I made a test how often you lose when you place 2 chips on each of 2 dozens and 1 chip on a 6number -line from the 3rd dozen. Does not happen often (though it does not really help to win because of downdraw, but anyway it doesn't happen often). I also played it on betvoyager. The same result as in test. I tried it on playtech real mode -- 2 times. Both lost :)
U may say -- it is just odds and randomness. I say -- no way. It happens in Playtech ALL THE TIME. they really REACT your betting. They READ it. Each time you place a bet software knows what it will give u.
There is a saying....
Never say Never when it comes to Roulette.
Stranger things have happened.
In RNG in REAL LIVE TABLES.
In a real casino.
On a real table.
To say things like this happens all the time.
Well... this could be true.
Many people I speak to.
Consider RNG to be rigged.
Many members in the forum only play on a live table.
They consider it far more accurate.
And more real.
Life...
They say...
Is just an illusion.
And so is Roulette.
Well, at least for me it is.
Still. I do like the game.
Never say never.
but for playtech RNG always say always ;D ;D ;D ;D
never is always for playtech RNG
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 12, 01:52 AM 2011
Never say never.
but for playtech RNG always say always ;D ;D ;D ;D
never is always for playtech RNG
LOL Anyway, you said you tried it also at Betvoyager. Was it the same with BV?
Quote from: Carsch on Jan 15, 10:09 AM 2011
LoL Anyway, you said you tried it also at Betvoyager. Was it the same with BV?
Not at all. BV looks just fine
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 15, 10:17 AM 2011
Not at all. BV looks just fine
What were the difference in the results iggiv ?
The difference is like between sky and earth, or fire and ice. This is a scale of difference.
Seriously. you can't even compare. BV is played like a live wheel basically. all the same patterns.
playtech RNG is played like exchanging kisses with your enemy. whenever you bet you just lose.
maybe couple first bets could count as random.
i am telling u folks. this stuff KNOWS where u put a bet. and chooses what to give u back.
From a conversation I have had with a fellow member the other day, it would seem that BV gives almost no different a result compared to Playtech RNG.
Just his opinion U understand, but I see the Title to this Topic states U are going to show an "Example"...................can we 'see' one then please?
So far I don't 'see' a comparable example...............or have I missed the point here?
Help me Us all out here, please...................
(edited after re-reading the context of the message.)
Thank U in anticipation. Chris
Hi, Iggiv!...about Betvoyager
I would explain my observations on it for nearly 3,5 years!
First, the test I applied to BV on Europian roulette was to cover all numbers except one and zero, and the ball immediatly hits ZERO!!! >:(
I have to add here, that I used 5$ chip on every number, intentionally!
The next I did, the same on American roulette with 10$ chip on every number w/o one... and the ball again hits the twos ZERO, lose!!!
...several guys of the old forum(VLSroulette) tell about how if they play with small chip up to 0,10$ their systems win, but if they bet with high chips or apply progression, they start to lose!
I think, the BV is a very delicate platform(RNG), but also to fix players bets on the exact level of their play, i.e. when they increase the bet chip or on the progression!
They are not so stupid to have 1c chip but not to fix the increased bets of the players?!(just my opinion)
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 15, 12:36 PM 2011
Hi, Iggiv!...about Betvoyager
I would explain my observations on it for nearly 3,5 years!
First, the test I applied to BV on Europian roulette was to cover all numbers except one and zero, and the ball immediatly hits ZERO!!! >:(
I have to add here, that I used 5$ chip on every number, intentionally!
The next I did, the same on American roulette with 10$ chip on every number w/o one... and the ball again hits the twos ZERO, lose!!!
...several guys of the old forum(VLSroulette) tell about how if they play with small chip up to 0,10$ their systems win, but if they bet with high chips or apply progression, they start to lose!
I think, the BV is a very delicate platform(RNG), but also to fix players bets on the exact level of their play, i.e. when they increase the bet chip or on the progression!
They are not so regular to have 1c chip but not to fix the increased bets of the players?!(just my opinion)
maybe u r right bud. yes, i mostly test them with 1 c chip.
NO PROBLEM WITH 1c CHIP!!!
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 15, 12:41 PM 2011
NO PROBLEM WITH 1c CHIP!!!
no, no problem. here I give an example. in playtech bets like this lost 2 times in a row.
2 bets were just made randomly between many spins, not one after another right away.
of course, it always can happen, but the difference is that this happens in playtech ALL THE TIME. on permanent basis.
here is what happened in BV. 25 c bet.
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 15, 12:46 PM 2011
no, no problem. here I give an example. in playtech bets like this lost 2 times in a row.
