I read and sometimes write in several forums. And everywhere see the same situation - main mass of members not like those, who play in some advanced methods - bias, VB, RC etc. Even those, who try some very complicated mathematical methods are also not much popular. Where is the reason for that?
Between AP is such opinion, that peoples are usually lazy and because all AP needs much more job - that is the reason not to like such methods. Ok, that is easy to understand.
But... what is the difference between AP and system? The difference is very small and it can be described by one sentence - AP player by some special laws, rules or other, choose what to bet, system player such part not do, or do that very minimalistic. Or to say other AP player can give logical and mathematical and physical explanation why he bet her and not in another place, what cant do system player.
After AP player chose what to play - later he behaves very similar to system player.
I sometimes think, maybe system player not like not methods, but peoples. In German forums - they not like Kaisan, here not like General...
But I think most of them believe, that they with their methods won quite much?
So what is the main reason?
Some system players:
1. Think APs explanations are arrogant, rather than explanations of variable fact.
2. Are themselves arrogant and don't like to be told they're wrong, even when clearly they are. Like a child stomping feet refusing to accept clear reality.
3. Plain don't understand. But say the APs don't understand. Who's right? Whoever's math and logic is verifiably correct.... Verifiably correct.
4. Think APs believe it's our way vs theirs, when it's in fact what works vs what doesn't. We didnt design reality. Its not opinion or preference.
5. Don't understand there's a difference between short term wins, and legimate advantage.
APs don't give a crap if a system player thinks they have the hg. Does an adult feel the need to tease a child for not understanding something? We've all been wrong before. APs mostly try to correct people's mistakes, and system players take it personally. The bullshit rift between system players and APs is mostly system players not understanding, and taking it personally.
I certainly don't give a crap if someone is winning with whatever method. Good for them. Keep doing it. But reality verifiable with math is not debatable.
Some system players are repetitively clueless, unwilling to try to understand, shortsighted, and don't understand most APs have been where there they are before.
Basically the people who chase repeaters, cold numbers or whatever, don't understand they aren't changing anything. The accuracy is the same.
Thinking otherwise is delusional. Don't argue, just test. But test properly. Reality isn't debatable.
APs are NOT saying we know it all. But we are stating very clear facts that are usually not understood by system players.
A mature adult prefers truth instead of delusion, whether or not it hurts their pride.
One common theme lately is "random is predictable because of the law of a third".
Yeah and so is around even amount of reds and blacks.
Repeaters are normal probability and some people have no clue, you can't use this to change odds.
Another common attitude of system players towards APs is they think we act like know-it-alls, then reject anything the AP explains.
You know, you don't need to and never should take anyone's word alone. Instead, check for yourself. Test properly. Find out for yourself.
Take your head out of your asses, look at the message, and stop attacking the messenger.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 21, 05:55 AM 2018APs mostly try to correct people's mistakes, and system players take it personally. The bullshit rift between system players and APs is mostly system players not understanding, and taking it personally.
Yes, that "personally" very easy to notice.
Why, if write - you do bad, because you not do chi square test, and mean do such test and much will become clear, so like the good suggestion, like help, system player usually accept that like - " you are stupid and not know how to make chi square test " ?
Ok, Steves answers are from one side of barricades... what will be from another side?
Most system players don't know what a chi test is. So they think its bullshit. They think if they win a bit, it must mean their system "works".
Put it in their language: anything can happen, and anyone can win in the short term. Short term is statistically almost meaningless. The more you test, and the more results "stand out", the closer to 100% certainty you get.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 21, 06:29 AM 2018
Ok, Steves answers are from one side of barricades... what will be from another side?
Yes let's hear the other side. I would specifically like to know why system players refuse to adequately test working principles of systems (the part that supposedly changes the odds and makes bet selection better than random)
I think all system players get looked at as all the same. I agree most systems are bad! The problem is most people who don't understand probability will base their system on what they think is a rare event that won't happen, not knowing that the event is not that rare. This is like that guy that plays red and doubles wagers after a loss, thinking 10 losses in a row can't happen in a short period of play.
I say random is predictable, which just means having a good understanding of probability. I do think that a player that knows this well and uses it is a better player than the one I just mentioned.
People can't wrap there head around random, and have a hard time visualizing it. If you ask someone to write down a 100 spin sample of how they think dozens will fall, most people will show a pretty equal distribution without large gaps. I took a quick sample of 100 spins betting dozen 1. The largest gap was 15. There was also 6 hits in a row as well (the odds of this is 1 to 729).
Knowing how random works will help in your bet selection. It will help to avoid losses that you may think is rare. Random is not an equal distribution of numbers...most outcomes will be long gaps with no hits, and short clusters of hits together.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 21, 06:32 AM 2018
Yes let's hear the other side. I would specifically like to know why system players refuse to adequately test working principles of systems (the part that supposedly changes the odds and makes bet selection better than random)
AP-players wouldn´t allow a proof. See herb/general/snowman/all other names bashing against me and GUT.
No AP-Player just tried to think about the idea. Their most and only argument is "independence of spins".
It sounds like 1+1=2 no other math is possible and allowed
Remember question - why you not like, not who is good who is bad :)
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 21, 01:57 PM 2018
Remember question - why you not like, not who is good who is bad :)
Not personal. Maybe disagree. I'd buy them a beer a play some roulette with them :)
Steve,
I think it all comes down to math, logic, and denial. System players tend to really suck at math/basic probability/statistics. Logic too is a big problem for many of them. Lastly, denial. They don't want to believe that what they're doing can't work.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 21, 12:16 PM 2018I think all system players get looked at as all the same.
Thats because they share the same misunderstandings.
For example, the rare event approaches... there are countless rare events. Even the sequence 32,5,19,4,3,18 is very rare. So what? You cannot use that or any rare event because the odds are still the same.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 21, 12:16 PM 2018I say random is predictable, which just means having a good understanding of probability. I do think that a player that knows this well and uses it is a better player than the one I just mentioned.
Random is not at all predictable, unless you consider something useless like repeats as being predictable. It's just normal probability you cannot use for even a slight edge.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 21, 12:16 PM 2018People can't wrap there head around random, and have a hard time visualizing it. If you ask someone to write down a 100 spin sample of how they think dozens will fall, most people will show a pretty equal distribution without large gaps. I took a quick sample of 100 spins betting dozen 1. The largest gap was 15. There was also 6 hits in a row as well (the odds of this is 1 to 729).
You too aren't understanding the uneven distribution is useless basic probability. On future spins, what you perceive as a trend has no bearing on the next spins.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 21, 01:08 PM 2018AP-players wouldn´t allow a proof.
Nonsense. The kind of proof a system player gives is short term charts with spins that match their theory. An AP explains with proper testing you see any bet selection with random spins is as useless as another.
Its not opinion. It's verifiable fact. No system player has ever shown me otherwise. What they show is poor understanding, and attack me personally, rather than do proper testing.
Quote from: The General on Jul 21, 04:35 PM 2018
I think it all comes down to math, logic, and denial. System players tend to really suck at math/basic probability/statistics. Logic too is a big problem for many of them. Lastly, denial. They don't want to believe that what they're doing can't work.
Basically yes. The understanding is elementary. Flat earthers don't know how bad their logic is.
What i still don't get is how, when you explain it to them with verifiable proof, they still don't get it. Its like the learning part of their brain is not working. We may as well be talking to a brick. Im not being condecending. Some of them just never get it. Its frustrating.
Imagine trying to explain why 1+1=2 and they insist otherwise. It really is on that level. There are very different levels of understanding.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 21, 05:24 PM 2018
Nonsense. The kind of proof a system player gives is short term charts with spins that match their theory. An AP explains with proper testing you see any bet selection with random spins is as useless as another.
I can't speak for others, but I proofed on millions of spins that GUT is working and I told the math and theory behind it.
But I never read such a extensive description and proof of an AP-Player of what he is selecting an betting on.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 21, 05:24 PM 2018
Its not opinion. It's verifiable fact. No system player has ever shown me otherwise. What they show is poor understanding, and attack me personally, rather than do proper testing.
I've shown on both of your forums. And I have never attacked you personally and I#ve done proper testing. BUT you didn't even read about GUT.
So don't complain.
I am with Winkel
the guys that use/sell computers and the guys that claim to only play AP.....will never in a million years say anything else works, it hurts their personal objectives
i believe GUT and KTF works only because i have seen the sheets and have tested
it just takes hard work and time
the message is getting to be like fake news, noone listens anymore.... :)
QuoteI can't speak for others, but I proofed on millions of spins that GUT is working and I told the math and theory behind it.
Winkel,
You've never provided math that proves what you're doing will work. The reason is because you can't prove it.
Sorry, but that's just the way the facts are.
Quote from: The General on Jul 21, 05:49 PM 2018
Winkel,
You've never provided math that proves what you're doing will work. The reason is because you can't prove it.
Sorry, but that's just the way the facts are.
I did and provided the math-proof. But you just didn´t read it (I think you didn´t understand, because it needs a bit more than 1+1)
That are the facts and the truth is not your lie that is repeated again and again
Post it here.
BTW
in another forum you opened a thread called "The proof why GUT doesn´t work" You stopped our discussion because you ran out of arguments didn´t you?
Quote from: The General on Jul 21, 06:26 PM 2018
Post it here.
It is posted in this forum. Just have a look
I won't waste my time. There's nothing to support your system.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 21, 05:43 PM 2018
I can't speak for others, but I proofed on millions of spins that GUT is working and I told the math and theory behind it.
Please post the link here.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 21, 05:43 PM 2018But I never read such a extensive description and proof of an AP-Player of what he is selecting an betting on.
Actually I provide numerous complete strategies at roulettephysics.com
Quote from: winkel on Jul 21, 05:43 PM 2018I've shown on both of your forums. And I have never attacked you personally and I#ve done proper testing. BUT you didn't even read about GUT.
I don't know anything about GUT which is why I'm asking.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 21, 05:48 PM 2018the guys that use/sell computers and the guys that claim to only play AP.....will never in a million years say anything else works, it hurts their personal objectives
Are you really that dimwitted? I'm serious. I don't give a crap if you or anyone doesn't like my preferred methods. My methods aren't even relevant to the discussion. You and others bring then up instead of actually considering the logic and math. You attack the messenger and think it's a conspiracy.
Instead of focusing on the messenger, focus on what's being said.
Its not a conspiracy. Is the entire professional world in on the conspiracy? Or is your understanding just really bad?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 21, 05:48 PM 2018i believe GUT and KTF works only because i have seen the sheets and have tested
Considering your lack of understanding of basic math, I'll see for myself rather than take your word.
Winkel, i have an open mind. Both with flat earth and turbos approach, i waited for the facts before deciding. Please link to the proof and explanations you provided.
And rg, if selling was my focus, I'd be selling typical systems, instead of much less popular AP.
I didn't design this reality. I didn't make the rules that govern what does and doesnt work. We're all just passengers.
You really need to work on your understanding. It's all actually just really basic stuff. Every professional in the industry understands it. Any mathematician or educated person understands it. Do they all just work for me? Wake up, focus on the message, not the messenger.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 21, 06:27 PM 2018in another forum you opened a thread called "The proof why GUT doesn´t work" You stopped our discussion because you ran out of arguments didn´t you?
I can suggest one simple thing. Usually, we use the term - "long run", but the same we can take simply one next spin and look what will be in it.
Say you chose accordingly some previous spins, that in next spin more preferable are hits to 1-10 pockets, because accordingly GUT now must be changed from situation 17-16 to 16-16 etc.... so you bet 1-10.
But I take simply the ruler, measure wide of pockets and find, that pockets 11-20 are simply wider than other every by 3 mm and I bet on pockets 11-20.
Now say how you think, which of us have bigger chance to win in one next spin - you, because such say GUT , or me, because mine pockets are simply wider?
Another way of saying it is what's the actual principle that changes your odds of winning to better than random?
In turbos case, he claimed 24 numbers will usually appear in 37 spins, and knowing this greatly improves his odds. But it's nonsense because the repeaters start with 1 win per number. From there, the odds of the number winning again anytime haven't changed. He doesn't know which numbers are a possibility of repeating until each wins once. So his claims of changing the odds based on what he explained are rubbish.
A simple way of investigating his claim is run tests to see if repeats of a number in any way make it spin more often than others. The result is clearly it doesn't.
Again it's not opinion.
I don't know what the working principle of GUT is, which is why i asked for an explanation. My mind isn't made up. I know nothing about it for now.
A mathematician once said that since we don't understand everything we try to either prove or disprove theories. Mathematicians try to work the math to see if something works or doesn't. He said that some concepts of math that were disproved for hundreds of years all of a sudden get proved and it changes everything. Nothing is ever totally disproved, it's always being reworked. As he was speaking at an elementary school to try to recruit the students to enter the math and sciences fields, he brought a scrambled Rubik's cube as a visual aid. He said there are over 43 quintillion permutations and over 3 billion combinations there is only one solution. With that amount the original theory and math was that it could not be solved in under 100 moves. Eventually algorithms were created to lower that to under 30 spins, now with newer algorithms it's under 20 spins. He then solved it in under 15 seconds. The point is that math is not always set in stone. Some things can be disproved and reworked and updated.
The problem with both AP and system players is that most gamblers don't have a business sense and or the discipline to ride it out properly. Even with a winning system either with AP or Systems, without the proper discipline they lose.
The other problem is that they each treat each other as enemies, not as equals. System players are one camp and AP players the other. AP players most start as system players but failed, so they move onto AP play and tell everyone that it's impossible to win system play and system .players keep trying within the math. Some successfully, most not. But what it boils down to is the discipline.
For Steve, I feel sorry for him. I know what he thinks he is trying to do is help, In some cases he probably does. But he gets attacked for having a hidden agenda of selling his computers. It would get annoying as hell to be picked on all the time and anger may rear it's ugly head once in awhile and words become heated on both sides. The General, well no comment.
Bottom line it's still the discipline that is more important than anything.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 21, 10:01 PM 2018The point is that math is not always set in stone.
Math has never changed.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 21, 10:01 PM 2018The other problem is that they each treat each other as enemies, not as equals.
Not exactly. Its the system players that take it personally.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 21, 10:01 PM 2018AP players most start as system players but failed, so they move onto AP play and tell everyone that it's impossible to win system play and system
No. They just eventually understand better.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 21, 10:01 PM 2018Even with a winning system either with AP or Systems, without the proper discipline they lose.
Discipline cannot make a losing system a winning system
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 21, 10:01 PM 2018For Steve, I feel sorry for him. I know what he thinks he is trying to do is help, In some cases he probably does. But he gets attacked for having a hidden agenda of selling his computers. It would get annoying as hell to be picked on all the time and anger may rear it's ugly head once in awhile and words become heated on both sides
I've been attacked more than you know, mostly because of ego and envy. That didn't bother me like it once did. Actually what frustrates me most is manipulation, inaccurate information, stupid people, and ultimately ignorance. Most people are not stupid, but some are very ignorant. Thats ok, we all begin that way. The worst of all is wilfull ignorance.
Anyway really I'm just trying to help. Most aps here are the same. I don't care if people don't want to listen. I'm not talking to those people. I'm not interested in forcing anything down throats.
(link:://%5Burl=link:://:.pichost.org/image/2muVg%5D%5Bimg%5Dlink:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/22/temp_213113.png)[/url]link:s://:.vlsroulette.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13004.0;attach=4960;image[/img]
further explanations are destroyed in the vls-section link:s://:.vlsroulette.com/index.php?topic=13004.msg85552#msg85552
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 21, 08:21 PM 2018
I can suggest one simple thing. Usually, we use the term - "long run", but the same we can take simply one next spin and look what will be in it.
Say you chose accordingly some previous spins, that in next spin more preferable are hits to 1-10 pockets, because accordingly GUT now must be changed from situation 17-16 to 16-16 etc.... so you bet 1-10.
But I take simply the ruler, measure wide of pockets and find, that pockets 11-20 are simply wider than other every by 3 mm and I bet on pockets 11-20.
Now say how you think, which of us have bigger chance to win in one next spin - you, because such say GUT , or me, because mine pockets are simply wider?
the "next one spin" isn´t worth to discuss. All who argue with this don´t understand probability. For further information see Kolmogoroff.
If you wanna know how independent random results work together read Markov.
You example:
- In that case there wouldn´t be any crossings
- If there is a crossing it would disappear after some spins.
- There will be other crossings appearing which are built by pockets 11-20
I will win, because some day they will fix the pockets and you will lose, but GUT will still remain.
How can you not change the odds of winning on the next spin, but change the odds of winning on multiple spins?
Simple question.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 22, 04:08 AM 2018
How can you not change the odds of winning on the next spin, but change the odds of winning on multiple spins?
Simple question.
again the next spin argument.
If you follow multiple independent trials you can group the results:
Hit - non hit - multiple hits
these groups have their own probability to hit.
Yes they have probability too. But you didn't answer my question fully.
Youre basically saying a house of lego is not made from individual bricks.
The odds of 2 spins is 37 squared. Thats TWO independent spins. Whether you group or separate them, it's the same thing.
Another way of saying what you said, is 1 spin has different odds for two spins. We know that. So how does it help? Its just 37 squared.
You didn´t understand pls. read Kolmogoroff and you will understand (hopefully)
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 04:04 AM 2018the "next one spin" isn´t worth to discuss. All who argue with this don´t understand probability.
Winkel, but you understand, that with such sentence you simply show some weakness. For probability are no difference is it is one or thousand or million. Probability is such as it is.
Problem is that you not understand, what I wanted to say.
