three units on all natural lines except L13-18 once (which has not shown in the second list)
& 1 chip on 0 & 00 each
Win +1, Loss -20 units
Just a sec proofreaders2000 let me get to AegonTheHandsome,
From the stream you gave me.
Step 1
# sec alg
24 4 x
28 4 1
Step 2
# sec alg
24 4 x
28 4 1
10 2 x
31 2 2
Step 3
# sec alg
24 4 x
28 4 1
10 2 x
31 2 2
30 3 x
19 3 3
Step 4
# sec alg
24 4 x
28 4 x 1
10 2 x
31 2 2
30 3 x
19 3 3
22 4 1
Etc...
Proofreaders2000,
Yes i think that is the jist, its weird translating the dice to roulette lines. See if the previous post explains better. I will say the prev post is very random. I would probably go to another table, or use the math highly and guess fractals, the ones that have shown runs and groupings. Sleepers hot numbers are nothing more than fractals, the anomolies over time will correct themselves. When you write the list from the prev post you not only look to see runs but, what numbers are followed by what numbers, how long are the runs, what numbers lead into and out of the runs, frequency and spacing of 1s 2s 3s 4s , you had a run of 4 4s last a run of 3 4s before that and 2 4s before that now you just hit a 4 will it repeat or turn into a single....odds are high it will be a single low it will be a higher run, repeat numbers and 0 and 00 are all calculated with freq. You have to keep all these graphs active in your mind when you play. There are others i play also, for instance you can make tic marks on your sheet by your winning numbers which are fractals also......more later of actual play by play games.
Just wanted to give a small test, and the test also proves a good point about rngs, seeds......so archaic. This rng is from a well known site i will not say which one. I asked for a certain number of randoms. Well, up untill now we could not test randomness easily. They fail horribly.
Who wants to run these numbers with the alg. It is a short run but the absurdity goes on and on so i stopped it short. Don't forget we are testing if the random numbers are placed in a random order.....so is it possible this rng is used in online casinos, or worse as seeds for secure fobs, or encryption. Please no!
2
4
2
0
1
2
3
1
4
3
1
0
4
1
3
0
2
4
1
3
0
2
4
1
3
1
3
1
3
1
3
1
Please tell me our universities are smarter than this. No im not talking about the run of 1s and 3s at the end. I should publish their site so they would be shamed to change.
Okay sorry for the rant....next real game play
what is so strange about 1 and 3...in any roulette you will see runs of dozens like....1,2,1,2,3,3,1,2,1,2...so what are you telling us this is not random or what...so far we have not seen any example with roulette numbers and why what and when bets are placed....and most important thing i think is when you pace bets do you hope for something to happen or it must happen...because if you go to first one your fractals are not any better than probability pulling next random number and therefore impacting your so called algorithm
Maestro, sorry if the last post bothered you I was not trying to do that. I am moving slow because i am trying to prove a point and teach how to play by fractals, biased rngs, and frequencies. Most people look at the stream in the previous post and see 4 numbers there are 5, big deal, no it changes the math and play it can make you lose or win. Most will see the stream and think so what there is a long stream of 1s and 3s they dont see the biggest problem. It is not a random stream and why! The alg they use is flawed that gave me the supposedly random numbers! Im trying to get people to understand why, exploit it to give you an advantage when you play. I have other alg but this first one so stupidly simple can be a big boost to your game. Sorry i am moving too slow my sarcasm was not directed at you. Now, what do you see in the stream of 5 numbers 0-4.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 07, 06:31 PM 2017
First split the wheel into 4 sections like this.
12
14
16
18
21
23
32
34
36
------
2
6
10
11
15
29
31
33
35
------
1
3
5
7
9
19
25
27
30
------
4
8
13
17
20
22
24
26
28
------
0
Next someone make up some numbers and we will graph them as if they are actually happening.
Thanks Chance
Hm.. Interesting how you chose sectors here.
But does it even matter?
Would it be the same if we would take for example 9 number sectors as they are arranged on the wheel?