2 bets were just made randomly between many spins, not one after another right away.
of course, it always can happen, but the difference is that this happens in playtech ALL THE TIME. on permanent basis.
here is what happened in BV. 25 c bet.
I'm sure that Playtech(RNG) are SCAMS!!!
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 15, 12:56 PM 2011
I'm sure that Playtech(RNG) are SCAMS!!!
that's what i said too, but some people blamed me in conspiracy paranoia and stuff like this.
Which people were these Iggiv?
Cause it been said many many time about RNG being rigged.
And from months ago too.
Quote from: chrisbis on Jan 15, 01:05 PM 2011
Which people were these Iggiv?
Cause it been said many many time about RNG being rigged.
And from months ago too.
there were some, doesn't matter. Now i wonder if u agree that playtech RNG could be rigged what sense did it have having test run on it? either on fun or real money play without hits?
or with hits? If u know u r gonna be screwed up by them anyway? If u wanna run test why not taking at least RX with real casino spins. beats me. I am sure of course that u would finally lose that test too if u were betting on cold.
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 15, 01:12 PM 2011
Now I wonder if you agree that playtech RNG could be rigged what sense did it have having test run on it? either on fun or real money play without hits?
No sense to test any system on Playtech RNG, it's totally SCAM!
have you tried your system against an independent RNG?
Quote from: frost on Jan 16, 04:52 PM 2011
Have you tried your system against an independent RNG?
Hi Frost, if your message is to me, it's not a system but just a test if any RNG is rigged!!!
...and NO I've not tried it to INDEPENDENT!
By the way, I've heared that there is much difference between Playtech fun mode and real money mode, from other players!!!
...not sure if there is the same difference on BV?!
Regards, Leo
Good debate, I however cant see any "proof" from anyone on the thread, where's the proof?
Like I have said many times, I have tested systems against playtech then against RX (using it's own internal RNG & with numbers gathered from forums) and lastly, I run systems against PHP's Random function too, they fail at the same rate always.
And as iggiv AND LeoLeo know, I have also tested some systems on BetVoyager, the results are the same as far as I can tell.
@LeoLeo, I just did your test in real money mode, placed $1 chips on everynumber except 1 and zero, I hit spin and rebet 5 times, won all 5!!! I didn't dare going any further incase I lost, but thanks for the good test idea, I didn't do any spins before placing the bet, just launched the game, placed the bets and played 5 times, I also tried it in fun money mode and won all 5, so why didn't it crook me?
I would love to be proved wrong, but to be honest, I think RNG, no matter where you play, will do the same to you, the problem is Random, not RNG
Of course these are only my opinions/findings, YMMV
Disclaimer: I dont work for any casinos NOR am I in anyway affiliated with playtech
Hi, mate!
I just think PM you about this point and the system "6 streets" more in details!
Very good post superman!
I fully agree. I have never seen some RNG that cheats against me, why would they? They always win because of the house edge so there's no point. Still there can be casinos that are frauds and cheat on us, I don't know why they do it, but I guess they are money horny :lol:
The thing is that we play against random and that's our real enemy.
That's my opinion.
Quote from: superman on Jan 17, 07:13 AM 2011
I would love to be proved wrong, but to be honest, I think RNG, no matter where you play, will do the same to you, the problem is Random, not RNG
Agreed. I've never seen any plausible proof of RNG cheating either. Players are too quick to condemn them, and it's only because they KNOW it's an RNG and therefore the
potential is greater for it being rigged because you don't know how the spins are generated. Because most people don't trust RNG, they're tuned into looking for certain patterns (which occur equally often on a real wheel) and so confirmation bias (link:://rouletteforum.cc/math-reference/confirmation-bias/) sets in.
I'm not saying that OCs never cheat, there are certainly rogues around, but more often the rogue behaviour has to do with not paying than deliberately fixing the outcomes.
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 17, 07:19 AM 2011
Hi, mate!
I just think PM you about this point and the system "6 streets" more in details!
Is there any particular reason why you have to use
bold text in all of you posts?
Do you really think your opinion is so important or is it just scream for attention?
:yawn:
gentlemen, whoever coudn't see cheating RNG, we agree to disagree...No, i can't give you direct proof. Direct proof is -- try to play for some time on playtech RNG with real money.
If u can see no difference, OK, then u can't see a difference. I congratulate you on this.
Probably if u can win on playtech RNG on a long run u may be invincible
Sometimes cheating is good.
I mean. We need someone who can tell exactly how does this software works. What is calculated by client and what is by server.