So I can say more simple.
Say you detected accordingly previous spins, that numbers 1-10 have bigger probability to be hit. But say you not know, that casino can change wideness of pockets and it has done, that on pockets 1-10 making them narrower.
You still believe that pockets which you chose accordingly your system are preferable?
I hope that no.
So what I wanted to say is that previous spins do not have effect to what will be in next spin again and again and these next spins can be even million.
Ball movement and stopping in the pocket is the physical event and to result have effect only some physical changes - such as ball speed, wheel speed, some deformations of the rotor of the stator, some ball features, some weather features and etc, but not what was before.
You must understand that what was before is the result of something, but not reason!
Winkel, the information is scattered. Exactly where can i find his complete theory clearly explained?
So far it looks like basic probability explained a different way.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 22, 04:22 AM 2018
Youre basically saying a house of lego is not made from individual bricks.
and what AP-players say is: There are only single bricks but no house.
1) Watching the next single spin says every number has the probability of 1/37. That is correct and not changed.
2) But if we group these 37 numbers e.g. in dozens every dozen (group of 12 single numbers) has the probability of 12/37.
That is what all AP-players don´t believe, because they only think in sentence number 1.
What I do accordingly to Kolmogoroff is:
I group the numbers after every spin in at least three groups: non-hit and hit once and hit more than once.
If we have 19 unhit and 14 once hit and 4 hit more than once the probability of these three groups is:
19/37 and 14/37 and 4/37.
Can you follow so far?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 04:42 AM 2018
... But say you not know, that casino can change wideness of pockets and it has done, that on pockets 1-10 making them narrower.
You still believe that pockets which you chose accordingly your system are preferable?
I hope that no.
We can only discuss this problem if you think in spins not in pockets.
Even if probability is changed by a biased wheel GUT remains in its structure.
And even if the wheel is fixed (at an unknown time) it doesn´t change anything to GUT.
See Markovs example: If students have written a homework and the teacher is to correct them A d-Grade should get a D.
But if the weather is bad it could be that it will be a d- and if the weather is good it good be a d+.
We could say a d is a d, but it is changed by the "unknown" psychological state of the teacher.
For d´s set random result for psychological state of teacher set "biased wheel"
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 10:51 AM 2018See Markovs example: If students have written a homework and the teacher is to correct them A d-Grade should get a D.
But if the weather is bad it could be that it will be a d- and if the weather is good it good be a d+.
But this is logical, because of teacher grade student accordingly mood. So such are humans. Good mood - do one, bad mood - do other.
So the reason is mood!
But in our case reason is not what was before - you can calculate how you want what was before how much was unhit, how much was once hit etc - you count results and leave aside reasons!
Simple example - you observe results and see - was 19 unhit 14hit once and 4 hits more. But that is only for you - for some other player who started observe earlier, or later - these results will be different , but next spin will be one for all!
Ok final attempt - you are basketplayer and throw free throws -3 not hits and 4 hits from 7 attempts - what will be next hit ???
Are one "mathematical" task :
" House has 7 floors, on every floor are 17 flats.
The question - which is the age of women which live in 3 floor , 11flat ? "
That is like you look to roulette.
You simply mixed results with reasons....
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 11:25 AM 2018
Simple example - you observe results and see - was 19 unhit 14hit once and 4 hits more. But that is only for you - for some other player who started observe earlier, or later - these results will be different , but next spin will be one for all!
...
That is like you look to roulette.
You simply mixed results with reasons....
If player 1 starts at spin 23 and player two starts at spin 32 of the day`s permanence, it has no effect to GUT.
There is no reason in randomness but there are results.
Every game starts with 37 unhit numbers. And we know that there will be a point that all 37 numbers have hit.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 10:48 AM 2018If we have 19 unhit and 14 once hit and 4 hit more than once the probability of these three groups is:
19/37 and 14/37 and 4/37.
Here is absolute nonsense. To know the probability of the group of hits we firstly need know number of total attempts. Here we that not know because 4 more than once can be 8 but can be infinity....
And second, at all knowing that in X spins are 14 numbers which hit once - for us is worthless information - we still not know which number will hit in next spin !
The only information from previous spins have worth for us - is when we have big data of results and when do chi-square test which shows for us that the result is not random!
By the way Winkel, you know, that some peoples tried to sell your GUT for quite big money in some Russian forums 4-5 years back?
Maybe you himself that organized?
Anyway, your that GUT theory at least have some background - so the idea is maybe smart. But all kill wrong mathematical calculations if such was done....
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 11:36 AM 2018
Here is absolute nonsense. To know the probability of the group of hits we firstly need know number of total attempts. Here we that not know because 4 more than once can be 8 but can be infinity....
And second, at all knowing that in X spins are 14 numbers which hit once - for us is worthless information - we still not know which number will hit in next spin !
The only information from previous spins have worth for us - is when we have big data of results and when do chi-square test which shows for us that the result is not random!
This is exactly the point why AP - Players are not liked in forums:
QuoteHere is absolute nonsense.
this is no argument. Such a statement is "nonsense"
Quotewe firstly need know number of total attempts.
All AP-Players ask for math but aren´t obviously unable to know how many spins are needed to produce such a result of 19 - 14 - 4. Proof your math knowledge and tell how many spins are thrown until that result is shown.
QuoteAnd second, at all knowing that in X spins are 14 numbers which hit once - for us is worthless information - we still not know which number will hit in next spin !
Whoever "us" may be, but for me it is a very useful information. I don´t have to know which number is spun next, I only have to know in which group that next number probably will be. An educated guess.
Chi-Square: That idiot of snowman/general lately said you have to have a chi-square result of at least 350! Happy searching for such a wheel. It has to have only one pocket or every pocket has to have the same result-number.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 11:42 AM 2018
By the way Winkel, you know, that some peoples tried to sell your GUT for quite big money in some Russian forums 4-5 years back?
Maybe you himself that organized?
Anyway, your that GUT theory at least have some background - so the idea is maybe smart. But all kill wrong mathematical calculations if such was done....
Now that redicoulous argument. Do you think I´m that stupid to explain GUT in different forums for free and then start to sell it?
GUT won´t kill math it uses only statistical effects and stochastical math.
Which goes back to what I’ve said before
The math doesn’t change
But a player can use statistics to their advantage
If X number of numbers shows in a 37 spin cycle on average a player can use that to formulate a strategy of play
Disagreeing with this is nothing short of denial
The Steve’s and Caleb’s can say whatever they want to
It’s also common sense that one would be able to use statistics and averages to help their gaming success
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 11:49 AM 2018All AP-Players ask for math but aren´t obviously unable to know how many spins are needed to produce such a result of 19 - 14 - 4. Proof your math knowledge and tell how many spins are thrown until that result is shown.
Quote
QuoteHere is absolute nonsense. To know the probability of the group of hits we firstly need know number of total attempts. Here we that not know because 4 more than once can be 8 but can be infinity....
This is another reason why most systemplayers hate AP-people: they don´t refer to your arguments or proof they stop the discussion and try to ruin your reputation.
Or: they use brainless arguments:
Quotebecause 4 more than once can be 8 but can be infinity....
So show me a sequence where 4 numbers have hit
infinite times with only 14 other numbers hit once and 19 numbers didn´t hit at all.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 12:13 PM 2018So show me a sequence where 4 numbers have hit infinite times with only 14 other numbers hit once and 19 numbers didn´t hit at all.
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-(15-16-17-18-15-16-17-18-15-16-17-18.... ) 19-37 are nothit, not understand where is problem ?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 22, 11:58 AM 2018
Which goes back to what I’ve said before
The math doesn’t change
But a player can use statistics to their advantage
If X number of numbers shows in a 37 spin cycle on average a player can use that to formulate a strategy of play
Disagreeing with this is nothing short of denial
The Steve’s and Caleb’s can say whatever they want to
It’s also common sense that one would be able to use statistics and averages to help their gaming success
"The math doesn’t change"
"But a player can use statistics to their advantage"Ghost,
That's a bit of an oxymoron don't you think? If the math doesn't change then how can a player use statistics to their advantage? ::)
Maybe you could word what you've written differently. I don't think you meant to say it as you've written it above.
Can you create an example demonstrating what you mean?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 12:34 PM 2018
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-(15-16-17-18-15-16-17-18-15-16-17-18.... ) 19-37 are nothit, not understand where is problem ?
you are joking, aren´t you!
As AP-Players always react if the run out of arguments: They go absurd!
Tell me when you are back to normal discussion-rules
Quote from: The General on Jul 22, 12:45 PM 2018
If the math doesn't change then how can a player use statistics to their advantage? ::)
It would be helpful if you knew the difference and common in math and statistics.
Tell me when you learned about and I will explain
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 12:50 PM 2018you are joking, aren´t you!
Not understand what is bad with this sequence?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 12:52 PM 2018
It would be helpful if you knew the difference and common in math and statistics.
Tell me when you learned about and I will explain
Winkel,
You're not at war with me. Stop acting as though you are. You're in combat with basic probability, math, logic, and common sense.
Winkel, I say you once more - you simply mix results with reasons - ball hits to pockets not because in past was some special results , but because of action of some simple physical laws!
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 01:01 PM 2018
Not understand what is bad with this sequence?
Such a sequence was never seen.
The latest watched spin with 19-14-4 was spin 30. (testrange 40 000 000 spins)
Can we discuss results which are not absurd.
Otherwise we can discuss 37 different numbers in 32 spins or the same number for 100 spins
Quote from: The General on Jul 22, 01:05 PM 2018
Winkel,
You're not at war with me. Stop acting as though you are. You're in combat with basic probability, math, logic, and common sense.
Not me, you are!
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 01:08 PM 2018
Winkel, I say you once more - you simply mix results with reasons - ball hits to pockets not because in past was some special results , but because of action of some simple physical laws!
pls go back and read what I said to that.
another thing AP-people do: they come back to old arguments again and again and don´t read the answers.
Quote from: The General on Jul 22, 12:45 PM 2018
If the math doesn't change then how can a player use statistics to their advantage? ::)
Can you create an example demonstrating what you mean?
Probability can help make better bet selections. First, realize that the average session will most likely be 200 spins or less. This is what we have to defeat. What happens in 1 million spins doesn't matter.
There has to be a reason a strategy wins. Consider these 2 different approaches:
Example 1: player believes that numbers hit will tend to equal out in the short term. This player will base his entire strategy on this event happening most of the time. His strategy relies on cold numbers catching up to hot numbers, eventually there will be an even number of repeats.
Example 2: player believes that in less than 200 spins there will be an unequal distribution of numbers. He believes that some numbers can outpace other by a factor of more than 6 to 1 or even better. His whole strategy is based on this happening most of the time.
So, which example is better? If you run 100s of simulations of a 200 spin cycle you will see what random does. The odds of an equal number or repeats ever occurring within 200 spins is infinitely small. It won't even be remotely close. There will always be a wide gap between hottest and coldest number. Basic probability. A player CAN use probability to make better bet selection.
Winkel, Scarface,
The number of pockets on the wheel determines the probability of a number winning in the random game.
If the same number of pockets remain on the wheel from one spin to the next, then how can the probability of winning change based on what has hit on past spins?
Simple logic says past spins have zero effect. Now if you want to argue that the number of pockets changes somehow then go right ahead. However if you take the time to look down and count them at each spin you'll find that they're all still there!
Quote from: The General on Jul 22, 01:53 PM 2018
Winkel, Scarface,
The number of pockets on the wheel determines the probability of a number winning in the random game.
If the same number of pockets remain on the wheel from one spin to the next, then how can the probability of winning change based on what has hit on past spins?
Simple logic says past spins have zero effect. Now if you want to argue that the number of pockets changes somehow then go right ahead. However if you take the time to look down and count them at each spin you'll find that they're all still there!
as long as you can´t think in wider terms than until the next spin, you will not understand anything and you know nothing about statistical dependence in a sequence of random results.
General, you're never gonna see past the house edge. Why ask a question if you're gonna completely ignore the answer. If I took the time, I could make 100 statements on what will happen in 100 spins, that nearly all will be true. You don't have to be psychic, just know how probability works. Any strategy that bets against this will fail.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 22, 02:26 PM 2018
General, you're never gonna see past the house edge. Why ask a question if you're gonna completely ignore the answer. If I took the time, I could make 100 statements on what will happen in 100 spins, that nearly all will be true. You don't have to be psychic, just know how probability works. Any strategy that bets against this will fail.
I can only give one thumbs up....I would give 98 out of 100 if i could :thumbsup:
If this next-spin-blabla would be right it would also affect the AP-Players.
And the "remaining-37-numbers"-talk is also due to the AP-Players.
What can we leran from that: They are just apita
Winkel, General doesn't care. He's not interested in seeing how probabilty gives predictable results over a series of spins, and how it can reduce variance. He's stuck with the number of pockets on the wheel. I've ask him to test a few things in several different threads...he never bothers and always comes back with the same mantra.
Winkel, lets do the simple thing. Can you play through skype? I will throw the ball, you will see translation and will say where you bet. The result will run through chi-square test - all will be clear. Mathematics will show all - have you advantage, or not ....
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 05:03 PM 2018
Winkel, lets do the simple thing. Can you play through skype? I will throw the ball, you will see translation and will say where you bet. The result will run through chi-square test - all will be clear. Mathematics will show all - have you advantage, or not ....
Any reason that these people need to prove it to u in u kitchen
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 22, 05:03 PM 2018
Winkel, lets do the simple thing. Can you play through skype? I will throw the ball, you will see translation and will say where you bet. The result will run through chi-square test - all will be clear. Mathematics will show all - have you advantage, or not ....
You didn´t read what I´ve told. GUT has nothing to do with a CHI-Test.
Better you try my math than to refer to any other (undefined AP-)Math.
You can take any of TCS´s Video-Tutorials to do your math. So you don´t have to throw some absurd sequences to prove me wrong.
Winkel, so far i understand your explanations. But exactly how is it all used to change the odds?
You appear to be saying you bet on the events that must happen.
Please provide clear explanations of why the events must happen.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 22, 04:51 PM 2018He's not interested in seeing how probabilty gives predictable results over a series of spins, and how it can reduce variance
Exactly how can it reduce variance? Please give one clear example.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 22, 06:30 PM 2018
Exactly how can it reduce variance? Please give one clear example.
Did you see my previous post with the 2 examples? Let's face it, the average session for most games is somewhere between 30-200 spins depending on when the player chooses to exit. 200 spins in probably close to 6 hours play on your average table.
Which strategy would you say is better from the two examples I gave? Strategy based on a fairly equal distribution of numbers....or a strategy based on unequal distribution? It's easy to say that all spins are independent, and the house edge will make us all lose. But what does random show us to happen? What is the norm based on probability?
Probability shows what normally happens is a number will most likely hit 9 times before the coldest hits once. Probability shows that an equal number of repeats occurring for 1 cycle is astronomically small, much less for several cycles.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 22, 06:58 PM 2018Probability shows what normally happens is a number will most likely hit 9 times before the coldest hits once. Probability shows that an equal number of repeats occurring for 1 cycle is astronomically small, much less for several cycles.
A lot of things are probable. But what you appear to be missing is you still aren't changing the odds of actually winning.
Its like saying:
* Roulette is predictable because some statistics are predictable
* After 10 spins, the probability is some will be red, some black
* The probability is MOST of the time, there will NOT be an equal number of reds/blacks.
* If we have 4 reds and 5 blacks, then the probability is BLACK will spin next.
It has mistakes.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 22, 06:58 PM 2018Which strategy would you say is better from the two examples I gave? Strategy based on a fairly equal distribution of numbers....or a strategy based on unequal distribution?
They are no better than each other.
What you are attempting to do has been tried before many times. It doesn't work because the previous numbers have no such connection to the future numbers. The probability that any number will win, as general said, depends on the number of pockets.
Why would the distribution of numbers affect the future spins?
I understand what you are saying and trying to do, but it doesnt work.
Steve,
For sure being physicaly near a wheel and estimating speeds and stuff gives a real hedge to the player. As for people like me who have no time nor plenty of resources to go to casinos, well, all we have left are online casinos, i.e. pretty much only rng to play with. Quite normal we relie on systems or system ideas to try to win more than lose.
Would you say " forget about roulette" if we are from middle class with kids? !!!
In the meantime, i'll just "play" on my couch hoping and dreaming. What if...
Quote from: Bigbroben on Jul 22, 08:29 PM 2018Quite normal we relie on systems or system ideas to try to win more than lose.
I don't have any problem with that. Understand what Im saying. I'm only explaining why some approaches dont work.
Quote from: Bigbroben on Jul 22, 08:29 PM 2018Would you say " forget about roulette" if we are from middle class with kids?
I didnt say that exactly. If you are using a bad system that is guaranteed to eventually fail, and you have a family, then it makes sense to not gamble your family's money away. It's not my money, just a suggestion.
Perhaps the biggest misunderstanding here is I'm saying.....
1. TRY SOMETHING NEW.
NEW.
2.
TEST PROPERLY BEFORE BETTING REAL MONEY
3. KNOW WHAT TESTING PROPERLY ACTUALLY INVOLVES, AND WHY.
Right on!
Quote from: winkel on Jul 22, 02:23 PM 2018
as long as you can´t think in wider terms than until the next spin, you will not understand anything and you know nothing about statistical dependence in a sequence of random results.
On the contrary,
I think in terms of the long run. The number of pockets on the wheel from one spin to the next is also true for the long run.
It doesn't matter if you count the number of pockets on the next spin, the next series of spins, the next ten thousand spins, etc...you're always going to find that the same number of pockets remain, regardless of what has hit on past spins.