And as you gave example with dice on the start, would it be the same if we take lines on the carpet?
My algorithm for above questions would gave:
No
Yes
Yes
:)
Correct?
Cheers
Quote from: Chance on Jun 08, 02:20 PM 2017Now, what do you see in the stream of 5 numbers 0-4.
I see the series "41302"
two times in a row .
And "413" three times.
and 9 spins of alternations "1-3"
I split it up like that so each slot left and right of where the ball lands would have a different sector.The way you are talking is better to see if the wheel itself is biased. When pkaying against rngs you do not have to split up the wheel at all.
Run the alg plolp you will laugh. I only included a short run of the overall numbers they gave me, but it is the same with the whole stream. You will se why i was with my mouth open.
1
3
4
2
5
3
1
3
3
1
2
3
2
2
1
2
3
3
1
3
1
3
2
5
5
5
5
5
5 is it correct?
1
2
3
1
3
3
1
2
3
2
2
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
4
4
4
4
4
4
And the rest of the stream is just as bad. See, this is why i am going slow. This is from an actual very well used rng on the web. If you can spot biased machines that appear random you will win at any random game.
I was wrong :twisted:
At least you tried, most would take a look at what i wrote and call me crazy.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 08, 04:11 PM 2017
And the rest of the stream is just as bad. See, this is why i am going slow. This is from an actual very well used rng on the web. If you can spot biased machines that appear random you will win at any random game.
So if you would for example revealed at which casino this rng is used, we could smash it that simple and with what we have by now?
What looks like when your strongest weapon is used...
Yes
Well Chance
I know what I will be doing over weekend.
And this is just the beginning what you started here.
But hm.. I would like to see the catch here :girl_to:
The catch is they are not all this simple. I would not go to the casino yet to bet, if i were you. skim numbers from machines first, roulette, this works with cards, any machine. Stay away from slots, except the ones by the front door. If you find a machine with a bias only play 8 to 12 spins. I use a simple martingale progression. Cash out leave fast, visit again in a couple of days. There is so much more to this, you have not scratched the surface. There are other alg, and how to play a full game. All games have a frequency, everything does, you can profile, and pattern anything.......weather, crime, air accedents. Car collision rates, earthquakes, prime numbers (definately not random)....etc.
Nice.
Just adding a bit more "sense" for now.
Thanks
So this just work for biased machines?
AegonTheHandsome
A very difficult question to answer. The more graphs and different type of alg you can manage the better you can profit. As a wheel or machine moves closer to truely random the more difficult it is to manage. The place where science curently sits there is lots of room for profit presently. I could easily improve a casinos intake with simple training because the people who work there are predictably operating the game. There is lots of room for profit for average people like you and i. Does anyone know if there are any next generation fractal rngs based on laws we have been discussing here?
Okay on to actual games.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 08, 05:37 PM 2017
...play 8 to 12 spins. I use a simple martingale progression.
Interesting thread, but there's a red flag if I've ever seen one. ^-^
Let's play 12 spins > 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048. :o
Actually progression can be a good thing if you are first improving your odds. Whether or not the odds are changing should be the focus.
I will write more in a minute, but this is worth its own post. I will criticize my own method of play, but within this is much room for profit with practice.
The play.
Playing fractals you can only bet on the premise from calculating if the stream is moving away or toward entropy.........order or lack of order.
Quote from: Steve on Jun 09, 06:40 AM 2017Actually progression can be a good thing if you are first improving your odds
You're always sayin this Steve, but throw the dog a bone- tell me how many numbers you bet? :)
Quote from: ignatus on Jun 09, 11:22 AM 2017You're always sayin this Steve, but throw the dog a bone- tell me how many numbers you bet?
Off topic question,
would be polite to discuss in a seperate thread.
Ha ha, when talking fractals everything is relevant. Sorry couldn't resist.
To start the game look back over your last 5 games at that same random device.