We could Cheat the Cheater by for example... packet injection. You could bet on 2 numbers then using packet injection send information to server that we have bet all numbers beside those 2... and cheating playtech will roll our numbers.... in theory.
Neal mate, if you have such results and on real money mode, what I could say!...my Regards, appreciated!
...but my observation again! When I tested some systems on Playtech fun mode it all was OK!
When I started play real money it was(OK) the same, win...lose...and I made some extra money but then the program just bite you and lose every bet! I stoped..., the next day started play again, it was the same until losed all my bankroll(not big deal only 30$)!...the same talk about it, many other players, ...many!
Well..., but NOT THE SAME ON LIVE GAME!!! NEVER!...so far
Next...I start playing on BV and with 10c Even Chance for nearly 3 months and I was wining about 6 to 12 euro per day! Well, ...up to when I start play with prgression (Marty) and with 1$ and more chips! What's happend?!... then my bankroll done, again and for a day!!!
What was the difference between Playtech and BV, you may see it up!
...as I said,I think BV platform is more delicate!(my opinion)
Anyway, I don't recommend playing on BV with chip more than 10c(0,10$)!
Fripper, with what chip do you play on BV, just asking?
...and Bayes I'd ask you too, I know from the previos posts that you play on BV?
Quote from: ophis on Jan 17, 08:46 AM 2011
Is there any particular reason why you have to use bold text in all of you posts?
Do you really think your opinion is so important or is it just scream for attention?
:yawn:
Hi, Ophis! ...no it's just my humble opinions, not at all!
The reason is that the letters to me are too small! My posts here are only 20!
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 17, 09:49 AM 2011
Fripper, with what chip do you play on BV, just asking?
Have build my bankroll from 0.01$ bets to 0.04$ that I'm using right now.
Have played more than 2500 spins and haven't lost yet. I am not using a marty as you do.
I have seen many series when I have played, like more than 10 blacks in a row and so on.
Nothing weird about it tho, just random speaking out.
Cheers
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 17, 09:55 AM 2011
Hi, Ophis! ...no it's just my humble opinions, not at all!
The reason is that the letters to me are too small! My posts here are only 20!
CTRL + Mousewheel = Zoom in most browsers.
if it does not work download : . opera . com
OK, thanks! :-[
QuoteWhen I tested some systems on Playtech fun mode it all was OK!
Wish i could say that !!!
To be honest, on playtech RNG in play mode to date I have probably put to test over 500 variations of different methods posted on forums and things in my head, in the ealry days I would make probably a 100 units profit before the wheels fell off, but since looking at repeaters, mainly Dyksexlics method, not that we know much about it, so repeaters in general, lately is the past 2 or 3 months, I am able to produce runs into the thousands in profit, depending on chip value you can go quite far with different methods of progressions.
I use progressions, it's my choice, as we will always lose 2.7% NO MATTER WHAT WE DO so in the long run, bots play for the long run, we need to recover, otherwise your just waisting time and its costing you 2.7%, so you need a progression to recover.
I try all methods of progressions, starting with old faithfull Martingale, mainly to just get a feel of what the losing streeks look like, after a few days you build a picture, well I do, then I try fibonacci, and any others I have used in the past.
Can survive a long time in play mode, but I haven't beaten it long term, by long term I mean, whenever I run it it doesn't get too bad, I always aim for a comfortable amount of progression, unlike the 30 levels in the 3 dozens thread, back burner for that system, it survives for a heck of a long time but when that big bad run comes along, it isn't worth the risk.
So LeoLeo, what systems/methods did you try that played OK in play mode, how many spins, would you survive the long term, I guess you tested by hand so a session wont be thousands of spins, what method buddy.
Quote from: superman on Jan 17, 02:33 PM 2011
Wish I could say that !!!
... I am able to produce runs into the thousands in profit, depending on chip value you can go quite far with different methods of progression!
Can survive a long time in play mode, but I haven't beaten it long term, by long term I mean, whenever I run it it doesn't get too bad, I always aim for a comfortable amount of progression, unlike the 30 levels in the 3 dozens thread, back burner for that system, it survives for a heck of a long time but when that big bad run comes along, it isn't worth the risk.
So LeoLeo, what systems/methods did you try that played OK in play mode, how many spins, would you survive the long term, I guess you tested by hand so a session wont be thousands of spins, what method buddy.
Well, at first look I could say that I see some difference between my OK and your OK!
Why I said that..., principly you are right to look for a method that to make profit w/o any progression and long time, but because of the character of this game and also the games %advantage, like you said, it's nearly impossible!
...the character!... the games run is separated to(by) various streaks and with various length, thats why we fall in a hole, and that we call RANDOM! ....but you know that buddy, it's even no need I tell it!