QuoteGeneral, you're never gonna see past the house edge. Why ask a question if you're gonna completely ignore the answer. If I took the time, I could make 100 statements on what will happen in 100 spins, that nearly all will be true. You don't have to be psychic, just know how probability works. Any strategy that bets against this will fail.
Scarface,
Sorry, but the number of pockets determines the probability of a number hitting. Not past spins.
Follow the logic if you can.
Make it simple. Show one example how how your bet selection method changes the odds.
Then repeat this over different spins, many times. And check if you are winning more than random bet selection.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 22, 10:46 PM 2018
Make it simple. Show one example how how your bet selection method changes the odds.
Then repeat this over different spins, many times. And check if you are winning more than random bet selection.
This is so boring.
GUT exists nearly more than 15 years.
GUT doesn´t change the odds it uses them.
GUT doesn´t change the number of pockets, it doesn´t need it.
There are thousands of examples of GUT betting.
Is testing and playing GUT for 15 and more years not proper testing?
Do APs change the odds?
Do APs change the number of pockets?
If Aps found a number to attack, doe they win every spin?
Do APs tell the same BlaBla over years?
For the last question there is a YES.
OK, one example:
Are there crossing lines?
The lines have to cross, they do cross and they will cross in every spin sequence. In the past, now, and in the future.
We only bet if they are to cross (statistic shows when to bet)
Winkel, understand I'm giving GUT fair consideration. My comments and questions are unbiased.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018GUT exists nearly more than 15 years.
So has the martingale.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018GUT doesn´t change the odds it uses them.
If you don't change the odds, then your bet selection is the same as random, and you have negative expectation.
To say you dont change odds but you use them, is like saying "its still 1 in 37, the payouts are still unfair, and we use that". It's an oxymoron.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018There are thousands of examples of GUT betting.
Ok I'm just asking for one clear example.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018Is testing and playing GUT for 15 and more years not proper testing?
It's long enough, but I know nothing else about the testing done yet.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018Do APs change the odds?
Yes.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018Do APs change the number of pockets?
No. It's not possible. But we change the odds.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018If Aps found a number to attack, doe they win every spin?
No, but they improve the odds for them.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018Do APs tell the same BlaBla over years?
Yes, because as far as I'm aware, reality and math will never change. What's true now will continue being true.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:19 AM 2018Are there crossing lines?
The lines have to cross, they do cross and they will cross in every spin sequence. In the past, now, and in the future.
We only bet if they are to cross (statistic shows when to bet
I don't know the relevance of the crossing lines. Please explain it.
I did some research on Kolmogorov and Markov chains. There's a lot more research to do fully understand them, but so far it appears the theory is only useful when there are LIMITED possibilities, but completely useless if there are unlimited possibilities.
In the case of roulette, the possibilities increase proportionally to the number of spins. So we may start with 37 possibilities, but then there are the possibilities with values 37^2, 37^3, 37^4 and so on. More importantly, the possibilities (odds) will always be greater than the payouts. Random does NOT have any limits (unless your idea of a limit is the amount of pockets on the next spin, which doesnt help because the payouts are always lower).
Sure you could look at finite possibilities in just two spins, but it doesnt make any difference in roulette. For example, you cant just say there are 37 numbers, so you have 37 possibilities, and therefore you will win.
I think your theory with GUT is incorrect because you assume there are finite possibilities, where no such limit exists.
Markov chains could be used, in part, to predict something like stock prices, because prices may not realistically go to zero. There is a feedback loop with supply and demand. No such thing exists in roulette.
Please dont bite back at me. Dont go criticising APs. This post has nothing to do with my preferred method. I'm trying to understand your theory, and this is my understanding so far.
Please correct my understanding.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 02:13 AM 2018There are thousands of examples of GUT betting.
Look Winkel, say roulette have only 3 numbers ( can be 5 or 7) for simplicity. Can you show the situation, when you know which number have more chances to be hit accordingly GUT ?
If cant - that means, that you always do bet with the negative expectation. You understand, that if the player always has negative expectation - he can't win in long run and sooner or later he will come to minus?
The most simple explanation!
Attention this is not the betting rule, this is not the strategy, this is not a betting point. It is just the principle:
If we start betting our game starts with 37 unhit numbers.
After the first spin 1 number hits and the count is now
37 unhit 1 hit
after the next spin another number hits and the count is now
36 unhit 2 hit
if we follow the game we will definitely come to a point where the count is
19 unhit 18 hit
It is the nature of the game that in one of the next spins this count will change to
18 unhit to 19 hit
This principle you can transfer to
unhit vs hit
once hit vs more than once hit
twice hit vs more than twice hit
and so on.
Additional there are some more possible "crossings"
e.g.
18 vs 18
18 vs 17
17 vs 17
17 vs 16
and so on.
As KonFuSed showed the odds are not changed
In the first example we will win 19/37 of our bets and lose 18/37 of our bets long term.
And now something I didn´t explain so far:
If we note all our bets (real bets or just watched) we will find the variance.
On this variance we can make a chi square test and only bet if the test shows a difference in our favour.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 23, 03:02 AM 2018
Winkel, understand I'm giving GUT fair consideration. My comments and questions are unbiased.
So has the martingale. we are not talking about a progression. GUT is flat betting
If you don't change the odds, then your bet selection is the same as random, and you have negative expectation.
Negative expectation doesn´t depend on the odds. The reason is the negative pay out.
To say you dont change odds but you use them, is like saying "its still 1 in 37, the payouts are still unfair, and we use that". It's an oxymoron.
as we can´t change that we have to deal with it, don´t we!
Ok I'm just asking for one clear example.
see above
...
Yes, because as far as I'm aware, reality and math will never change. What's true now will continue being true.
BlaBla
I don't know the relevance of the crossing lines. Please explain it.
I did some research on Kolmogorov and Markov chains. There's a lot more research to do fully understand them, but so far it appears the theory is only useful when there are LIMITED possibilities, but completely useless if there are unlimited possibilities.
With Roulette there are limited possibilities 37^37
In the case of roulette, the possibilities increase proportionally to the number of spins. So we may start with 37 possibilities, but then there are the possibilities with values 37^2, 37^3, 37^4 and so on.
this bet is not repeating itself spin after spin like bet red after 3 blacks. The game restarts every time newly starting with a new count. The content of the group to bet always changes.
Markov chains could be used, in part, to predict something like stock prices, because prices may not realistically go to zero. There is a feedback loop with supply and demand. No such thing exists in roulette. In Roulette it is the crossing
Please dont bite back at me. Dont go criticising APs.
AP´s started and made the rules of discussion not me
if I missed a question to answer pls ask again
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 23, 04:13 AM 2018
Look Winkel, say roulette have only 3 numbers ( can be 5 or 7) for simplicity.
You are joking again. See my example with 37 numbers.
Can you show the situation, when you know which number have more chances to be hit accordingly GUT ?
I don´t bet a single number I bet a group of numbers with the expectation that this group will hit
If cant - that means, that you always do bet with the negative expectation. You understand, that if the player always has negative expectation - he can't win in long run and sooner or later he will come to minus?
BlaBla! try to think further
Ok so applying this principles to a wheel with 3 numbers.
We start with 3 unhit.
Then on the first spin, we get 1 hit, 2 unhit.
What happens next?
I dont see how this at all can be used for an advantage.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 05:50 AM 2018On this variance we can make a chi square test and only bet if the test shows a difference in our favour.
So your trigger is imbalance. That doesn't work because the odds haven't changed. Your bet selection still has random accuracy.
Im still trying to make sense of it. Specifically im trying to understand why you think this approach would work. What am i missing?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:02 AM 2018Yes, because as far as I'm aware, reality and math will never change. What's true now will continue being true.
BlaBla
Winkel if thats your level of logic, i probably shouldnt waste my time.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:02 AM 2018Negative expectation doesn´t depend on the odds. The reason is the negative pay out.
No, its the discrepancy between odds and payout. Its both.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:02 AM 2018as we can´t change that we have to deal with it, don´t we!
Dealing with it is not changing it? You are making contradictory statements.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:02 AM 2018With Roulette there are limited possibilities 37^37
And like i said, the payout is always below the odds, unless you change the odds. Your approach cannot possibly change odds. I'd still like you to show otherwise.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:02 AM 2018AP´s started and made the rules of discussion not me
Your logic was being questioned, not you. Dont be so offended.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 23, 06:07 AM 2018
...
Im still trying to make sense of it. Specifically im trying to understand why you think this approach would work. What am i missing?
Sorry, this is not personal but what is missing is fantasy.
Instead of following the idea you keep repeating old truths.
As long as the question remains: How do you change odds? (Even if I say I don´t do, and I don´t need) What kind of logic shall I oppose to it?
Same with the statement: You are bound to negative expectation.
I only can answer: BlaBla. Ic ould give millions of answers and explanation at the end: You don´t change odds so you can´t win.
That is no discussion with open mind and open end.
If you would look what e.g. Nottophammer has created from the main idea of "following the trot", could make you think. but as always:
What number hits in the next spin and are you able to predict. If you don´t change odds ..., You are bound to negative expectation..., Math is against you... math tells 1+1=2 and you can´t change and so on.
That is AP-BlaBla and no constructive discussion. And nobody seems to read what I said: I don´t chage, I don´t need to, I know the neg. expectation. Every now and then someone tells me to learn the math: 1+1=2. Study probability. You know nothing. You are a systemseller.
I´m so bored of this primary school grade of debate.
But back to the basics:
In lets say 50 spins there will be several crossings.
What is the expectation to lose all these crossings (which means none of them crosses)?
Can you answer that, then YOU know about probability.
If there is no crossing we don´t bet.
If we meet a crossing at a certain spin we can bet it or we don´t bet it, depending on appearance at an early spin or on a late spin.There are some other hints or the ability of "reading what is going on" which raise our odds to win. And of course statistics and empiric
Quote from: Steve on Jul 23, 06:30 AM 2018
No, its the discrepancy between odds and payout. Its both.
Dealing with it is not changing it? You are making contradictory statements.
And like i said, the payout is always below the odds, unless you change the odds. Your approach cannot possibly change odds. I'd still like you to show otherwise.
Your logic was being questioned, not you. Dont be so offended.
Again you are starting this roundabout.
You don´t refer to my logic you keep repeating your old prayers and sermons
thanks I can´t discuss with someone who is not discussing and arguing, but repeating the first sentence of the debate.
Winkel you still havent shown any valid information to support your claims. Now youre getting upset because im questioning what appears to be obvious mistakes.
I want to be proven wrong.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018Sorry, this is not personal but what is missing is fantasy.
Missing fantasy is a GOOD thing.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018Instead of following the idea you keep repeating old truths.
When did your truths replace the old truths?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018As long as the question remains: How do you change odds? (Even if I say I don´t do, and I don´t need) What kind of logic shall I oppose to it?
Forgive my ignorance. If you win 1 in 37 times but get paid 35-1, how are you supposed to profit?
I see you can ignore that. I find it difficult to ignore. It's basic math.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018I only can answer: BlaBla. Ic ould give millions of answers and explanation at the end: You don´t change odds so you can´t win.
That is no discussion with open mind and open end.
Yes so I'm asking you, show me my mistake. I have an open mind. The problem is you aren't making sense, or I'm rather slow.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018If you would look what e.g. Nottophammer has created from the main idea of "following the trot", could make you think. but as always:
You understand it so I'm asking for a simple example.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018That is AP-BlaBla and no constructive discussion.
Perhaps it's blabla if you don't understand it.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018But back to the basics:
In lets say 50 spins there will be several crossings.
What is the expectation to lose all these crossings (which means none of them crosses)?
Can you answer that, then YOU know about probability.
If there is no crossing we don´t bet.
If we meet a crossing at a certain spin we can bet it or we don´t bet it, depending on appearance at an early spin or on a late spin.
Please give an example with coin tosses. Explain how GUT would apply.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 23, 06:37 AM 2018There are some other hints or the ability of "reading what is going on" which raise our odds to win.
You said you didn't change the odds. Now you do. Which is it?
Quote from: Steve on Jul 23, 07:26 AM 2018I want to be proven wrong.
You tell everyone to test, why don't you test it yourself and see what Winkel is talking about. Some people learn better first hand rather than have something explained to them. Prove yourself right or wrong. You can't say that you already know its wrong if you say you don't know it.
You don’t need to change the odds or the math to win if you use statistics in your favor.
It won’t work EVERYTIME but enough to stay ahead.
Steve and General are stuck
Steve likes to say test test test
But even when you test test test and show the sheets it isn’t good enough
Steve why tell people to test test test if the odds aren’t being changed? That’s the end game of what you will say.
If on average we have X number hit why can’t we use that? Sure it won’t work everytime but so what
You do NOT need to change the odds or payout to be successful playing roulette
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 09:09 AM 2018
If on average we have X number hit why can’t we use that? Sure it won’t work everytime but so what
You do NOT need to change the odds or payout to be successful playing roulette
You can use it but you will of course lose. For example, we know that a number will on average hit once every 38 spins on the double zero wheel. In the short term it will sometimes hit less frequently, and sometimes more frequently. There will also be extended periods where it doesn't hit. But in the long run, we can rely on it to hit at that frequency and to be paid out at only 35 to 1. Meaning, you will lose at exactly the house edge because the payout is short. ::)
Knowing the averages doesn't enable you to bet when you think the numbers are due to hit, as that's part of the gambler's fallacy.
The Martingale has fooled many players into believing that they can exploit the so called "law of averages" and win once they believe the red or black has a 50% chance of winning.
Quote from: The General on Jul 23, 11:49 AM 2018
You can use it but you will of course lose.
(link:s://media.giphy.com/media/sgfauo9CqBcAw/giphy.gif)
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 12:57 PM 2018
(link:s://media.giphy.com/media/sgfauo9CqBcAw/giphy.gif)
Perhaps you can provide an example? ::)
You and Steve aren’t so different
You say provide an example, when you and I both know that no example would be good enough
And Steve says properly test but then says nothing will work if you don’t change the odds. So what’s the point in testing by his logic?
So I’ll just leave this here
(link:s://:.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif)
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 23, 07:57 AM 2018You tell everyone to test, why don't you test it yourself and see what Winkel is talking about.
Ive explained my understanding of his approach, which is betting based on a balance. It doesn't work. I tested this for years.
So in case the was something more to it, I've asked winkel to correct any misunderstanding i have. If my understanding is wrong and it's a new principle, I'll do more testing.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 09:09 AM 2018You don’t need to change the odds or the math to win if you use statistics in your favor.
You don't understand what you just said.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 09:09 AM 2018
Steve and General are stuck
And the entire professional community who understand statistics are stuck too, or it's you who is stuck?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 09:09 AM 2018Steve likes to say test test test But even when you test test test and show the sheets it isn’t good enough
Ive done a lot more tests than anything I've seen anyone here post. Most tests i see here are extremely short term.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 09:09 AM 2018Steve why tell people to test test test if the odds aren’t being changed? That’s the end game of what you will say.
I'm saying test, so they see the odds arent being changed. Yes that is the end game because if you don't change the odds, your wins still occur as often as random, payouts are still short, and you still eventually lose. Thats how the whole gambling industry works.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 09:09 AM 2018If on average we have X number hit why can’t we use that? Sure it won’t work everytime but so what
If 36 is always lower than 37, why can't it be the other way around? Thats your question.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 09:09 AM 2018
You do NOT need to change the odds or payout to be successful playing roulette
36 can be basically be greater than 37, for no reason. Thats basically what you said.
Its not me, caleb, and the whole professional world who are stuck.
Almost every system is a combination of the same bad principles, repackaged. And the player isn't aware it has been tested since gambling existed.
Steve I understand
payouts and odds dont change with betting systems
however using averages can help a player win more than lose.....
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 06:46 PM 2018however using averages can help a player win more than lose.....
HOW?
The typical talk of "averages" are things like "after 37 spins, on average, there will be 24 unique numbers". It doesn't work for reasons explained many times.
It's no different to saying after 100 spins, there will be around half red, half black. People are forgetting fundamental facts already explained at :.roulettephysics.com/roulette-strategy/
When I say test, it is so people can see for themselves.
Then there's the debacle with Turbo's approach, which attempts to use the fact that repeaters is more probable than no repeaters. We know that. It's basic statistics and probability. But it does not and cannot change the 1 in 37 accuracy. And with unfair payouts you're still stuck at -2.7% house edge. So really you changed nothing. You arent predicting which numbers will become hot. You are randomly betting, based on what you think are predictable patterns, when they're just basic probability.
It isnt being understood, which is why we go in circles.
because if 90% of the time there is a 3 peater in a 37 spin cycle this is information a gambler can use
this is common sense....
i understand the math doesnt change spin to spin
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 07:50 PM 2018because if 90% of the time there is a 3 peater in a 37 spin cycle this is information a gambler can use
Sure you can use it, but it doesn't help, at all.
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 07:50 PM 2018i understand the math doesnt change spin to spin
So you basically said "you can use it, but it doesn't help at all".
You aren't changing the math either for the next spin, or any amount of future spins. Your hit rate is still lower than the payout.
This is not being understood, which is why we keep going in circles.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 23, 08:01 PM 2018
Sure you can use it, but it doesn't help, at all.