Before you have sat down to play, this post assumes you have done your homework to find which machine has the greater bias than the others. Remember it goes from random to bias or so the conditioned stream will have higher than normal sequences if there us a bias.
If you suspect bias run the math first.....First find odds for sequences of 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8 in a row with the game you are charting
4 Sectors used for math below....no i did not adjust for 0 and 00 since i always play green
2s 1:4
3 4^2
Out of 256 spins
192 1s or singles
48 2s or doubles
12 3s
3 4s
Add up your odds it should equal the number of spins. That number is the bias that you use to base your bets
So if you get a
(1) 12s that should happen 1: 4,194,304
( 8 ) 6s. Sixes are 1:1024 for 6 that's or 6,144 spins
(3) 7s. 7s are 1: 4096 for 7 that's 28,672
(30) 2s. 2s are 1:4 thats 120
(55) 1s. I just add them but you should actually multiply the x .75....open for correction on this
Add
4194304+6144+28672+120+55=4229295 / 256 = 16,520 so the wheel is biased 16,520 times above a normal random wheel. That is a bias we use when we place bets.
The above example is very exagerated.(except for the online rng yesterday) but i wanted the math to be understood.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 04, 01:06 PM 2017
Most rngs use methods of things like time between key strokes x 1000 to come up with a number added to some seed. But, what about craps,
Reminds me of a time, 15 years ago, when i programmed a craps method into VBA, the basic in Excel. I came up with some variation that did indeed appear to have an edge, and was confident enough to try it out in the casinos around Lake Tahoe, only to be disappointing that i was losing at the expected rate. So i went back to the drawing board and looked at my random number generator code, and added a time delay between rolls of the "dice". At that point, it broke the system i thought was working. The charts, from before and after this tweak looked nothing alike. It appears the system had exploited some non-random pattern, and when the stream became more truly random, it broke.
I would add, the original craps system was purchased from a classified ad in USA Today for about $200, promising a 2.17 (if i recall) edge in craps. I didn't trust it when i read it, so tested it first in VBA. That's what happened. Neither his method, nor any tweaks i had made worked, either in the first place, and especially after the random generator was tweaked.
Sounds like you have been at this a while. VBA was still new 15 years ago. You have to be cautious. I was skimming numbers off a mechanical roulette wheel, the sectors were predictable, but it was in its low level mode without players, when someone sat down it was another story.
After charting 5 games after a long high random sequence (a run of random numbers above normal for that wheel) start betting on sectors to repeat. Buy in with 140 chips (a full flower) one chip on each of the 9 numbers of the sector that has just repeated, 1 chip on 0 the other on 00. Keep placing a chip on the sectors that have just hit. You are betting on the bias of the wheel will take over and a sector is going to repeat. Like the card wheel I was playing in Oklahoma it was a no brainer playing, guessing sectors to repeat. When you have to make a decision of which way it will go, the bias says repeat. When in doubt repeat….much more later.
If you are playing a wheel that has a lower bias (higher entropy) you have to shift from placing bets on sectors that have hit to review the math of numbers followed by what number. Practice zooming out. For instance, if you have 1,3,4,1,1,2,4,1,3,2,2,3,4,1,3,4,3,3,3,4,? I could go into the math of this stream but if we are looking at a highly random wheel what should we bet next You. I do not want to go into detail until later but you could run the same alg once again on the conditioned stream, or another…more later (remember on a random stream no matter how many times you run an alg it should stay random. If it does not and you know the wheel is random make bets it will repair the anomaly and become random by corrections.) or just bet that after the 4 it will hit a 2. Why not a 1….it has done that the last 3 times. Why not a 2……..high number of 2s have hit. Why not a 4…….high number of repeats have already hit. Once again we are playing the math and biases. If it hits a 1 stop playing and wait for the next time it hits a 4 and continue with the logic of the math of the last 20 or less numbers like we just did. If it hits a 3, bet sector 1(most probable)…. Much more later
Quote from: Steve on Jun 09, 06:40 AM 2017
Actually progression can be a good thing...