I also use a progression but usually 2 or 3 steps and I always interrupt(cut) the L streaks!
If the system is good/stable(I mean for example if the system hits the most times at the first and at the second time I probably will recover the eventual streak of losses),... by this manner, after a streak of 2 or 3 losses, say LL(two steps Marty) stop and look for the next trigger, LL (the same...), LL (the same),
and here I increase my bets by one unit, i.e. if my chip was 1$ the next will be 2$, and keep on playng 2 steps Marty, because my system hits the most times at the first time and the second time after the trigger, like I said!
IF EVEN THIS FAILS, EVENTUALLY, I START RECOVERY SESSION BY MISSING ONE OR TWO VIRTUAL LOSSES, FIRST, AND KEEP PLAYING THE SYSTEM!
That are my ways:
1. Interrupt the every L streak
2. If it needs, missing some virtual losses, first
i.e. I thin out my bets to be more safety
Cheers!
@LeoLeo11
Very wise play method Leo.
Virtual IS the new progression.
Its almost as good as the addition of all those zero's in Frippers betting against 'Horror' sessions from Bayes. (Belgian theory)
imagine now if U will, a simple analysis, of the worst system/method played on any wheel, against the best method(personal choice of course- everyone has their own) played on the same wheel,
BOTH WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF VIRTUAL PROGRESSIONS, AS, AND WHEN THEY ARE REQUIRED!!
Interesting times ahead I feel.
How the two 'Bed Fellows' would fair at RNG could also be a good pointer for a real check for this forward sense of 'cheat', or at best- 'alteration of outcome', that we ALL feel/think happens! (Or would happen if we played on one!)
Quote from: chrisbis on Jan 17, 04:53 PM 2011
@LeoLeo11
Very wise play method Leo.
Virtual IS the new progression.
Its almost as good as the addition of all those zero's in Frippers betting against 'Horror' sessions from Bayes. (Belgian theory)
BOTH WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF VIRTUAL PROGRESSIONS, AS, AND WHEN THEY ARE REQUIRED!!
I could say that Virtual... saves some very important steps of the progression, sometimes! :thumbsup:
Very true.
Was going to say that, but I saved it for someone else to post!!.
I would love to know other peoples opinion on how we can test - check out how and when RNG is 'corrupt'?
What would in everyone's eyes, be the Ultimate test?
And how to measure the results?
CAN ALL RNG PLAYERS GET INVOLVED IN THIS ONE PLEASE?
Maybe then, we can have a defining statement on RNG.
This forum and the old VLSforum helped me at large!
I hope to give my two cents, too!
I think about a bot, now!
in my opinion some RNG maybe be rigged and some may not be. the only way to be sure RNG is rigged to develop a system and play it on an independent RNG (RX) and then use this same system on a playtech RNG. in theory you should get the same results.
Another thing.
Play mode RNG and real money RNG are different. the RNG in play mode is 'boxed in'.
By this is mean it is not as aggressive as real money mode in terms of sleepers and repeaters.
Example max sleeper of a single number may be 300 spins in play mode but 500 in real money mode. This is done to entice people to play for real money.
In my early days I used to play an 8 step martingale using $1 starting once a colour had repeated 10 times. I was winning $20-40 a day. This continued for two weeks. Then I lost. This is not because the RNG learnt what I was doing but because the software algorithms had changed. Casino do this regularly.
There are something like 2000 000 000 (I think) numbers in a full cycle of the RNG. So start to finish there that many different combinations (RB ectââ,¬Â¦) and I think the max amount of a single combination is 6 spins
Its even simpler than that chaps.
Play RNG, Fun RNG, Demo RNG, is run from U r computer using a program that sits in the casino
but is active only at Ur computer.
Real money mode, uses numbers sent by the Casino's number generator.
So yes, they are completely different.
the numbers in Ur computer for Fun, Play mode, could be years old in there generation.
Numbers in Real Money mode, are fresh out of the programmers brain, and the way he has set the generator to function.
But still, its a program.
they are both programs.
Little like a 'fellow' said to me in a PM.
RNG in play/fun/demo mode- its 'light' number generation
RNG in Real Mode- are heavy shite man.
(My words, not his, BTW, I just summerized!!)
Quote from: chrisbis on Jan 17, 05:50 PM 2011
Its even simpler than that chaps.
Play RNG, Fun RNG, Demo RNG, is run from you are computer using a program that sits in the casino
but is active only at your computer.
Real money mode, uses numbers sent by the Casino's number generator.
So yes, they are completely different.
the numbers in your computer for Fun, Play mode, could be years old in there generation.