FALSE
saying it does not help AT ALL is just incorrect, false, and misleading information
Show me.
notto shows it everyday for years with his sheets....years and years of profits....doesnt matter to you...
but we all know how that goes....
years of sheets
years of REAL life play (not million spins mumbo jumbo) is not good enough
he didnt "test long enough"
:xd: :xd: :xd: :xd: :twisted:
cause you know, we must all test 3 million spins, thats practical
Quote from: Steve on Jul 23, 08:01 PM 2018
You aren't changing the math either for the next spin, or any amount of future spins. Your hit rate is still lower than the payout.
Dozens have an expectation to hit at 12/37. If you can play dozens in a way that you know you won't get more that 6 or 7 unhits in a row, would you really care about the unfair payout?
excuse me sir, i see you have won and profitied over a 3 year period but it doesnt mean ANYTHING because you did not test it LONG ENOUGH!
(link:s://media.giphy.com/media/I4Jmrcjnr8Zfq/giphy.gif)
Are you kidding? That's your "proof"?
Firstly, Notto loses on MPR with every new account he creates.
Secondly, you don't even understand the math or logic of what you, and others said. If you did, you'd understand Notto's logic and math are incorrect.
Assuming you do understand what you're supporting, show me the math. Show me something better than "Notto wins".
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 08:16 PM 2018he didnt "test long enough"
Do you think he shows all his losing sessions too?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 08:16 PM 2018cause you know, we must all test 3 million spins, thats practical
You don't understand the relevance of long-term tests. Nobody will ever realistically play 3M spins. The point of long-term testing is to be more assured that results are not just variance. Understand even the martingale will sometimes win over 10,000 or even 100,000 spins. You are confusing short-term wins with a genuine advantage.
Understand there can be 100 different players all using the same system. 48 may be winners and think they're roulette gods. 52 are losers, and go back to the drawing board.
Most importantly, you claim to know better here. You claim to understand it. So show me how it works.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 23, 08:19 PM 2018Dozens have an expectation to hit at 12/37. If you can play dozens in a way that you know you won't get more that 6 or 7 unhits in a row, would you really care about the unfair payout?
That depends on exactly what you're betting. I could bet all three dozens and be guaranteed an eventual "hit", wont I?
Most of the time you could also bet on colors, and not get more than 7 or so consecutive losses. The odds are against it. But it doesn't help, because the payouts are always lower than the odds.... unless you change the odds.
I'm not sure why you guys still don't understand it.
Why are we here then? Why do you operate a roulette forum? Why not just an AP forum and ban all system play talk?
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 23, 08:23 PM 2018
excuse me sir, i see you have won and profitied over a 3 year period but it doesnt mean ANYTHING because you did not test it LONG ENOUGH!
(link:s://:.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif)
Notto curve fits his sessions by looking forwards and backwards in time in order to choose when to quit.
Each session/day also consists of very very few spins. ::)
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 23, 09:44 PM 2018Why are we here then?
Pay attention to what's being said.
TRY SOMETHING NEW. Not something that has been tried countless times before, and is guaranteed to fail.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 23, 09:44 PM 2018Why do you operate a roulette forum? Why not just an AP forum and ban all system play talk?
There is such a thing as a stupid question.
This is a roulette forum, whether AP or "systems", and I would like to see people exploring NEW IDEAS. Not the same old trash that everyone should already know doesn't work. My suggestions are at link:s://:.rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=19212.0 - no they aren't traditional AP. The concepts may go nowhere, who knows. But they are at least roads less traveled.
Every year there's a new generation of players that have no clue what the previous generation learned. Learn from other people's mistakes. And if you want to repeat the mistakes, learn quickly.
What is not clear to me - why system player when somebody tries to explain what he does wrong - become angry.
Really all that looks like if system player say- don't push me - I understand that what I do is wrong, but I want that to do.
This last is understandable - peoples come to casinos to spent time and pay some money for that - all is natural.
Problem is other - system player think, that he does good for winning and AP them not understand only because not have fantasy and can't think in the right level.
But how system player does not understand the simple fact - if they bet 12 numbers for example - their chances to hit are 12/37, because they bet random numbers.
When AP bet 12 numbers his chance to hit is maybe12/33, because he bet not random numbers but numbers which have the higher probability to be hit, because of something. Or in other words, he knows say 4 numbers to which ball will not land almost for sure.
12/33 is simply more than 12/37 and talk is about that ...
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 23, 11:09 PM 2018What is not clear to me - why system player when somebody tries to explain what he does wrong - become angry.
For a few reasons, but it comes down to their poor understanding.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 23, 11:09 PM 2018When AP bet 12 numbers his chance to hit is maybe12/33, because he bet not random numbers but numbers which have the higher probability to be hit, because of something.
And that's all AP is: cause and effect. We dont bet something because the sky is blue, or its a full moon, or because it is "due" to spin soon. We bet something because there are real reasons why a number is more likely than others to win. Excuse us for thinking.
And the system players just don't get it. Any use of cause and effect is AP. That's WHY it's called "advantage play". Because it gives a real advantage.
You have to wonder... why casinos take AP so seriously, but laugh when someone is chasing hot numbers. Wouldn't casinos know their own business?
AP is far from dead. Only someone with no experience would say otherwise. An experienced VB player, using the right technique, can beat almost every wheel design. But most VB players are nowhere near that level. Show me a wheel with completely unpredictable scatter, and I'll show you a wheel design that cant be beaten. I've never found one - never. But a design alone is not everything. You need some other conditions to be viable. My preferred method is related to VB. But there are other approaches that work too.
Here's an example of a system player on MPR cracking the shits at APs. Why? I'm guessing maestro or notto.
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/23/temp_921962.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/27UOd)
Why do you care about APs so much you need to create stupid names on MPR? Do you even understand what AP is? You may as well have said "stick logic up your ass".
.
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/23/temp_455252.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/27lfg)
Quote from: Steve on Jul 23, 10:47 PM 2018Why do you operate a roulette forum? Why not just an AP forum and ban all system play talk?
There is such a thing as a stupid question.
I was brought up with the notion that there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. Thanks for clarifying.
So you are looking for new ways to win, however all systems don't work. Contradictory, but its ok.
Only AP and metaphysical have any merit. Got it.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 24, 06:43 AM 2018I was brought up with the notion that there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.
You were misinformed. Probably by someone trying to be nice and politically correct. Questions can indeed be really, really stupid. They are usually asked by stupid people, or people who haven't been paying attention.
In your case, your question was stupid because it was rhetorical, but with poor understanding of reality. It's like me asking how long do roulette wheel tyres last. To be fair though, there have been much worse questions.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 24, 06:43 AM 2018Thanks for clarifying.
Happy to help.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 24, 06:43 AM 2018So you are looking for new ways to win, however all systems don't work.
Thats called a stupid comment. I never said all system don't work. I'm saying the rubbish already proven to fail doesn't work, so people should understand why, and focus on new approaches.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 24, 06:43 AM 2018Contradictory, but its ok.
No, you just need to look further than 20cm.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 24, 06:43 AM 2018Only AP and metaphysical have any merit. Got it.
More specifically, only methods that have a chance of changing the odds can possibly work. If you don't change the odds, you change nothing.
Metaphysical? Paranormal? Supernatural?
If empirical evidence is against a belief, then the belief is wrong. You should probably do more research before making up your mind.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 24, 06:58 AM 2018I never said all system don't work
Please tell us which systems do work then. computers, AP and spiritual/pot induced don't count as systems. Since you have tested everything, you must know what works. Explain it slowly though, some of us have trouble breathing and chewing gum at the same time.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 24, 07:13 AM 2018Explain it slowly though, some of us have trouble breathing and chewing gum at the same time.
S e e m y p o s t i n t h e o u t s i d e t h e b o x f o r u m
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 24, 07:13 AM 2018spiritual/pot induced don't count as systems
(link:s://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000856151767/c9cda4e0452dcd6d66a70a33bb970d9b_400x400.jpeg)
32 red, maaaan..
This guy made millions
Quote from: Steve on Jul 24, 07:28 AM 2018
(link:s://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000856151767/c9cda4e0452dcd6d66a70a33bb970d9b_400x400.jpeg)
32 red, maaaan..
This guy made millions
Best post on this forum, thanks for the laugh lol
I get it, making the exact same bet selection with the same wager will eventually lose. But there may be something to using probability theory to make better bet selections, since the selection isn't always a static bet one the same amount of numbers.
Maybe there will eventually be mathematical evidence supporting this. But as system players, not mathematicians, we could just stumble on something that works without being able to support with equations.
Although mathematics has come a long way, there is still so much that is uncovered. There are still alot of what seems like very simple problems math cannot solve. One unsolved problem is the "moving sofa problem." There is no mathematical solution for determining the largest size sofa that can be moved in a hallway with a 90 degree turn. Seems simple, but has yet to be solved.
The "traveling salesman problem" is another. A salesman wants to travel to several cities around the country, and return home in the shortest distance possible. Mathematics has yet to develop an algorithm to solve a problem like this.
Alot of things that may seem easy to figure out, almost intuitive, remain to be unsolved in mathematics.
Because I can't throw out equations or mathematical formulas to prove something works, doesn't mean that it fails.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 24, 07:49 AM 2018There is no mathematical solution for determining the largest size sofa that can be moved in a hallway with a 90 degree turn. Seems simple, but has yet to be solved.
Its squishy. Push it. It will fit.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 24, 07:49 AM 2018A salesman wants to travel to several cities around the country, and return home in the shortest distance possible.
Go to the furthest point first and work your way back. I do it all the time looking at properties. If theres a discrepancy it doesnt matter.
None of this relates to roulette.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 24, 07:49 AM 2018But there may be something to using probability theory to make better bet selections
Better bet selections. Thats the right direction. But you can't do that with statistics. Roulette has cause and effect. Statistics is effect, not cause. Doesn't it make sense to focus on the cause?
Imagine someone would find something completly new how would AP-Players react:
some clues:
- If you don´t change the odds, ...
- There are still 37 pockets ...
- The houseedge will kill you ...
- I don´t understand pls explain more and more and more ....
- Do some more testing
- Math tells you can´t win in the long run
- Martingale is as old as the game (even if the strategy is flat bet)
- Your math is wrong
- You don´t understand probability
- I can´t see any difference to other systems ...
- Statistics are misleading
- It refers to the so called LOTT and that is a fantasy (even if it doesn´t)
- The poster is a scammer
- He is a systems seller
...
pls. add more boring same BlaBla to this list.
BTW: This is why forums don´t like AP-Players. You can´t reach their brain. Possibly they don´t have one.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018pls. add more boring same BlaBla to this list.
I do not think, that there are AP common reactions maybe few, but they are true...
But you not wrote the main reaction - which is the question - how you reach advantage?
That is main and all other goes from it.
How I reach advantage - I can say - I know several pockets to which ball will not hit near to 100%. So for me, odds say - 1/34 and from here is an advantage and that I can easily demonstrate, maybe on the simple wheel, at home, but can.
Till now no one system player does not show me predictions, which overcome 3STD or be less than 0.05 in chi-square test...
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 12:31 PM 2018
But you not wrote the main reaction - which is the question - how you reach advantage?
I answered that!
Did you read it?
Did any other AP read it?
Did anyone refer to it?
No, they just returned to one of the above mentioned statements. Or you returned to: pls explain it with 3 numbers.
I can predict 12 numbers which won´t appear in the next spin. Can you beat this? No? Then learn about probability. Do your Math studies.
Do you know what the advantage of AP-Players is and why they can´t afford free winning roulette-Systems?
Look here:
Option 1: Roulette Advantage Play E-book ($197)
Option 2: Advanced Techniques & Wheel Analysis Software (US$1,450)
add Option: that calculates ball speed and predicts the winning number. This version is normally $1250 when sold with the phone.
Automatic Online Casino Betting Bot (value $495)
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 12:43 PM 2018I can predict 12 numbers which won´t appear in the next spin.
Let's test this on mine wheel and I will prove , that you are not right :)
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 12:51 PM 2018
Let's test this on mine wheel and I will prove , that you are not right :)
Your wheel is biased
By the way: HOW DO YOU reach advantage? Where is it written? Where did you proof? Did you test it over min 1 million spins? Test more because your size-sample isn´t big enough.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 12:43 PM 2018Do you know what the advantage of AP-Players is and why they can´t afford free winning roulette-Systems?
Look here:
Option 1: Roulette Advantage Play E-book ($197)
Option 2: Advanced Techniques & Wheel Analysis Software (US$1,450)
add Option: that calculates ball speed and predicts the winning number. This version is normally $1250 when sold with the phone.
Automatic Online Casino Betting Bot (value $495)
I do not know which books you have in mind and why you here write prices. I can't predict 12 numbers but I can very easily show that you also cant.
But I can predict 3 maybe 4 numbers where the ball will not stand. Maybe not in 100% but in 98% for sure...
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 12:53 PM 2018Where is it written?
I simply that can show you. Show me what you claim - I will show what claim me :)
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 12:58 PM 2018
I simply that can show you. Show me what you claim - I will show what claim me :)
OK! Fair deal: I will show you if you show me!
Are you really that stupid? Do you think I´m crazy?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 12:57 PM 2018
I do not know which books you have in mind and why you here write prices. I can't predict 12 numbers but I can very easily show that you also cant.
But I can predict 3 maybe 4 numbers where the ball will not stand. Maybe not in 100% but in 98% for sure...
I can easily show you that you can´t predict 3 or 4 numbers.
Don´t you see that your words and answers are missing any sense and logic?
and what is with my answer that I can show shere my advantage is from? did you read it? did you understand? Why don´t you refer to that? Why don´t you argue that?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 01:15 PM 2018I can easily show you that you can´t predict 3 or 4 numbers.
talk is about number which will not appear
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 12:43 PM 2018I can predict 12 numbers which won´t appear in the next spin.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 01:15 PM 2018and what is with my answer that I can show shere my advantage is from? did you read it? did you understand? Why don´t you refer to that? Why don´t you argue that?
Show me and for all others, something that has some value, because till now are only words...that crosses must be. They must be, but question when? And this information that it must not have any value, because we not know when!
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 01:30 PM 2018
Show me and for all others, something that has some value, because till now are only words...that crosses must be. They must be, but question when? And this information that it must not have any value, because we not know when!
Pls go back and read my example:
37 - 0
36 - 1
35 - 2
....
19 - 18
18 - 19
btw: this shows that APs don´t read any answer you post to their questions.btw. You can read nearly everything about GUT on these forums:
every forum contains many threads many posts, many vids many trackers many descriptions many proofs many pictures.
vls.com
rouletteforum.cc
roulette-forum.de
x
dc-campus.net
and many other forums in many languages.
So I´ve already showed everything openly.
Now it is your turn to show how you get your advantage.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 01:26 PM 2018
talk is about number which will not appear
so did I!
And I can predict 25 numbers which contain the next number!
Why don't you guys pick an easier issue where minds are more flexible to argue about...like "abortion" or "religion" or "political parties"...with each you're more likely to get somebody to come around to your side than the AP v System player debate... :xd:
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 02:02 PM 2018so did I!
And I can predict 25 numbers which contain the next number!
So copy paste i do not know where you that done, what is more than simply - crosses must be ...
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 01:58 PM 2018btw: this shows that APs don´t read any answer you post to their questions.
btw. You can read nearly everything about GUT on these forums:
I that read
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 01:58 PM 201819 - 18
18 - 19
Explain how this can help !!!
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 02:08 PM 2018
Explain how this can help !!!
search for GUTCBA; download this tool; put in as many numbers as you like; prepare yourself to be amazed what is going on.
A full description comes with it.
(But hold in mind: this is Clinical Bet Advisor (CBA) no further rules are adapted.)
BTW where is your description of your advantage?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 02:07 PM 2018
I that read
If you didn´t understand I can´t help.
Quote from: Mako on Jul 24, 02:05 PM 2018
Why don't you guys pick an easier issue where minds are more flexible to argue about...like "abortion" or "religion" or "political parties"...with each you're more likely to get somebody to come around to your side than the AP v System player debate... :xd:
I´m so fed up with these brainless people I wil from now on kill them with their own instruments.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 02:14 PM 2018If you didn´t understand I can´t help.
Man, why for you do not say something simple, why to run from the direct answer?
How can help for us situation, that 18 numbers fall one time and 19 still not hit ???? What will be in next spin ? :)
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 02:21 PM 2018
Man, why for you do not say something simple, why to run from the direct answer?
How can help for us situation, that 18 numbers fall one time and 19 still not hit ???? What will be in next spin ? :)
Why do you run away from my answer and keep on asking stupid already answered answers?
Where is the description of your advantage?You don´t have to write it here just name the forum and the title!
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 02:13 PM 2018BTW where is your description of your advantage?
I do not have any description I simply measure ball and look how far go ball, then results run through chi-square test and if it shows less than some value I play and win mostly.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 02:27 PM 2018
.... then results run through chi-square test and if it shows less than some value I play and win mostly.
I do the same and win mostly. But AP-Players tell me there are still 37 pockets left. So you are on the same fallacy as me.
Do more testing. Youare bound to houseedge as well.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 02:34 PM 2018
I do the same and win mostly. But AP-Players tell me there are still 37 pockets left. So you are on the same fallacy as me.
Do more testing. Youare bound to houseedge as well.
Winkel is the simple solution as I suggested you - I translate you through skype you predict and I predict, the same spins and we look who predict more accurate. Why not do simply this?
Winkel - all that you talk are empty talks - you can't explain how situation 19-18 helps in GUT, I also maybe cant explain why I win. So best is all see practically. Do that once and all questions will be answered. Maybe for me are far till you like till the moon. I that not know I am not the super player and I lost very often, but I think that I win slightly more often. If you will show better results I will stand in first place to name you teacher...