Even flat betting a percentage of bankroll is a progression so I suppose that's right.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 09, 04:35 PM 2017
1 chip on 0 the other on 00.
Hedge betting on the zero's is another red flag.
If you skim your numbers then run your algorithm then bet a section of 9 numbers, that means not counting the zeros there are 27 numbers that can cause the bet to lose. Why would the zero's be any more likely than any of the other numbers to save the bet?
An old timer told me that and i have always done it. The math says don't do it......agreed. with a single 0 wheel it give you it gives you 37 a prime can't divide the wheel into sectors, with 38 its cumbersome, so either always or never bet on green.......that is just my opinion.....
Quote from: Chance on Jun 09, 04:35 PM 2017same alg once again on the conditioned stream, or another…more later
Will be interesting to see your other algs.
You are a very humorous person so you wont be sad to read that some users here already found out that your alg was already discussed here, different appearing but quite the same essence.
I'll show the thread later for not to interfer your ideas.
Great, how did it do and if it has already been discussed i don't need to explain further, there are some very smart people on this board. The bottom line in all this discussion is, can you make a random stream using fractal geometry laws. All else is preferences on how to use the inverse for prediction, to find sequences, biases in random devices and patterns. I have not searched threads to see if the person i learned this from has posted here before.
What if we have perfectly "pure" randomness and we discover some bias there? Hope that makes sense.
Can any of your algorithms be used for that?
Thanks
The topic was almost only about what you call alg but for other chances.
Nothing about fractals or geometric laws of fractals.
The results appear like a mirror to your results, so maybe it's not easy to see the connection.
You are not suspected to know this thread.
Quote from: Drazen on Jun 10, 03:08 PM 2017
What if we have perfectly "pure" randomness and we discover some bias there? Hope that makes sense.
Can any of your algorithms be used for that?
In any game you only need a slight accuracy increase. What we should be looking for is proof of concept, like significant testing that shows the odds are changed. I haven't seen that yet but it doesn't mean the principles don't work. We just don't know yet. At least it doesn't appear to be the same old known losing approaches.
Quote from: Chance on Jun 10, 10:49 AM 2017
An old timer told me that and i have always done it. The math says don't do it......agreed. with a single 0 wheel it give you it gives you 37 a prime can't divide the wheel into sectors, with 38 its cumbersome, so either always or never bet on green.......that is just my opinion.....
To me it seems strange to go to great lengths of random reckoning, and then just start plonking chips on two green pockets for no other reason than they are there, or some old timer told you to.
I'm not saying it's wrong to hedge bets on the greens, just that if you are going to hedge bets at all, then you probably should have another whole level random reckoning for the hedge bets. Or find a way to cost effectively hedge every number on the wheel.
Taotie, agreed. You could run the same fractal geometric logic individually with 0 and 00 but that is zooming in more than i comfortable with. I have done extreme odds advantage play with 0s before, it was successful but mathematically i don't thinknit is reliable.
Drazen, using one of my alg i (close your eyes programmers you may not like what i write next) can make a perfectly random stream based on geometric fractal laws, like what we have been discussing here. Doing that i can hide encrypted bytes that are impossible to find.....like an electronic one time pad hidden in a purely random stream. That should also encompass your question.....almost off topic sorry mod!
Looks like this was the last Chance.
Ohhhh no. I will be around for a long time, i have a project i was working on. Will post today. Just wanted to clarify the math on a stream of any length.
Singles or 1s happen .56% of the time
2s .14%
3s .35%
4s .00875%
Etc. N/4
Quote from: Chance on Jun 12, 02:45 PM 2017
Singles or 1s happen .56% of the time
2s .14%
3s .35%
4s .00875%
Etc. N/4
2s happen less then 3s.... is that a mistake?
Yes should be .035
Singles or 1s happen .56% of the time
2s .14%
3s .035%
4s .00875%
Etc. N/4
hey buddy are you gonna continue with the thread? i made 500 numbers with your excercise