Numbers in Real Money mode, are fresh out of the programmers brain, and the way he has set the generator to function.
But still, its a program.
they are both programs.
Little like a 'fellow' said to me in a PM.
RNG in play/fun/demo mode- its 'light' number generation
RNG in Real Mode- are heavy shite man.
(My words, not his, by the way, I just summerized!!)
Thats all correct, I had this feeling for years!!!
U can play fun mode playtech offline. Because it is just simple RNG program, working in your computer. Real mode is generated by hardware "over there", and this is very complicated algorithm, and this algorithm "at times" can create "not exactly random numbers" as one guy said in old VLS. and this guy was ex playtech programmer. And this guy basically agreed to those who said that playing playtech RNG as it is is not worth it.
He also hinted that he knows how to defeat it, but...it remained a mystery.
Or just blah-blah-blah
It seems to me that the only real issue is whether the outcomes are rigged or not. If they're not rigged, it's in the casino's interest to make sure that the RNG is as fair and random as possible. Many use "TRNGs" these days (outcomes generated by radioactive decay processes), which is the case with the BetVoyager and Betfair casinos. I can't see how anyone can claim that 2 RNGs can be "completely different" when any 2 sequences of more than a certain length, even when generated from the same RNG, will also be completely different. ??? Random is random, are there different species of random? and if so, exactly who would be disadvantaged by that fact?
Quote from: Bayes on Jan 18, 02:57 AM 2011
I can't see how anyone can claim that 2 RNGs can be "completely different" when any 2 sequences of more than a certain length, even when generated from the same RNG, will also be completely different. ??? Random is random, are there different species of random? and if so, exactly who would be disadvantaged by that fact?
...because there are two different programs(RNGs) and they are programmed by different programmers and the programs couldn't be completely different in that case.
It's couldn't be proved entirely if RNG is rigged or fair and random!
...of course, some particular RNG must be programmed to look like a fair and random RNG, and even it maybe is fair?! If anyone can prove that it's rigged, maybe any organization will stop it!
Anyway, doubting always remain!
For me, I'll stop think if Rng is rigged or not, and I'll be carefull about it!... and start thinking again for good methods&systems playing roulette!
QuoteFor me, I'll stop think if Rng is rigged or not, and I'll be carefull about it!... and start thinking again for good methods&systems playing roulette
Good way forward, in my opinion anyway.
We have to remember, probably 90% of people who find this forum are online players, and probably 90% of them play RNG, so, in my opinion the future IS RNG wether we like it or not.
Quote from: superman on Jan 18, 09:27 AM 2011
Good way forward, in my opinion anyway.
We have to remember, probably 90% of people who find this forum are online players, and probably 90% of them play RNG, so, in my opinion the future IS RNG wether we like it or not.
Nah man! The future is on-line live roulette. We don't want RNG........well, as long as we know it's not rigged.
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 18, 08:48 AM 2011
...because there are two different programs(RNGs) and they are programmed by different programmers and the programs couldn't be completely different in that case.
True, but a programmer doesn't normally write an RNG algorithm from scratch. There are only a relatively small number of pseudo-RNG algorithms (like the "Mersenne Twister") and the casino software would more than likely use a "canned" RNG ie; just use a function which calls the algorithm. Also, reputable casinos are audited and the RNG is tested to see if passes statistical tests, if it does, then it's deemed "random".
I don't know whether RNGs are the future, there are a lot more live wheels around these days than there used to be. Why would Casinos go to this trouble and expense when they could use an RNG for tuppence? surely one reason is that people don't trust RNGs and so are more likely to play on a live wheel, so casinos have to do whatever is necessary to get the punters in.
In my opinion, there are a couple of reasons why people tend to believe that RNGs are rigged. Firstly, you get a lot more spins per hour than on a live wheel, which means you're much more likely to see "rare" sequences and patterns. At a B&M casino you may only get 30 spins an hour, at an OC you can get 300 (or more). The probability of 10 reds in a row is exactly the same, but because of the faster "turnover", you could get the impression that it's ten times more likely at an OC than at a B&M.
The other thing which might contribute to the feeling of being ripped off is that usually you're playing alone at an OC. If you can see other players winning you're less likely to jump to the conclusion that the Casino is rigged.
Quote from: Bayes on Jan 18, 10:51 AM 2011
In my opinion, there are a couple of reasons why people tend to believe that RNGs are rigged.
It's not just RNG, it's the casino. I would think it's because people have been cheated, but also because you can't just trust some casino out there on the net (and many aren't regulated) not really knowing what is going on behind the doors. It's like trusting a stranger you know nothing about with your money. Unless people come forward and tell about their experiences with such and such online casino, then that might help.