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 02:51 PM 2018
Winkel - all that you talk are empty talks -
Thank you for the conversation!
Can you put thousands of posts in a nutshell?
Or can you explain in 10 words how your system works?
What should 1 game tell?
What do AP-Players tell the system players?:
Test it on MPR.
Tests on MPR tell nothing
Test sample size is not big enough
Test your system with just 1 spin. If you lose your system is proven wrong.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 02:51 PM 2018
... If you will show better results I will stand in first place to name you teacher...
there are people who call me Professor already. so this is no goal for me.
Look, Winkel , say we are not roulette players but say chess players. What we will be arguing with each other who knows more debuts, or who faster can gave mat with bishop and horse.
No, we that will not do - we simply will play at least one game and will look who will win.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 02:58 PM 2018there are people who call me Professor already.
So what, professor afraid student? Be man, play one time against mine wheel. I can promise, if you will show very bad results I will not write about that in forums...
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 03:07 PM 2018
So what, professor afraid student? Be man, play one time against mine wheel. I can promise, if you will show very bad results I will not write about that in forums...
I´ve done so many test games over the years there is no need for another one.
You didn´t read: download "GUTCBA" an you can play as many times as you want with your wheel and all your biased permanences.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 03:33 PM 2018You didn´t read: download "GUTCBA" an you can play as many times as you want with your wheel and all your biased permanences.
where I can download and what is that GUTCBA ?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 24, 03:37 PM 2018
where I can download and what is that GUTCBA ?
some posts before I explained it. Read before you post
Quotesearch for GUTCBA; download this tool; put in as many numbers as you like; prepare yourself to be amazed what is going on.
A full description comes with it.
(But hold in mind: this is Clinical Bet Advisor (CBA) no further rules are adapted.)
I cant get the direct answer to any mine question. I ask where - you start talk tales about what you write, who knows how much time before, I ask which benefit from 19-18 you again start some long stories about past times. Why you simply not answering why you simply not give address ...?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 02:13 PM 2018
search for GUTCBA; download this tool; put in as many numbers as you like; prepare yourself to be amazed what is going on.
A full description comes with it.
(But hold in mind: this is Clinical Bet Advisor (CBA) no further rules are adapted.)
BTW where is your description of your advantage?
some minutes ago
full description come with it
What the binomial distribution should tell you is that there's one or two too many numbers on the wheel for you to consistently exploit the random distribution of numbers.
Surely by now you should realize that you're wasting your time with the GUT nonsense.
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 04:28 PM 2018
What the binomial distribution should tell you is that there's one or two too many numbers on the wheel for you to consistently exploit the random distribution of numbers.
Surely by now you should realize that you're wasting your time with the GUT nonsense.
I bet that you waste much more time searching for a biased wheel with a chisquare of 350
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 04:34 PM 2018
I bet that you waste much more time searching for a biased wheel with a chisquare of 350
It takes all of 10 seconds to two minutes to spot a biased wheel. If you track enough spins the chi can go much higher than that.
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 04:56 PM 2018
It takes all of 10 seconds to two minutes to spot a biased wheel. If you track enough spins the chi can go much higher than that.
Two minutes to get an chisquare of 350? You are talking bullshit as high as the mount everest.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 04:58 PM 2018
Two minutes to get an chisquare of 350? You are talking bullshit as high as the mount everest.
No, sometimes only ten seconds to two minutes to spot the biased wheel. I don't usually track a wheel unless I know it's biased.
To get a chi square over 300 usually requires 7500 to 10k spins or more. I've gotten in the habit of hunting the best playing opportunities/casinos before finding the wheels these days.
Pay attention and you might learn something. ;)
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 05:08 PM 2018
No, sometimes only ten seconds to two minutes to spot the biased wheel. I don't usually track a wheel unless I know it's biased.
To get a chi square over 300 usually requires 7500 to 10k spins or more. I've gotten in the habit of hunting the best playing opportunities/casinos before finding the wheels these days.
Pay attention and you might learn something. ;)
But there are still 37 pockets left. No matter what biased the wheel is.
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 05:08 PM 2018
Pay attention and you might learn something. ;)
the only thing to learn from you is using tons of nicknames to annoy people with brainless posts telling nothing but brainfarts
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 05:14 PM 2018
the only thing to learn from you is using tons of nicknames to annoy people with brainless posts telling nothing but brainfarts
You know, some people call me professor. 8)
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 05:16 PM 2018You know, some people call me professor.
general you be the professor of copy and paste, that's all your be, the paste King
Quote from: nottophammer on Jul 24, 05:36 PM 2018
general you be the professor of copy and paste, that's all your be, the paste King
Hey,
I gotta be me! 8)
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 05:08 PM 2018
No, sometimes only ten seconds to two minutes to spot the biased wheel. I don't usually track a wheel unless I know it's biased.
To get a chi square over 300 usually requires 7500 to 10k spins or more. I've gotten in the habit of hunting the best playing opportunities/casinos before finding the wheels these days.
Pay attention and you might learn something. ;)
R u looking for visually broken wheel? Thats just kind of dreams for the people who still watch 60s vedio.
Best oppotunity? Whats that? Still 1/37 payout less.
Oh ya. When chinise people bet big on black u can bet small on red at best
Quote from: Madi on Jul 24, 05:47 PM 2018
R u looking for visually broken wheel? Thats just kind of dreams for the people who still watch 60s vedio.
Best oppotunity? Whats that? Still 1/37 payout less.
Oh ya. When chinise people bet big on black u can bet small on red at best
No, not broken wheels, but rather poorly assembled wheels.
The biggest win I was ever involved in was on a new wheel on the LV strip.
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 06:07 PM 2018
No, not broken wheels, but rather poorly assembled wheels.
The biggest win I was ever involved in was on a new wheel on the LV strip.
U look for two minutes and track poorly assembled wheel. People might get this kind of opportunity once in a lifetime. How do u get every now nd then? Seems to me US got some low quality casino , that might b the reason u r still surviving.
Quote from: Madi on Jul 24, 06:25 PM 2018
U look for two minutes and track poorly assembled wheel. People might get this kind of opportunity once in a lifetime. How do u get every now nd then? Seems to me US got some low quality casino , that might b the reason u r still surviving.
The Las Vegas Strip doesn't have low class casinos.
I know what to look for so I don't waste time writing spins.
Once I find the wheel, then we write spins to know the best numbers.
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 06:30 PM 2018
I know what to look for
Is that a secret to the casino?
I don't know what you're trying to say.
Why a casino will expose themselves to a player like u without having done a proper testing before launching their wheel?
Why they wont make sure that their wheel is delivering unpredictable outcome and free of all physical abnormalities?
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 05:08 PM 2018
No, sometimes only ten seconds to two minutes to spot the biased wheel. I don't usually track a wheel unless I know it's biased.
To get a chi square over 300 usually requires 7500 to 10k spins or more. I've gotten in the habit of hunting the best playing opportunities/casinos before finding the wheels these days.
Pay attention and you might learn something. ;)
So let me make sure I'm understanding this. First you are saying you can easily spot a defective wheel in less than 2 minutes. You can spot a defect that the dealer, who stares at the wheel all day cannot see...that the professionals in the casino cannot detect?
Ok, let's say you can find something the casino can't. Then what? Oh, you said you track numbers for 10k or more spins for a chi square test. If the average wheel gets about 25 spins per hour, it would take nearly 17 days tracking numbers for 24 hours a day. So, you or a few others just track numbers for several weeks totally undetected and not looking suspicious to the casino? Ok :yawn:
Ok, now that you found your bias numbers you're finally ready to put money down a few weeks later. So, now you'll place your bets on your bias numbers and play for thousands of spins....playing the same bet selection over and over. Surely, this will look suspicious that the same players making the same bet selection. Not to mention they have software tracking there own numbers.
So, we're supposed to believe that no one working the wheel will spot the defect? That it will not look suspicious as hell to the casino that people are tracking the same wheel for 24 hours a day for several weeks? That it will not raise red flags that someone plays for days constantly making the same bet selection? And that somehow your chi square results found a bias that the casinos own tracking software did not find?
Pretty hard to believe. Maybe worked in the 1970s. Why are you really pushing this myth so much? Are you selling something on the backend to players who don't know any better, or just trolling the forum? Casinos are not in the business of losing money, and you act as if none of this would not throw up big red flags.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 24, 07:58 AM 2018
Go to the furthest point first and work your way back. I do it all the time looking at properties. If theres a discrepancy it doesnt matter.
None of this relates to roulette.
It relates to math. I brought up the "traveling salesman problem" and the "moving sofa problem" to make a simple point. These are 2 problems that most people could figure out on their own. However, there are no mathematical solutions to either of these! Look it up. If someone uses a strategy that wins for them in roulette, they may not know how to formulate the mathematics behind it...but it still works ;)
Before 100 spins are made, I can tell you what will happen with a great deal of accuracy. I will tell you how many numbers will not show. I will tell you that how many times the hottest number will repeat. I can tell you how many 4 repeaters there will be before a 5th repeater will show up. I can tell you alot of things that will happen in those 100 spins.
Will I be 100% accurate on my predictions? Of course not...but I don't need to be. But with every 100 spin sample, my predictions will become more accurate as the samples average out.
Now, ask any random person on the street to give their predictions of what happens in 100 spins. Who's prediction will be better?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018- If you don´t change the odds, ...
If you dont change the odds, then your new approach doesn't work either. But at least you tried something new.
Don't you understand 36 is lower then 37?
You claim to hold secrets to math, but cant understand basics?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018There are still 37 pockets ..
It wouldnt matter if you changed the odds.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018- The houseedge will kill you ...
Not if you changed the odds.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018- I don´t understand pls explain more and more and more ....
Doesn't it make sense to make sure we understand something before addressing it?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018- Do some more testing
Shouldnt we test properly?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018Math tells you can´t win in the long run
If your bet selection has random accuracy, that's correct. That's what the math is. You claim to win with math, but dont understand basic math.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018- Martingale is as old as the game (even if the strategy is flat bet)
Does an old system mean it works?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018Your math is wrong
Yes well I explained my understanding of what GUT attempts to do, and you didnt correct it. So I'm left assuming my understanding was right, and that your method incorrectly assumes there are finite possibilities and spins will bend to your will, like in X spins, something will happen X times. And all along you forget the discrepancy between odds and payout.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018You don´t understand probability
You clearly dont. As above.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018I can´t see any difference to other systems ...
If your bet selection has the same accuracy as random, that's correct. Same as other systems.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018Statistics are misleading
Statistics are the past, but they can give clues to the future to predict it, but its only useful if you are changing the odds. Your approach doesnt change odds.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018pls. add more boring same BlaBla to this list.
It's only blabla to you because you dont have an answer for it.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 11:59 AM 2018BTW: This is why forums don´t like AP-Players. You can´t reach their brain. Possibly they don´t have one.
We (APs), casino staff, casino owners, statisticians, mathematicians, and the entire professional educated world gets it. You don't.
According to you, everyone is wrong, and you are right. If you could provide any substantiating information, that might be true. But you cant. You provided your logic, we pointed out the holes, and you got angry for that. Dont shoot the messenger.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 12:43 PM 2018I answered that!
Did you read it?
Did any other AP read it?
Did anyone refer to it?
I read it. Like I said, I explained my understanding of it, and why it doesnt work. You didnt respond to correct me, so I assume you have nothing further to support your theories. So we are left with my explanation of why your approach doesnt work.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 12:43 PM 2018I can predict 12 numbers which won´t appear in the next spin. Can you beat this? No? Then learn about probability. Do your Math studies.
So at some point, you can say with 100% certainty which 12 numbers WONT spin next? I'll call that. What a load of bullshit. Care to substantiate this claim? I doubt it.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 12:43 PM 2018Do you know what the advantage of AP-Players is and why they can´t afford free winning roulette-Systems?
Here you go winkel, free:
Roulette Wheel Bias:link:s://:.roulettephysics.com/roulette-wheel-bias/
Basic VB For Newbies:Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 01:58 PM 2018btw. You can read nearly everything about GUT on these forums:
Yes and I couldnt find one valid theory that can be used for an advantage. I did look, but I just found nonsense. Thats why I asked you to confirm my understanding or correct me. You didnt do either. You just rambled on complaining about APs.
Quote from: Madi on Jul 24, 05:47 PM 2018R u looking for visually broken wheel? Thats just kind of dreams for the people who still watch 60s vedio.
Read my page about bias analysis. It's only a fraction of what can be done. Not my preferred method, but still viable today if you know what to do.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 24, 07:42 PM 2018Pretty hard to believe. Maybe worked in the 1970s.
Actually you'd be quite appalled at the state of some wheels throughout the world. Well appalled if you work for casinos, and pleased if you're an AP. Some casinos have very good procedures, and some are really bad.
Anyway the viability of AP is not the issue here. At least for me, I'm still trying to understand:
* Why winkel believes his method works without changing the odds
* What, if anything, i am missing (he still hasnt explained it to me beyond vague comments)
Maybe lets take a step back. Simply what you've explained so far doesn't work, for reasons I explained.
Perhaps lets focus on WHY you think you can know for sure which 12 numbers WONT spin next. You know that would be changing the odds, right??
Please explain clear details.
QuoteSo let me make sure I'm understanding this. First you are saying you can easily spot a defective wheel in less than 2 minutes.
Yep. If I have good lighting it can take about 10 seconds though. ;)
QuoteYou can spot a defect that the dealer, who stares at the wheel all day cannot see...that the professionals in the casino cannot detect?
Yes, that's correct. Dealer's aren't trained to look at wheels and spot bias. Neither are pit bosses. After all, they're just dealers, and dealer's that were eventually promoted to pitboss. You think of dealer's as experts on the game. In reality they're your neighbor down the street that went to dealer's school that bakes apple pies on the weekend.
QuoteOk, let's say you can find something the casino can't. Then what? Oh, you said you track numbers for 10k or more spins for a chi square test. If the average wheel gets about 25 spins per hour, it would take nearly 17 days tracking numbers for 24 hours a day. So, you or a few others just track numbers for several weeks totally undetected and not looking suspicious to the casino? Ok :yawn:
In the US we get about 45 spins per hour on the live game. But yes, I sometimes use a few extra people to track. But no, we don't handwrite like you think. ;) Yes, it takes a while to get a relevant number of spins.
QuoteOk, now that you found your bias numbers you're finally ready to put money down a few weeks later. So, now you'll place your bets on your bias numbers and play for thousands of spins....playing the same bet selection over and over. Surely, this will look suspicious that the same players making the same bet selection. Not to mention they have software tracking there own numbers.
In some cases I/ we may play the same wheel off and on over years, mixing in some camoflauge here and there along the way. Other times we may destroy a wheel over 16 to 24 hours of nonstop play. Sometimes I just like a good kill.
QuoteSo, we're supposed to believe that no one working the wheel will spot the defect?
Yes, that's correct. Dealer's/pit bosses...they're idiots. Also, contrary to popular believe casinos don't throw out biased wheels. The reason they keep them is because they make money like the other wheels do. I could tell you that a wheel was biased and you'd still have very little chance of beating it. The reason is most people simply don't know how and have a very poor understanding of variance and what to expect. Besides most system junkies have a very short term mindset. ::)
QuoteThat it will not look suspicious as hell to the casino that people are tracking the same wheel for 24 hours a day for several weeks? That it will not raise red flags that someone plays for days constantly making the same bet selection? And that somehow your chi square results found a bias that the casinos own tracking software did not find?
Nope, they've got no idea we're even tracking the wheel. After all, we're not really using pen and paper as we're a bit more sophisticated than that. ;)
QuotePretty hard to believe. Maybe worked in the 1970s. Why are you really pushing this myth so much?
(link:s://i1.wp.com/:.urtech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/mean-santa.jpg?resize=250%2C271)
Well I think everyone should believe in Santa Claus. Don't you? By the way, the largest win, (well second largest since the first largest was a rigged wheel) happened in 2010 in the middle of LV Strip.
QuoteAre you selling something on the backend to players who don't know any better, or just trolling the forum? Casinos are not in the business of losing money, and you act as if none of this would not throw up big red flags.
Yes casinos sometimes get very upset when you win. I've probably been in more gaming investigations than you have been in casinos. And no, I'm not the international sales rep for anything related to biased wheels or visual ballistics even though I play both. ::)
Nothing will change with number of pockets. Change the variance.
Quote from: Scarface on Jul 24, 08:41 PM 2018
Nothing will change with number of pockets. Change the variance.
Swap the word
"variance" with the word luck and you'll understand how that's a foolish idea. "Change the
luck."
Biased number hit more frequently than the other numbers because of physical reasons, so the distribution of hits in the long run is skewed.
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 08:33 PM 2018
Yep. If I have good lighting it can take about 10 seconds though. ;)
Does Ur casino got loadshedding?
Yes, that's correct. Dealer's aren't trained to look at wheels and spot bias. Neither are pit bosses.
So where the casino trained staffs are?
After all, they're just dealers, and dealer's that were eventually promoted to pitboss. You think of dealer's as experts on the game. In reality they're your neighbor down the street that went to dealer's school that bakes apple pies on the weekend.
In the US we get about 45 spins per hour on the live game. But yes, I sometimes use a few extra people to track. But no, we don't handwrite like you think. ;) Yes, it takes a while to get a relevant number of spins.
In some cases I/ we may play the same wheel off and on over years,
Good to know that year after year they left it for u to exploit without any testing.
mixing in some camoflauge here and there along the way. Other times we may destroy a wheel over 16 to 24 hours of nonstop play. Sometimes I just like a good kill.Yes, that's correct. Dealer's/pit bosses...they're idiots. Also, contrary to popular believe casinos don't throw out biased wheels. The reason they keep them is because they make money like the other wheels do.