Other than that, i'd use RNG as long as I know that the casino where i'm playing can be trusted.
Yes, but it's surprising how many people believe that ALL online casinos are rigged, period. Even big name reputable licensed ones.
Quote from: Bayes on Jan 18, 11:25 AM 2011
Yes, but it's surprising how many people believe that ALL online casinos are rigged, period. Even big name reputable licensed ones.
i never said all. i say playtech software. Playtech casinos maybe not rigged, but software is.
I have no complains so far about playtech live wheel. about BV RNG as well
I think Playtech RNG is an hard one to "understand" if you have not played previously, but i don't think is cheating, it's only different.
If the software don't allow to win why i win on a regular basis ?
I play only at BV and Playtech RNG and is completely different for sure.
u know what i thought...maybe i have been real SUBJECTIVE on this. maybe it is matter of luck. because now i recall that in couple of playtech casinos i did win and withdrew successfully.
though overall i lost much more. Well, i could be wrong. I am just human. I have my doubts.
Quote from: iggiv on Jan 18, 09:10 PM 2011
U know what I thought...maybe I have been real SUBJECTIVE on this. maybe it is matter of luck. because now I recall that in couple of playtech casinos I did win and withdrew successfully.
though overall I lost much more. Well, I could be wrong. I am just human. I have my doubts.
No Iggi, you are right :)
Is good to have a dubt and some playtech casinos are cheating for sure but, for William Hill, Eurogrand and some others i think i can trust on them.
Is only my personal opinion and i can be wrong :D
Lulloz, do you use progressions when playing at BV? and use units bigger than $5?
...one of the answers maybe is Flash version. There is difference between flash and download versions!
Download version is much heavy(hard) to win, even on BV than flash(browser) version, especially
playing with high chips(1$ and more).
It's like the other games levels of hardness!
The key to BV is playing with small chip and small progression on the both versions(download & flash), I'm sure for that, personally!
Quote from: Carsch on Jan 18, 10:47 PM 2011
Lulloz, do you use progressions when playing at BV? and use units bigger than $5?
I use near flat bet and at max 1,5 euro single stake for every number.
Use 5 euro is dangerous for me :)
Quote from: LeoLeo11 on Jan 19, 06:14 AM 2011
The key to BV is playing with small chip and small progression on the both versions(download & flash), I'm sure for that, personally!
Alright, this is what i wanted to know. So, they will interfere with your game if you place large bets? That sucks. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this with BV.
And where is the evidence that they interfere with your game? it's a purely subjective interpretation.
You can get any number of "testimonials" either for or against cheating, but without hard figures and stats it means nothing.
Confirmation bias: if you don't trust RNGs you'll ignore the positive testimonials and believe the negative ones, and that's not an objective assessment.
Quote from: Bayes on Jan 20, 03:42 AM 2011
And where is the evidence that they interfere with your game? it's a purely subjective interpretation.
You can get any number of "testimonials" either for or against cheating, but without hard figures and stats it means nothing.
Confirmation bias: if you don't trust RNGs you'll ignore the positive testimonials and believe the negative ones, and that's not an objective assessment.
Good assessment Jules. :thumbsup:
I'm on the fence with it. In other words-
not enough absolute information to say definitively either way.
Basically, it all boils down to this:
1 RNG is not roulette -- never was, never is and never will be. Why? Because roulette is an actual wheel; RNG is software. (Apples do not equal pears)
2 If you have any doubts -- real or imagined -- as to whether RNG is rigged or not then Don't. Play. RNG.
We could all argue until the cows come home. Unless somebody can produce a signed and witnessed statement from, say, a Playtech programmer, stating it's rigged, then all we can ever do is guess...
Let's not forget Victor actually did find some PROOF about one particular RNG software and posted it on the forum.
So if one package is rigged (as in Victor's post) then it sure as heck throws a big question mark over the rest of them!
That's suspicion enough for me to keep my money right away from RNG. ;)
Question for Forum members.
Q. If I set two apples down upon a table............
Do I not get a pair? :question:
Quote from: esoito on Jan 20, 04:14 AM 2011
Let's not forget Victor actually did find some PROOF about one particular RNG software and posted it on the forum.
esoito, in that particular thread you mentioned that you were cheated by BV; care to elaborate?
I agree it's not worth trying to convince anyone who's determined to believe otherwise, it just irritates me when people make accusations without any back-up or evidence.
BV do have a system in place which is supposed to guarantee that outcomes are never manipulated or changed during play, but unfortunately this isn't a cast-iron proof because the checksums are generated from their own site. It's a shame because they've gone to considerable trouble to explain how it all works. If there was a way for players to independently verify the checksums then it would convince more people... maybe.
QuoteRNG is not roulette -- never was, never is and never will be. Why? Because roulette is an actual wheel; RNG is software
I think we have agreed on this a while back, its random and random is the enemy. The roulette table is only used as a place to place bets.
QuoteLet's not forget Victor actually did find some PROOF about one particular RNG software and posted it on the forum.
At a time when he was creating his own system, which now turns out that his will win for some and lose for others, same as RNG if you ask me, random is random, wether it's from a wheel or a computer AND Vic has thrown the towel in now, but he has made money from his "tool" hasn't he.
So in essence, roulette cheats, period
Quote from: superman on Jan 20, 06:19 AM 2011
I think we have agreed on this a while back, its random and random is the enemy. The roulette table is only used as a place to place bets.
At a time when he was creating his own system, which now turns out that his will win for some and lose for others, same as RNG if you ask me, random is random, wether it's from a wheel or a computer AND Vic has thrown the towel in now, but he has made money from his "tool" hasn't he.
So in essence, roulette cheats, period
WARNING @ SUPERMANWhat you have written is a non sequitur. The Tool is a separate issue entirely from the point I was making.
Don't use my entirely unrelated comment as a stick with which to beat Victor.
If you have an issue with Victor then take it up with him.
I will NOT countenance a vicious, personal and public attack such as this innuendo.
Do it again and there will be a more serious consequence than a written warning.
Furthermore, an apology would not be out of place.
Oh my, I was merely stating that he was promoting something that has apparently failed THE SAME as RNG fails, its called a comparison.
You brought his name to the thread yourself, had you not, I would probably not have pointed out the inevitable failure.
Maybe I shouldn't have pointed out that he has taken money from some of you, that seems to be the sore point here.
Sorry Vic, but it is true.
QuoteDo it again and there will be a more serious consequence than a written warning
esoito, do what you have to do mate, its a forum for debate, dont bring things or people in to a thread if you dont want them mentioned in it by others.
Quote from: Bayes on Jan 20, 03:42 AM 2011
And where is the evidence that they interfere with your game? it's a purely subjective interpretation.
You can get any number of "testimonials" either for or against cheating, but without hard figures and stats it means nothing. Confirmation bias: if you don't trust RNGs you'll ignore the positive testimonials and believe the negative ones, and that's not an objective assessment.
Bayes, I respect your opinion, there is much sense on all your posts here(and not only here)!Maybe you are a programmer?!
No absolute evidence, that casinos interfere with player's game!...but Why I claim about all these differences...!
True it's just my observations and they are too subjective(but not entirely)!...and the most of them are done with a bot(RBotPro) and sometimes all day(even 24hours).
What I mean..., put a system on the bot for say 10 hours on Dublinbet(live), first!...I have some results(+/- no meaning),...next 10 hours the same system runs on BV, OK I save the results, and the next time(10hours) put it on a Playtech casino(Golden Palace etc.)...save results!
OK it's still too subjective!...but I do that and the next time..., and the next time, several times in order.
Now results: Every time my results are nearly equal comparing Live with BV or worse on BV, and nearly every time results are much better than Playtech! ââ,¬Â¦must be add here that I put various speed set on the bot for Playtech casino, intentionally( not max. speed)
...to be honest sometimes I have the same bad results on Dublinbet like Playtech, probably because sometime the wheal behaves like RNG, but pretty rare( I think, we all had such cases)
Maybe still subjective but for me that means, that it's more dangerous to play on Playtech and on RNG, at all...!
Superman, ââ,¬Å"randomness is randomnessââ,¬Â but I would say here, that there is difference between the randomness of the real wheal and the randomness of a programme (RNG), it's maybe because first randomness is produced by dealer's hand and the wheel but the second by the programme?!
Programme is programme, it's exact parameters sets on it, and the wheal is wheal! I could see some difference...!(just my opinion and it's not more important than others)
@superman & esoito
Hi, I'm OK with it being debated.
My plans are to become a full-time web developer this year.
Yes, I'm honoring every session booked.
If you ask me, I don't feel like gambling seriously anymore and I'm in the process of draining and shutting down my online casinos accounts (joyland, etc.);
Of course, that's me! Anybody can make as he/she wishes! Roulette is a most exciting game, but at this moment in time I see every hour I spend playing roulette as an hour I'm not spending coding something which I can derive a stable income from.
Currently, given my delicate familiar situation, one of the most irresponsible things for me to do would be to spend my day with roulette rather than looking for getting stable income.