Whats if they fix it and suck the money out of ur pocket plus other peoples money. And how can u assume that others playing beside u r not better ap than u and can destroy the wheel if countermeasure not taken
I could tell you that a wheel was biased and you'd still have very little chance of beating it. The reason is most people simply don't know how and have a very poor understanding of variance and what to expect. Besides most system junkies have a very short term mindset. ::)
Nope, they've got no idea we're even tracking the wheel. After all, we're not really using pen and paper as we're a bit more sophisticated than that. ;)
Still that takes times
(link:s://i1.wp.com/:.urtech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/mean-santa.jpg?resize=250%2C271)
Well I think everyone should believe in Santa Claus. Don't you? By the way, the largest win, (well second largest since the first largest was a rigged wheel) happened in 2010 in the middle of LV Strip.
Was that $500 or u want people to ask u how much?
Yes casinos sometimes get very upset when you win. I've probably been in more gaming investigations than you have been in casinos.
Some addict live in casino. Doesnt mean they r great player bcz they spent much more time.
And no, I'm not the international sales rep for anything related to biased wheels or visual ballistics even though I play both. ::)
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 08:45 PM 2018
Swap the word "variance" with the word luck and you'll understand how that's a foolish idea. "Change the luck."
Why dont u change the name of “ poorly assssssssembleeeed wheel†a pure “luckâ€. What some ap can never seen in their lifetime just saw on 60s vedio.
Quote from: Madi on Jul 24, 09:07 PM 2018
Why dont u change the name of “ poorly assssssssembleeeed wheel†a pure “luckâ€. What some ap can never seen in their lifetime just saw on 60s vedio.
Well I'm the luckiessssst person you will everrrr meeeet then because I've found a gazillion of themz. ::)
(link:s://tucker.liberty.me/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/07/hippie-bus.jpg)
The 60s rule!
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 08:33 PM 2018
(link:s://i1.wp.com/:.urtech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/mean-santa.jpg?resize=250%2C271)
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/24/temp_779666.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/2Jd4V)
I'm starting to see a trot.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 24, 08:25 PM 2018
Maybe lets take a step back. Simply what you've explained so far doesn't work, for reasons I explained.
So we are starting the roundabout again?
This is no debate as long as your "reasons" are only these AP´s BLABLA and you didn´t read the GUT-Threads properly.
I showed a graph where you can see that there are crossings. there are crossings in every sequence. I simply bet these crossings to cross.
Is this so difficult to understand?
And now: Which of your reasons did refer to this statistical phnenomenon? "NONE"
Did you proof, that they won´t cross at a rate, that allows an advantage?
Did you proof that in a sequence (where normally several crossings appear) it is not possible to gain an advantage even if some crossings are not to cross yet?
No. All of your answers are just (read my previous post of AP´s argumentation pool of BLABLA)
Did you also downöload GUTCBA? DID you just look at "What is going on" Just to get an idea of the basics? I bet NO!
QuoteRoulette Wheel Bias:
link:s://:.roulettephysics.com/roulette-wheel-bias/
It seems that you have never seen any homepage of the wheel suppliers.
Nowadays (perhaps not in USA where they go back to 1488) every wheel is connected to a computer.
Not only to show the spins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are statistics and permanently running CHIsquare tests. Every computer would stop a wheel if it was biased.
(See homepages of Cammegh for example)
You will stand beside the wheels for decades and not find any biased wheel to bet on.
If you luckily find one, the next day it will be fixed or replaced.
Cammegh and huxley wheel analysis software is bare-bones. It does not find a bias before a modern bias players. You really know nothing on this point.
As for your line crossings, they appear to be basic probability. Like how within 37 spins, there will be a certain number of repeats. That doesnt help. You are not changing odds. I did read about gut, but i couldnt find anything valid so far.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 03:42 AM 2018
Cammegh and huxley wheel analysis software is bare-bones.
You can´t give a different reply. Otherwise you had to stop selling stupid items.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 03:42 AM 2018
You really know nothing on this point.
Another typical AP BLABLA answer. If you are caught try to ruin the others reputation. But it is not an valid argument in a debate.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 03:42 AM 2018
As for your line crossings, they appear to be basic probability. Like how within 37 spins, there will be a certain number of repeats. That doesnt help. You are not changing odds. I did read about gut, but i couldnt find anything valid so far.
It helps.
No it doesn´t change odds.
It got ntohing to do with repeaters to appear or not appear.
That you can´t find anything valid doesn´t rely ont GUT it relies on the lack of intelligence on your side
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 03:50 AM 2018
Another typical AP BLABLA answer. If you are caught try to ruin the others reputation. But it is not an valid argument in a debate.
You didn't read my page about bias analysis. And you have no experience with ap. Thats why your understanding is blabla.
Winkel im not trying to ruin your reputation. I'm just trying to determine if gut has any merit. You don't need to be so dramatic. The world isn't out to destroy you.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 03:52 AM 2018It helps.
No it doesn´t change odds.
Winkel it cannot help if it doesn't change the odds.
If you bet $1 on a coin toss and average a win 50% of the time, but are paid only $0.90, then the payout is unfair.
So HOW could you overcome it?? Voodoo? Or maybe win more often than 50%?? (Changing the odds).
Then you say you can guarantee that 12 specific numbers won't spin next. You say it isn't changing the odds, but i don't think you even understand this basic point. I asked for an explanation, and you got angry.
To say you don't change the odds, but that gut helps, is contradictory. Me saying this it's not an attack on you or your reputation. Im merely addressing what you said.
Now my very last try to explain the basics:
look at the graph:
If we have the basic situation of 19 unhit and 18 hit we can be sure, that there will be a situation coming up with 18 unhit 19 hit.
This is what I call crossing. If you look at the graph the line representing the unhit and the line representing the hit do cross when this situation appears.
No matter what you try to blabla will change this fact. It doesn´t change odds it doesn´t change payouts it got nothing to do with repeaters or sleepers (solely). It is there it will be there for ever.
You can´t argue this fact. Can you?
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 04:18 AM 2018
Winkel it cannot help if it doesn't change the odds.
So HOW could you overcome it?? Voodoo? Or maybe win more often than 50%?? (Changing the odds).
Then you say you can guarantee that 12 specific numbers won't spin next. You say it isn't changing the odds, but i don't think you even understand this basic point. I asked for an explanation, and you got angry.
To say you don't change the odds, but that gut helps, is contradictory. Me saying this it's not an attack on you or your reputation. Im merely addressing what you said.
Winning more than 50% doesn´t mean to change the odds it is just the ability to bet when a win is more probable.
The odds are in the rules of the game (by the way we are talking about roulette not cointoss) and if I´m intelligent I can beat the odds without changing them.
look at your friend recently known as The General he is claiming to detect a biased wheel in seconds. Ask him to explain and proof! If you don´t and he is not explaining why should I.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 04:18 AM 2018
And you have no experience with ap.
Winkel im not trying to ruin your reputation.
How do you know that I don´t know about AP? And just claiming so isn´t that killing my reputation. Just telling I´m dumb without knowing me and my knowledge.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 04:41 AM 2018bet when a win is more probable.
Thats changing the odds. So with a coin, instead of 50% odds you bet when its 55%.
I have no idea how you dont understand that.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 04:41 AM 2018I can beat the odds without changing them.
You dont know what you're saying.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 04:35 AM 2018If we have the basic situation of 19 unhit and 18 hit we can be sure, that there will be a situation coming up with 18 unhit 19 hit.
That information is useless. Its no different to saying there will be a time 10 reds have won. So what?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 04:45 AM 2018How do you know that I don´t know about AP?
Because i do know, and what youve said is incorrect.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 04:18 AM 2018
Then you say you can guarantee that 12 specific numbers won't spin next. You say it isn't changing the odds, but i don't think you even understand this basic point. I asked for an explanation, and you got angry.
First bebedicktus claimed to know three or four numbers that won´t appear.
Nobody asked him to proof. He just claims to be an AP-Player and you believe him.
That his claim is senseless without proof I answered I could guarantee 12 numbers will not appear.
And all AP-people say I´m claiming something without proof.
Who was first to start a senseless debate? Me or the AP-people?
I just cover your kind of argumentation.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 04:49 AM 2018
Thats changing the odds. So with a coin, instead of 50% odds you bet when its 55%.
I have no idea how you dont understand that.
You dont know what you're saying.
That information is useless. Its no different to saying there will be a time 10 reds have won. So what?
Because i do know, and what youve said is incorrect.
You argue: winkel doesn´t change the odds
I answer: No I don´t
You answer: but you have to change the odds to win
I answer: I win cause I know when to bet
You answer: Then you do change the odds.
I say no I don´t change odds I just win.
Who is sitting in a roundabaout not knowing what he is saying. Who is caught in contradiction?
QuoteThat information is useless. Its no different to saying there will be a time 10 reds have won. So what?
That is your lack of intelligence proofed.
I´m not talking about cointoss, I´´m not talking about even chances I´m talking about 37 possible random results and how they move from no hit to all hit.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 04:49 AM 2018
Because i do know, and what youve said is incorrect.
And the Earth is flat.
This is not a evidence this just another try to kill the reputation of the opponent.
You can´t proof, you won´t proof you just claim it. You will repeat your claim till everybody believes it. No matter if its true or not.
Or use the chance to proof, that I know nothing about AP. I´m waiting.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 04:49 AM 2018
That information is useless.
But I use it to win. so it might be useless for the world for me it works.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 04:51 AM 2018First bebedicktus claimed to know three or four numbers that won´t appear.
I didnt read that. If he said that i wouldnt believe it either. He understands logic. You probably just misunderstood him. His english isnt great.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 04:57 AM 2018You argue: winkel doesn´t change the odds
I answer: No I don´t
You answer: but you have to change the odds to win
I answer: I win cause I know when to bet
You answer: Then you do change the odds.
I say no I don´t change odds I just win.
Who is sitting in a roundabaout not knowing what he is saying. Who is caught in contradiction?
You are. Youre not even understanding the basic parts, you really are lost, so theres no point to continue.
Don't fret it Winkel, Steve knows GUT. He said he is close to a holy grail as he follows a trot on the Turbo thread. As far as I have read on all forums, the trot is attributed to Winkel and GUT more than any other person, idea or association. He just has to put up a front for various reasons.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 25, 06:05 AM 2018He said he is close to a holy grail as he follows a trot on the Turbo thread
I said what??
Nimo you dont understand either. Its best i just leave you guys to learn for yourself.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 05:37 AM 2018
You are. Youre not even understanding the basic parts, you really are lost, so theres no point to continue.
But I said all your claims are right. There are 37 pockets there is a odd there is a unfair payout.
So what didn´t I understand?
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 08:33 PM 2018Yep. If I have good lighting it can take about 10 seconds though.
OK smart-arse, tell me what the defect is with this wheel.
I know the answer, so you cant bullshit me
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/25/temp_273681.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/2JfyD)
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 06:35 AM 2018
I said what??
Nimo you dont understand either. Its best i just leave you guys to learn for yourself.
Doing a search this comes up that you posted
Actually I'm working on a martingale variant to apply when I figure the trot. It's almost done. I'll publish a 37 spin chart from RS as proof.
Trot and Steve
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 06:35 AM 2018
Its best i just leave you guys to learn for yourself.
What can I learn from someone sitting on a roundabout repeating the same sentences again and again?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 07:51 AM 2018What can I learn from someone sitting on a roundabout repeating the same sentences again and again?
:thumbsup:
I am looking at both of your arguments.
From a physics point of view, the wheel is biased and you can eliminate a sector, say 10 pockets. So I can see that you say you have changed the odds using physics.
From a probability point of view. When you have 18 hits and 19 non hit numbers you can eliminate 18 or 19 numbers and concentrate on the numbers you have chosen. This also in a way changes the odds from a probability point of view.
Both methods give a target to aim for. Personally, I am not interested in AP methods and enjoy system based methods. As for the OP’s question.
I belong to an over unity forum where people are interested in perpetual motion machines. Every now and then someone comes along to help us to see that perpetual motion is unachievable. They always get told to feckoff. We know the physics. We know we are wasting our time. But that’s what we choose to do.
If there was a forum for system players and AP players would not be tolerated there, I would join yesterday.
Advantage Players also deal with random parameters and have problems.
Why do you think so many quit using visual ballistics?
10 years ago you started to see reports from VB players that the scatter patterns are too wide and erratic, ball jumps that spread over half the wheel and there is no bias pattern to emerge.
Then comes reports about finding tilt wheels, where 2 vertical deflectors hit with regularity, those games start to become rarer than common.
And reports about Nylon balls.
Today's wheel is more difficult to beat then in the old days.
You win the lottery if you find a 2 vertical deflector bias in a casino today.
Might get lucky and see a temporarily two vertical deflectors bias, but not with regularity eight to nine times out of ten.
At best you might find a 3 vertical deflector bias that reduces your edge to nothing and not worth playing.
Cheers
Quote from: Steve on Jul 25, 05:37 AM 2018
Quote (selected)
Quote from: winkel on Today at 08:51 AM
First bebedicktus claimed to know three or four numbers that won´t appear.
I didnt read that. If he said that i wouldnt believe it either. He understands logic. You probably just misunderstood him. His english isnt great.
I cant prove, but i can show i will name in every spin - 4 numbers - if they are random, they must appear about 1/9 so 1 time from 9 spins. They, of course, will appear, but they will appear maybe one time per 30 spins.
These 4 numbers I will name when till the end of spin is left say 12 sec.
On mine wheel i can show maybe even some more interesting things, say i can name half wheel which will lose against opposite side, so opposite side always will be the leader in hits.
Winkel, i asked you super simple questtion
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 04:35 AM 2018If we have the basic situation of 19 unhit and 18 hit we can be sure, that there will be a situation coming up with 18 unhit 19 hit.
This is what I call crossing. If you look at the graph the line representing the unhit and the line representing the hit do cross when this situation appears.
Show how this helps for winning, 1-19 was unhit and 20-37 was hit - that is your starting point. Show how from this you get the benefit. That is only what i ask. Say what you bet in next few moves . You do not change odds - so next spins results can be every number. So how you get from that benefit ?
Is that so hard to say in some simple examples?
Guys all is very simple - connect with me on skype - I translate wheel you do bets. If your bets win more, than say mathematic - all is solved - you are the professor of this game and I will bend head against you.
I do not have any aim to scoff - opposite I want to know something more, what I can use in mine play.
Why most system and some AP pseudo player afraid such test through skype? I not afraid, I know that sometimes I can predict bad and I will be happy, if somebody points me to mine mistakes.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 25, 08:49 AM 2018
Show how this helps for winning, 1-19 was unhit and 20-37 was hit - that is your starting point. Show how from this you get the benefit. That is only what i ask. Say what you bet in next few moves . You do not change odds - so next spins results can be every number. So how you get from that benefit ?
Is that so hard to say in some simple examples?
1. There is no sequence of random roulette numbers in the world where this situation 19-18 will stand forever.
It has to change to 18-19. this is fact this is for sure. It has to cross and it will cross.
2. Your odds 19/37 vs. 18/37. Which are better odds?
3. ofcourse in the long run you will win 19 bets out of 37 and lose 18 bets out of 37.
so statistics help:
start with watching not with betting:
19 lost
19 won
19 lost
19 lost
19 lost
19 won
19 lost
19 lost
19 lost
now do a chisquaretest. if the chi suits you start betting.
The difference of 1 (e.g. 19-18) or 0 (e.g. 18-18) is the nearest situation to the next crossing. Isn´t that a good roadsign?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 09:15 AM 20181. There is no sequence of random roulette numbers in the world where this situation 19-18 will stand forever.
It has to change to 18-19. this is fact this is for sure. It has to cross and it will cross.
That will cross that is clear, not clear how from that get benefit.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 09:15 AM 20182. Your odds 19/37 vs. 18/37
Ods for what ? if I bet 19 numbers which still not hit I have 19/37 to be hit and on such bet, I lost in average 2.7% of total bet in every bet - that I can do in any spin when I cover 19 pockets. Till now nothing promising.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 09:15 AM 20183. of course in the long run you will win 19 bets out of 37 and lose 18 bets out of 37.
Yes, when I bet 19 numbers I will win 19 times in 37 on average, but that will be always when I do any 19 numbers bet.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 09:15 AM 2018so statistics help:
still not see how it helps...
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 09:15 AM 2018start with watching not with betting:
19 lost
19 won
19 lost
19 lost
19 lost
19 won
19 lost
19 lost
19 lost
now do a chisquaretest. if the chi suits you start betting.
After this, I have 17-20 on what I must calculate chi-square?
Show me on this example what you get, or when you bet when not...
Till now I all see as betting red/ black if I see 10 reds in the row I know that reds must some time stop hit and star hit black, but which is benefit from this knowledge?
So again: search for GUTCBA put numbers in and watch.
And hopefully understand.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 25, 09:41 AM 2018
Yes, when I bet 19 numbers I will win 19 times in 37 on average, but that will be always when I do any 19 numbers bet.still not see how it helps..
It would be nice if you read what I write:
QuoteThe most simple explanation!
Attention this is not the betting rule, this is not the strategy, this is not a betting point. It is just the principle:
If we start betting our game starts with 37 unhit numbers.
After the first spin 1 number hits and the count is now
37 unhit 1 hit
after the next spin another number hits and the count is now
36 unhit 2 hit
if we follow the game we will definitely come to a point where the count is
19 unhit 18 hit
It is the nature of the game that in one of the next spins this count will change to
18 unhit to 19 hit
This principle you can transfer to
unhit vs hit
once hit vs more than once hit
twice hit vs more than twice hit
and so on.
and pls comment when you read the whole post not every sentence that makes no sense during an explanation.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 09:46 AM 2018So again: search for GUTCBA put numbers in and watch.
And hopefully understand.
So what - is so hard to show on example? Where is the problem? When we have situation 19-18 we cant bet? But you always explained that we bet on such situation, because near the cross.
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 25, 09:55 AM 2018and pls comment when you read the whole post not every sentence that makes no sense during an explanation.
I nothing comment, i want to understand what you want to say, why you come to situation 19-18 and stop?
I do not see any advantage in this situation. We talk about the same too long. If your limit is only that 19-18 must cross to 18-19 and that is all - then no sense to talk - we not know when that will happen so we cant have benefit from that. If we can, then show how ?
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
50 33 W * End of Session +102
49 29 L 7 20 10 5 5 =2: 6 12 21 32 33 5 +66
48 22 L 7 20 10 5 5 =2: 6 12 21 32 33 5 +71
47 20 7 20 10 6 4 =0: 10 15 16 26 30 35 36 7 +76
46 19 8 19 10 6 4
45 18 W 9 18 10 6 4 +83
44 13 W 10 17 10 6 4 =0: 10 15 16 18 19 20 26 30 35 36 10 +47
43 6 L 11 16 10 6 4 =0: 10 13 15 16 18 19 20 26 30 35 36 11 +21
42 11 L 11 17 9 5 4 =2: 12 21 22 32 33 5 +32
41 33 L 12 16 9 5 4 =2: 12 21 22 32 33 5 +37
40 32 12 17 8 4 4 =2: 12 21 22 32 4 +42
39 32 12 18 7 3 4
38 9 13 17 7 3 4
37 3 W 14 16 7 3 4 +46
36 5 15 15 7 3 4 =0: 3 9 10 11 13 15 16 18 19 20 26 30 32 35 36 15 +10
35 8 16 14 7 3 4
34 1 W 17 13 7 3 4 +25
33 34 L 17 13 7 4 3 =2: 1 12 21 22 4 -11
32 21 L 18 12 7 4 3 =2: 1 12 21 22 4 -7
31 25 18 13 6 3 3 =2: 1 12 22 3 -3
30 24 18 13 6 4 2
29 28 19 12 6 4 2
28 25 19 12 6 5 1
27 2 19 13 5 4 1
26 29 20 12 5 4 1
25 1 20 12 5 4 1
24 22 20 13 4 3 1
23 29 20 14 3 2 1
22 23 20 14 3 2 1
21 22 21 13 3 2 1
20 0 22 12 3 2 1
19 28 23 11 3 2 1
18 29 23 12 2 1 1
17 12 23 12 2 1 1
16 4 23 13 1 1
15 29 24 12 1 1
14 6 24 12 1 1
13 1 25 11 1 1
12 29 26 10 1 1
11 21 26 11
10 17 27 10
9 14 28 9
8 29 29 8
7 12 30 7
6 7 31 6
5 31 32 5
4 33 33 4
3 28 34 3
2 27 35 2
1 25 36 1
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 09:46 AM 2018
So again: search for GUTCBA put numbers in and watch.
Where is that?
Links on "another" forum don't work anymore and forward to a page that doesn't exist anymore, with some link poiting to genuinewinner....
Does it got deleted, or just old links?
Here it is.
All merits go to KonFuSed
ok winning session, but in some places different numbers can change all.
So for me, all looks like luck.
How that is different say from such mine bets on spin one i bet nr 25 1 unit and after the win on second spin all bet on 27 because of 27=25+2 and after second hit I have 1296 - very impressive but how often such will be?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 25, 10:47 AM 2018
ok winning session, but in some places different numbers can change all.
What else should you answer. As long as you are not willing (able?) to study and learn "what is going on" you better bet on ECs. that is your size of understanding
second sentence of yours is just redicolous.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 25, 10:55 AM 2018What else should you answer. As long as you are not willing (able?) to study and learn "what is going on" you better bet on ECs. that is your size of understanding
Ok you are the greatest payer, then only one question - this way like you show now how you win - can do every, why you so smart player afraid to test your abilities on some EC player wheel ??
Where there is the reason ?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 25, 11:01 AM 2018
Where there is the reason ?
There is no need.
Now you can download GUTCBA take your wheel and test 300 billion spins. it doesn´t need me.
QuoteNow you can download GUTCBA take your wheel and test 300 billion spins. it doesn´t need me.
Thanks
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
1 17 36 1
2 24 35 2
3 29 34 3
4 5 33 4
5 12 32 5
6 22 31 6
7 24 31 5 1 1
8 26 30 6 1 1
9 2 29 7 1 1
10 26 29 6 2 2
11 24 29 6 2 1 1
12 0 28 7 2 1 1
13 14 27 8 2 1 1
14 12 27 7 3 2 1
15 33 26 8 3 2 1
16 28 25 9 3 2 1
17 31 24 10 3 2 1
18 32 23 11 3 2 1
19 33 23 10 4 3 1
20 11 22 11 4 3 1
21 17 22 10 5 4 1
22 12 22 10 5 3 2
23 22 22 9 6 4 2
24 23 21 10 6 4 2
25 26 21 10 6 3 3 =2: 17 22 33 3 -3
26 18 L 20 11 6 3 3 =2: 17 22 33 3 -6
27 8 L 19 12 6 3 3 =2: 17 22 33 3 -9
28 28 L 19 11 7 4 3 =2: 17 22 28 33 4 -13
29 2 L 19 10 8 5 3 -13
30 19 18 11 8 5 3
31 27 17 12 8 5 3
32 8 17 11 9 6 3
33 11 17 10 10 7 3 =1: 0 5 14 18 19 23 27 29 31 32 10 -23
34 32 W 17 9 11 8 3 =1: 0 5 14 18 19 23 27 29 31 9 +4
35 11 L 17 9 11 7 4 +4
36 9 16 10 11 7 4
37 12 16 10 11 7 4
38 20 15 11 11 7 4 =1: 0 5 9 14 18 19 20 23 27 29 31 11 -7
39 3 L 14 12 11 7 4 =1: 0 3 5 9 14 18 19 20 23 27 29 31 12 -19
40 16 L 13 13 11 7 4 =0: 1 4 6 7 10 13 15 21 25 30 34 35 36 13 -32
41 27 L 13 12 12 8 4 =0: 1 4 6 7 10 13 15 21 25 30 34 35 36 13 -45
42 5 L 13 11 13 9 4 =0: 1 4 6 7 10 13 15 21 25 30 34 35 36 13 -58
43 19 L 13 10 14 10 4 =1: 0 3 9 14 16 18 20 23 29 31 10 -68
44 15 L 12 11 14 10 4 =0: 1 4 6 7 10 13 21 25 30 34 35 36 12 -80
45 23 L 12 10 15 11 4 =0: 1 4 6 7 10 13 21 25 30 34 35 36 12 -92
46 6 W 11 11 15 11 4 =0: 1 4 7 10 13 21 25 30 34 35 36 11 -67
47 13 W 10 12 15 11 4 =1: 0 3 6 9 13 14 15 16 18 20 29 31 12 -43
48 29 W 10 11 16 12 4 -7
49 30 9 12 16 12 4 =1: 0 3 6 9 13 14 15 16 18 20 30 31 12 -19
50 33 L * End of Session -19
First test
Bebediktus,
what I will write could be completely wrong, as I'm not very used to GUT (at least, yet).
I've downloaded and entered some spins on GUTCBA.
It simply alert on a possible crossing, meaning, left side of comparison is +1 than the right side.
This is not enough.
This does not tell if the game is following an usual / normal "way".
Decisions should be supported by other aspects, not only if (x > y) and (x-y = 1)..
You have to do 300km trip. High Way.
Average speed 100km / h.
If after 2 hours you made only 150 km, than you're going slower than expected. Don't call right now to reserve your lunch on the restaurant.
If after 2 hours you've made 250km, should you make the call now?
Again, I can be wrong with these statements!
;)
Ahlidap, you are right.
But bebediktus won´t care, because he is an AP and so he is trying to proof it wrong. As you can see he is not able to study and not willing to read the explanations.
Again: This tool is a Clinical Bet Adviser. It takes the principle rules and bets every crossing. An experienced player wouldn´t do.
example:
34 32 W 17 9 11 8 3 this is a hole. Stop betting if a hole appears.
38 20 15 11 11 7 4 =1: 0 5 9 14 18 19 20 23 27 29 31 these are double crossings. Don´t bet DC´s
41 27 L 13 12 12 8 4 =0: 1 4 6 7 10 13 15 21 25 30 34 35 36 this is just playing a Dozen don´t do, there is no positive odd
and many more statements to give. But it is senseless, he won´t understand nor accept.
Quote from: ahlidap on Jul 25, 11:59 AM 2018Bebediktus,
what I will write could be completely wrong, as I'm not very used to GUT (at least, yet).
I've downloaded and entered some spins on GUTCBA.
It simply alert on a possible crossing, meaning, left side of comparison is +1 than the right side.
This is not enough.
No matter if that enough or not. Main moment of all method - it keeps that past number influence to next numbers, but i know that it is not right. I thought before, that maybe method slight catch some bias elements, but looks that not.
I himself some time ago created something like the system, which has expectation sure higher than -2.7%, but it is based on bias elements and on something more. So i think, that GUT also has something, maybe slight it catches some bias, but , I think not enough.
Quote from: Turner on Jul 25, 07:18 AM 2018
OK smart-arse, tell me what the defect is with this wheel.
I know the answer, so you cant bullshit me
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/25/temp_273681.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/2JfyD)
I guess its not enough spins to answer.
Quote from: Nimo on Jul 26, 10:02 AM 2018I guess its not enough spins to answer.
matter not in spins. Say if about me - I know this person personaly and think, that there is no place to talk what on his wheels are bad. Some defects he even made special, that videos will be more impressive...
Quote from: Turner on Jul 25, 07:18 AM 2018
OK smart-arse, tell me what the defect is with this wheel.
I know the answer, so you cant bullshit me
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/25/temp_273681.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/2JfyD)
Theres a negative bias likely between 31 and 3. Depending on rotor direction, there will be positive bias just outside this arc.
Quote from: Steve on Jul 26, 01:07 PM 2018
Theres a negative bias likely between 31 and 3. Depending on rotor direction, there will be positive bias just outside this arc.
I see why you said that but look a little closer. You will kick yourself when I tell you.
10 seconds....Caleb said he could spot a defect.
This puzzle has been up 2 days. He hasnt responded. He is baffled
It took me months of reading up on respected biased wheel books (not Caleb's BTW) to spot defects like-a-diss
Quote from: Turner on Jul 25, 07:18 AM 2018
OK smart-arse, tell me what the defect is with this wheel.
I know the answer, so you cant bullshit me
(link:://:.pichost.org/images/2018/07/25/temp_273681.png) (link:://:.pichost.org/image/2JfyD)
id like to phone a friend
Quote from: RouletteGhost on Jul 26, 07:37 PM 2018
id like to phone a friend
Who will be Caleb, after you meet soon :thumbsup:
i must meet him so he can show me how an airball wheel can be biased ::)
or flawed
Quote from: Turner on Jul 26, 07:32 PM 2018It took me months of reading up on respected biased wheel books (not Caleb's BTW) to spot defects like-a-diss
Reading books here cannot help. You simply must know, what you must see that wheel will be biased. Are three main kinds of biases, one most common, it possible recognize visually. Plus can be some visual noticiable wheel defects like physical violations ...
More - remember that there is not the system and are no some strong rules - every detect what see, what notice,
Every play bias very different. I am not bias player, but sometimes play something similar to that. I name that temporary or migrating bias, what really can be no real bias. I play that by one small reason - sometimes that give very nice profit with so small and simple efforts.
So what you name bias and what name as bias Caleb, can be very different...
@bebediktus
did you further testings? Or did you stop because of winnings?
Quote from: winkel on Jul 27, 05:46 AM 2018@bebediktus
did you further testings? Or did you stop because of winnings?
Unfortunately, I lost 5 times with only one win. Not me of course - that program...
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
1 5 36 1
2 19 35 2
3 25 34 3
4 12 33 4
5 36 32 5
6 21 31 6
7 21 31 5 1 1
8 5 31 4 2 2
9 11 30 5 2 2
10 32 29 6 2 2
11 14 28 7 2 2
12 34 27 8 2 2
13 23 26 9 2 2
14 26 25 10 2 2
15 35 24 11 2 2
16 12 24 10 3 3
17 16 23 11 3 3
18 10 22 12 3 3
19 20 21 13 3 3
20 13 20 14 3 3
21 23 20 13 4 4
22 11 20 12 5 5
23 24 19 13 5 5
24 21 19 13 5 4 1
25 5 19 13 5 3 2 =2: 11 12 23 3 -3
26 4 L 18 14 5 3 2 =2: 11 12 23 3 -6
27 22 L 17 15 5 3 2 =2: 11 12 23 3 -9
28 34 L 17 14 6 4 2 -9
29 10 17 13 7 5 2
30 17 16 14 7 5 2
31 22 16 13 8 6 2
32 23 16 13 8 5 3
33 29 15 14 8 5 3 =0: 0 1 2 3 6 7 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 15 -24
34 13 L 15 13 9 6 3 -24
35 7 14 14 9 6 3 =0: 0 1 2 3 6 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 14 -38
36 23 L 14 14 9 6 3 =0: 0 1 2 3 6 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 14 -52
37 11 L 14 14 9 5 4 =2: 10 12 13 22 34 5 -57
38 29 L 14 13 10 6 4 =0: 0 1 2 3 6 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 14 -71
39 16 L 14 12 11 7 4 =1: 4 7 14 17 19 20 24 25 26 32 35 36 12 -83
40 34 L 14 12 11 6 5 =1: 4 7 14 17 19 20 24 25 26 32 35 36 12 -95
41 3 L 13 13 11 6 5 =0: 0 1 2 6 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 13 -108
42 1 W 12 14 11 6 5 =0: 0 2 6 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 12 -84
43 19 L 12 13 12 7 5 =1: 1 3 4 7 14 17 20 24 25 26 32 35 36 13 -97
44 11 L 12 13 12 7 5 =1: 1 3 4 7 14 17 20 24 25 26 32 35 36 13 -110
45 19 L 12 13 12 6 6 =0: 0 2 6 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 12 -122
46 29 L 12 13 12 5 7 =1: 1 3 4 7 14 17 20 24 25 26 32 35 36 13 -135
47 22 L 12 13 12 4 8 =1: 1 3 4 7 14 17 20 24 25 26 32 35 36 13 -148
48 21 L 12 13 12 4 8 =0: 0 2 6 8 9 15 18 27 28 30 31 33 12 -160
49 30 W 11 14 12 4 8 -124
50 36 * End of Session
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
1 27 36 1
2 23 35 2
3 8 34 3
4 2 33 4
5 19 32 5
6 16 31 6
7 23 31 5 1 1
8 12 30 6 1 1
9 2 30 5 2 2
10 31 29 6 2 2
11 34 28 7 2 2
12 18 27 8 2 2
13 33 26 9 2 2
14 17 25 10 2 2
15 33 25 9 3 3
16 9 24 10 3 3
17 1 23 11 3 3
18 15 22 12 3 3
19 13 21 13 3 3
20 12 21 12 4 4
21 6 20 13 4 4
22 27 20 12 5 5
23 15 20 11 6 6
24 31 20 10 7 7
25 31 20 10 7 6 1
26 11 19 11 7 6 1
27 29 18 12 7 6 1
28 23 18 12 7 5 2
29 20 17 13 7 5 2
30 30 16 14 7 5 2
31 25 15 15 7 5 2 =0: 0 3 4 5 7 10 14 21 22 24 26 28 32 35 36 15 -15
32 2 L 15 15 7 4 3 =0: 0 3 4 5 7 10 14 21 22 24 26 28 32 35 36 15 -30
33 3 W 14 16 7 4 3 =2: 12 15 27 33 4 +2
34 33 W 14 16 7 3 4 +38
35 5 13 17 7 3 4
36 32 12 18 7 3 4
37 22 11 19 7 3 4
38 27 11 19 7 2 5
39 7 10 20 7 2 5
40 5 10 19 8 3 5
41 13 10 18 9 4 5 =0: 0 4 10 14 21 24 26 28 35 36 10 +28
42 18 L 10 17 10 5 5 =2: 5 12 13 15 18 5 +23
43 3 L 10 16 11 6 5 =2: 3 5 12 13 15 18 6 +17
44 5 W 10 16 11 5 6 +53
45 27 10 16 11 5 6
46 7 10 15 12 6 6 =2: 3 7 12 13 15 18 6 +47
47 1 L 10 14 13 7 6 =1: 6 8 9 11 16 17 19 20 22 25 29 30 32 34 14 +33
48 6 W 10 13 14 8 6 +69
49 27 10 13 14 8 6
50 18 * End of Session
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
1 18 36 1
2 20 35 2
3 7 34 3
4 6 33 4
5 13 32 5
6 34 31 6
7 29 30 7
8 8 29 8
9 31 28 9
10 28 27 10
11 10 26 11
12 10 26 10 1 1
13 7 26 9 2 2
14 27 25 10 2 2
15 16 24 11 2 2
16 2 23 12 2 2
17 13 23 11 3 3
18 29 23 10 4 4
19 26 22 11 4 4
20 26 22 10 5 5
21 22 21 11 5 5
22 18 21 10 6 6
23 24 20 11 6 6
24 4 19 12 6 6
25 3 18 13 6 6
26 12 17 14 6 6
27 16 17 13 7 7
28 10 17 13 7 6 1
29 11 16 14 7 6 1
30 5 15 15 7 6 1 =0: 0 1 9 14 15 17 19 21 23 25 30 32 33 35 36 15 -15
31 2 L 15 14 8 7 1 =0: 0 1 9 14 15 17 19 21 23 25 30 32 33 35 36 15 -30
32 34 L 15 13 9 8 1 -30
33 12 15 12 10 9 1
34 12 15 12 10 8 2
35 24 15 11 11 9 2 =1: 3 4 5 6 8 11 20 22 27 28 31 11 -41
36 6 W 15 10 12 10 2 =1: 3 4 5 8 11 20 22 27 28 31 10 -15
37 5 W 15 9 13 11 2 +21
38 5 15 9 13 10 3
39 5 15 9 13 10 3
40 24 15 9 13 9 4 =1: 3 4 8 11 20 22 27 28 31 9 +12
41 15 L 14 10 13 9 4 =0: 0 1 9 14 17 19 21 23 25 30 32 33 35 36 14 -2
42 13 L 14 10 13 8 5 =0: 0 1 9 14 17 19 21 23 25 30 32 33 35 36 14 -16
43 11 L 14 9 14 9 5 =1: 3 4 8 15 20 22 27 28 31 9 -25
44 21 L 13 10 14 9 5 =1: 3 4 8 15 20 21 22 27 28 31 10 -35
45 28 W 13 9 15 10 5 +1
46 4 13 8 16 11 5
47 30 12 9 16 11 5 =0: 0 1 9 14 17 19 23 25 32 33 35 36 12 -11
48 10 L 12 9 16 11 5 =0: 0 1 9 14 17 19 23 25 32 33 35 36 12 -23
49 8 L 12 8 17 12 5 =0: 0 1 9 14 17 19 23 25 32 33 35 36 12 -35
50 8 L * End of Session -35
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
1 24 36 1
2 19 35 2
3 36 34 3
4 28 33 4
5 10 32 5
6 3 31 6
7 28 31 5 1 1
8 28 31 5 1 1
9 27 30 6 1 1
10 35 29 7 1 1
11 26 28 8 1 1
12 13 27 9 1 1
13 11 26 10 1 1
14 33 25 11 1 1
15 30 24 12 1 1
16 17 23 13 1 1
17 13 23 12 2 1 1
18 9 22 13 2 1 1
19 35 22 12 3 2 1
20 1 21 13 3 2 1
21 0 20 14 3 2 1
22 29 19 15 3 2 1
23 29 19 14 4 3 1
24 2 18 15 4 3 1
25 21 17 16 4 3 1 =0: 4 5 6 7 8 12 14 15 16 18 20 22 23 25 31 32 34 17 -17
26 33 L 17 15 5 4 1 -17
27 16 16 16 5 4 1 =0: 4 5 6 7 8 12 14 15 18 20 22 23 25 31 32 34 16 -33
28 31 W 15 17 5 4 1 +3
29 30 15 16 6 5 1
30 27 15 15 7 6 1 =0: 4 5 6 7 8 12 14 15 18 20 22 23 25 32 34 15 -12
31 27 L 15 15 7 5 2 =0: 4 5 6 7 8 12 14 15 18 20 22 23 25 32 34 15 -27
32 12 W 14 16 7 5 2 +9
33 33 14 16 7 4 3 =2: 13 29 30 35 4 +5
34 12 L 14 15 8 5 3 +5
35 33 14 15 8 5 3
36 6 13 16 8 5 3
37 12 13 16 8 4 4 =2: 13 29 30 35 4 +1
38 26 L 13 15 9 5 4 =2: 13 26 29 30 35 5 -4
39 23 L 12 16 9 5 4 =2: 13 26 29 30 35 5 -9
40 2 L 12 15 10 6 4 -9
41 36 12 14 11 7 4 =0: 4 5 7 8 14 15 18 20 22 25 32 34 12 -21
42 12 L 12 14 11 7 4 =0: 4 5 7 8 14 15 18 20 22 25 32 34 12 -33
43 17 L 12 13 12 8 4 =1: 0 1 3 6 9 10 11 16 19 21 23 24 31 13 -46
44 29 L 12 13 12 7 5 =1: 0 1 3 6 9 10 11 16 19 21 23 24 31 13 -59
45 34 L 11 14 12 7 5 -59
46 32 10 15 12 7 5
47 3 10 14 13 8 5 =1: 0 1 6 9 10 11 16 19 21 23 24 31 32 34 14 -73
48 15 L 9 15 13 8 5 =0: 4 5 7 8 14 18 20 22 25 9 -82
49 34 L 9 14 14 9 5 =1: 0 1 6 9 10 11 15 16 19 21 23 24 31 32 14 -96
50 11 W * End of Session -60
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
1 29 36 1
2 36 35 2
3 19 34 3
4 28 33 4
5 20 32 5
6 7 31 6
7 16 30 7
8 13 29 8
9 36 29 7 1 1
10 35 28 8 1 1
11 18 27 9 1 1
12 33 26 10 1 1
13 2 25 11 1 1
14 29 25 10 2 2
15 7 25 9 3 3
16 23 24 10 3 3
17 36 24 10 3 2 1
18 33 24 9 4 3 1
19 2 24 8 5 4 1
20 30 23 9 5 4 1
21 4 22 10 5 4 1
22 19 22 9 6 5 1
23 22 21 10 6 5 1
24 30 21 9 7 6 1
25 15 20 10 7 6 1
26 20 20 9 8 7 1 =1: 4 13 15 16 18 22 23 28 35 9 -9
27 21 L 19 10 8 7 1 -9
28 18 19 9 9 8 1 =1: 4 13 15 16 21 22 23 28 35 9 -18
29 10 L 18 10 9 8 1 =1: 4 10 13 15 16 21 22 23 28 35 10 -28
30 15 W 18 9 10 9 1 =1: 4 10 13 16 21 22 23 28 35 9 -1
31 4 W 18 8 11 10 1 +35
32 14 17 9 11 10 1
33 18 17 9 11 9 2 =1: 10 13 14 16 21 22 23 28 35 9 +26
34 5 L 16 10 11 9 2 =1: 5 10 13 14 16 21 22 23 28 35 10 +16
35 36 L 16 10 11 9 2 =1: 5 10 13 14 16 21 22 23 28 35 10 +6
36 8 L 15 11 11 9 2 =1: 5 8 10 13 14 16 21 22 23 28 35 11 -5
37 27 L 14 12 11 9 2 =1: 5 8 10 13 14 16 21 22 23 27 28 35 12 -17
38 9 L 13 13 11 9 2 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 12 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 13 -30
39 28 L 13 12 12 10 2 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 12 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 13 -43
40 18 L 13 12 12 10 2 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 12 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 13 -56
41 2 L 13 12 12 9 3 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 12 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 13 -69
42 5 L 13 11 13 10 3 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 12 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 13 -82
43 29 L 13 11 13 9 4 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 12 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 13 -95
44 2 L 13 11 13 9 4 -95
45 12 12 12 13 9 4 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 12 -107
46 7 L 12 12 13 8 5 =0: 0 1 3 6 11 17 24 25 26 31 32 34 12 -119
47 24 W 11 13 13 8 5 =1: 8 9 10 12 13 14 16 21 22 23 24 27 35 13 -96
48 18 L 11 13 13 8 5 =1: 8 9 10 12 13 14 16 21 22 23 24 27 35 13 -109
49 33 L 11 13 13 7 6 =2: 4 5 15 19 20 28 30 7 -116
50 3 L * End of Session -116
Simply all become not interesting. Spins are from an online wheel. I ran some mine program on the same spins and saw all the wins... in the same groups 50 spins...
Sp Nm W/L =0 =1 >1 =2 >2 Adv bet = BRoll
- - 37 0 0 0 0 0
1 24 36 1
2 1 35 2
3 26 34 3
4 33 33 4
5 18 32 5
6 11 31 6
7 12 30 7
8 14 29 8
9 3 28 9
10 19 27 10
11 26 27 9 1 1
12 28 26 10 1 1
13 19 26 9 2 2
14 17 25 10 2 2
15 0 24 11 2 2
16 11 24 10 3 3
17 28 24 9 4 4
18 27 23 10 4 4
19 22 22 11 4 4
20 36 21 12 4 4
21 22 21 11 5 5
22 22 21 11 5 4 1
23 35 20 12 5 4 1
24 21 19 13 5 4 1
25 11 19 13 5 3 2 =2: 19 26 28 3 -3
26 8 L 18 14 5 3 2 =2: 19 26 28 3 -6
27 15 L 17 15 5 3 2 =2: 19 26 28 3 -9
28 29 L 16 16 5 3 2 =0: 2 4 5 6 7 9 10 13 16 20 23 25 30 31 32 34 16 -25
29 15 L 16 15 6 4 2 =0: 2 4 5 6 7 9 10 13 16 20 23 25 30 31 32 34 16 -41
30 36 L 16 14 7 5 2 -41
31 35 16 13 8 6 2
32 26 16 13 8 5 3
33 30 15 14 8 5 3 =0: 2 4 5 6 7 9 10 13 16 20 23 25 31 32 34 15 -56
34 1 L 15 13 9 6 3 -56
35 35 15 13 9 5 4 =2: 1 15 19 28 36 5 -61
36 30 L 15 12 10 6 4 -61
37 2 14 13 10 6 4 =0: 4 5 6 7 9 10 13 16 20 23 25 31 32 34 14 -75
38 36 L 14 13 10 5 5 =0: 4 5 6 7 9 10 13 16 20 23 25 31 32 34 14 -89
39 31 W 13 14 10 5 5 =2: 1 15 19 28 30 5 -58
40 5 L 12 15 10 5 5 =2: 1 15 19 28 30 5 -63
41 6 L 11 16 10 5 5 =0: 4 7 9 10 13 16 20 23 25 32 34 11 -74
42 2 L 11 15 11 6 5 =2: 1 2 15 19 28 30 6 -80
43 8 L 11 14 12 7 5 -80
44 6 11 13 13 8 5 =1: 0 3 5 12 14 17 18 21 24 27 29 31 33 13 -93
45 31 W 11 12 14 9 5 -57
46 26 11 12 14 9 5
47 8 11 12 14 8 6
48 36 11 12 14 8 6
49 31 11 12 14 7 7 =2: 1 2 6 15 19 28 30 7 -64
50 30 W * End of Session -28
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 27, 10:50 AM 201849 31 11 12 14 7 7 =2: 1 2 6 15 19 28 30 7 -64
50 30 W * End of Session -28
Here how program get after -64 -28 in last move ?
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 27, 10:41 AM 201849 33 L 11 13 13 7 6 =2: 4 5 15 19 20 28 30 7 -116
50 3 L * End of Session -116
The same here if are bet in 49 spin and loss then total result must be -123 ?
Remember this is a CLINICAL BET Advisor.
it does always play until spin 50
it doesn´t analyse the trot
it simply bets every possible crossing.
It is no stop in win, stop in bad streaks.
What you can learn from this Advisor is to check when and why you lose.
the calculation is like this
crossing appears in this row 14 14 (previous br -14) bet in next spin 14 new br -28
win in this row (no further bet +36) new br +8
There are no decisions made in this clinical advisor. It is just to ,show how crossings appear.
Pls try this for information:
put in 100 spins
run the software
delete first spin and run software again
delete the first spin and software again
You will see that there are suddenly einning streaks in the same trot.
so you have to analyse the running trot and if it is losing, just jump into the winning section.
How this is possible is just studying and learning to read what is going on.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 27, 12:07 PM 2018Pls try this for information:
put in 100 spins
run the software
delete first spin and run software again
delete the first spin and software again
You will see that there are suddenly einning streaks in the same trot.
I something similar done, I did many experiments.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 27, 12:07 PM 2018so you have to analyse the running trot and if it is losing, just jump into the winning section.
How this is possible is just studying and learning to read what is going on.
When we look at the final results all are different, then when you play at the table. Simply I not like systems which are based on previous numbers .
Numbers are only stickers. They do not have the influence to game - to the game have influence only concrete wheel positions. Say if I play VB, go to toilet and casino change order of numbers by regluing stickers with numbers on number tape - I can play after return and that will not make the effect to mine results.
But if you play GUT...?
As I said for mine testings I take spins from online casino wheel. So I knew some history before and was choosed some numbers which I will choose if I will play this online casino. Something like biased numbers.
They worked better...
Quote from: Bebediktus3 on Jul 27, 01:08 PM 2018
Simply I not like systems which are based on previous numbers .
Numbers are only stickers. They do not have the influence to game -...
I don´t refer to numbers that have hit. I just follow the movement of the groups unhit - once hit - twice hit and so on.
The number which has fallen has no value only the group it had belonged to and now the new group it belongs to
You know, what is very strange and what is not good in mine opinion is that are many situations when say we start from number x and after 50 spins have result say +92, But if we start from x+1 we end with the result -110. So only one spin difference in observations give so big difference...
Quote from: The General on Jul 24, 09:08 PM 2018
Well I'm the luckiessssst person you will everrrr meeeet then because I've found a gazillion of themz. ::)
No ,casino’s r not that dumb as u r thinking. They r always ready to beat up the 60’s dreamers so that they dont look for stars in the sky during day time.
Quote from: Madi on Jul 29, 09:39 PM 2018
No ,casino’s r not that dumb as u r thinking. They r always ready to beat up the 60’s dreamers so that they dont look for stars in the sky during day time.
I suspect that I've been in just a few more casinos than you have. ::)
You're not in the US are you?
Quote from: The General on Jul 29, 09:58 PM 2018
I suspect that I've been in just a few more casinos than you have
Does it really matter? Old people can visit different casino everyday for free coffee. But still chance of getting a 🌟 during daytime is close to zero.
My points is that I have been in more casinos and have more casino experience that most of the people on this board grouped as a whole. And my experience within the casinos contradicts your beliefs.
Quote from: The General on Jul 29, 10:18 PM 2018
My points is that I have been in more casinos and have more casino experience that most of the people on this board grouped as a whole. And my experience within the casinos contradicts your beliefs.
Ur experience doesnt manipulate the casino in ur favour to leave a faulty wheel so that u can suck up all their money over the years.
By the ways do u ever played rng?
Quote from: The General on Jul 29, 10:18 PM 2018
My points is that I have been in more casinos and have more casino experience that most of the people on this board grouped as a whole. And my experience within the casinos contradicts your beliefs.
U must have a pillow nd blanket beside the wheel. Still u will fall short if u want to combined U vs most of the people on this board.
I know that seems absurd, but you have to realize that I play for a living. I've been in and out of most of the casinos in North America and Islands.
Quote from: winkel on Jul 24, 02:34 PM 2018
I do the same and win mostly. But AP-Players tell me there are still 37 pockets left. So you are on the same fallacy as me.
Do more testing. Youare bound to houseedge as well.
Really? VB example for you as beginner:
Buy a wheel. Spin the ball with the same acceleration, let the wheel being static. You will see a dominant sector, even if you spin million times. The dominant sector produces hits on numbers where you get probabilities of 1/33 and lower, where the non dominant raises to 1/40 and higher. No fallacy, just increasing odds by increasing prediction ability. Odds for predicted sector naturally, because for the non-dominant we decrease odds. Static wheel was only for you as an example, it works also with a rotating one, just training and maths. I wonder why a non-AP system like GUT needs training?
Quote from: The General on Jul 29, 10:59 PM 2018
I know that seems absurd, but you have to realize that I play for a living. I've been in and out of most of the casinos in North America and Islands.
How can i realize ? Just with ur words.Even u sounds like some low logic problem gambler. “ u can find broken wheel gazillion of times†seems to me we r in scrap shop.
By the way r u on dole at the moment?
Quote from: Madi on Jul 30, 12:01 AM 2018
How can i realize ? Just with ur words.Even u sounds like some low logic problem gambler. “ u can find broken wheel gazillion of times†seems to me we r in scrap shop.
By the way r u on dole at the moment?
Seems to me that you've suddenly become illiterate. ;)
But no, I'm not on the "dole."
Quote from: The General on Jul 30, 12:14 AM 2018
Seems to me that you've suddenly become illiterate. ;)
But no, I'm not on the "dole."
No, I still got my MS certificate in solid form. Its not something that u can change like broken wheel when idenfied.
Did u study well enough or just started gambling as teenager?
Madi, what does your ms certificate allow you to do, and exactly what does it represent?
Quote from: Steve on Jul 30, 01:21 AM 2018
Madi, what does your ms certificate allow you to do,
It allows me to tell other person that i m literate
If you do that in english, and use big words, wont that be self evident?
Madi,
What is a ms certificate and what does it do for you?
Do you mean multiple sclerosis? (ms)
Quote from: The General on Jul 30, 07:08 PM 2018
Madi,
What is a ms certificate and what does it do for you?
Do you mean multiple sclerosis? (ms)
No its microsoft word. U should know.
General. Did u find any broken wheel yesterday or just circling like the wheel.
Quote from: Madi on Jul 30, 07:21 PM 2018
No its microsoft word. U should know.
General. Did u find any broken wheel yesterday or just circling like the wheel.
No, I've been off for about two weeks. I'm off to work and see Turbo tomorrow.