I get my priorities right.. Right now, I only want a regular salary and my family back.
I know every conscious person can relate.
Victor
Hey Victor
QuoteHi, I'm OK with it being debated
You were not being debated, referenced to maybe, but not debated buddy.
QuoteMy plans are to become a full-time web developer this year
LOL thats what I do for a business, it's not easy, there's a lot of people doing it. Try to concentrate on the backend, my main money comes from MySql/PHP you can charge more for your time and as you know, if you can code, web functionality is fairly easy to do, good luck buddy.
esoito, all's cool on the western front, stand down soldier
Quote from: superman on Jan 20, 09:26 AM 2011
Hey Victor
You were not being debated, referenced to maybe, but not debated buddy.
Thank you.
Quote from: superman on Jan 20, 09:26 AM 2011LoL that's what I do for a business, it's not easy, there's a lot of people doing it. Try to concentrate on the backend, my main money comes from MySql/PHP you can charge more for your time and as you know, if you can code, web functionality is fairly easy to do, good luck buddy.
Thanks for your advice.
i think the only way to solve this debate is to design a system that works on a independent RNG.
if you win continiously but lose on a casino RNG then there you have your answer. if a system can not hold up to softwear that has no reason to cheat or rigg the outcome then it is clear the system will fail on any RNG.
Quoteif a system can not hold up to softwear that has no reason to cheat or rigg the outcome then it is clear the system will fail on any RNG
Good idea frost, but as I have stated a few times, maybe not in this thread, I have tested numerous methods agains Roulette Xtreme, using IT's internal RNG AND spins found on forums etc, would RX cheat? I doubt it, I have also tested against PHPs' random function, that wouldn't cheat either, lastly, the software I use to create bots, I have used that random() function too, all systems fail long term (which means at some point the losses were too great, but after that period they win for a while again).
That doesn't mean we should give up though, random has a flow you get good times AND bad times all the time, we need to try to understand WHY the bad times are bad and its not as simple as, "I was betting red and 20 blacks came out, that's why my system failed" you need to look at the numbers that were spun, the colours, hi lo, odd even dozens and columns on the table are fluff to make it look interesting/easy.
Everyone has had results like
LWWWLLWWWWWWWLWWWWWLLWWWLLLWWLLWLLLWWLLLWLLLLLLWLLWWLLLLLLWWLWWLWLWLWWWLWWLLWLWWWWWLWWWWWLLW
See the bad patch in the middle?
Thats the results, now, if you changed all Ls' to R and Ws' to B (red & black)
RBBBRRBBBBBBBRBBBBRRBBBRRRBBRRBRRRBBRRRBRRRRRRBRRBBRRRRRRBBRBBRBRBRBBBRBBRRBRBBBBBRBBBBBRRB
Its the same as the results of play, long sequences of wins and losses, chops of wins and losses series of wins and losses, which to me shows that methods/spins/results all have the same profiles, they all relate no matter which RNG you test against you will always get series of X length so many times, runs of 20+ so many times, thats random, the enemy.
As far as cheating RNG's big companies like playtech have no need to cheat, they may have a different kind or harder random but cheat, I doubt it. Some developing countries might not pay you if you win, that's cheating.
yea i am of the same thought superman. just thought we should put an end to this debate.
Quote from: esoito on Jan 20, 04:14 AM 2011
That's suspicion enough for me to keep my money right away from RNG. ;)
It's your choice and i'm sure is the best for you if you think RNG is a scam, but.. if you notice something of strange during the game, it can be used to made a lot of money :)
Until now in the first month of 2011, i have gained a big load of money at playtech RNG and i'm sure i'm no one on the roulette scene.
For now i think rigged can be good if you can find when and where ;)
"Let's not forget Victor actually did find some PROOF about one particular RNG software and posted it on the forum."
As I know, this thread was based on something like a document how a particular casino order software and was refering with specific parameters and settings by the software company?! :ooh: ???
Two points for me:
1. Fair RNG-casinos with realy "random number generator"(like maybe BV) software but although probably there is some difference between the randomness of the real wheal and the randomness of a programme (RNG), and it's maybe because first randomness is produced by dealer's hand and the wheel but the second by the programme?!
2. Rigged "rng" casinos with special settings on the software and even they couldn't be blamed that cheat players because there are no real evidences, just settings!
This debate finaly finished for me!
Good luck on the tables!...Live and RNGs too
P.S. @Frost if you design a system that wins on fair RNG it must be "Holy Grail" system and I don't believe it exist so far!
I also have internal RNG to my bot, the results are same like RNG casinos in long term!
Probably playing roulette is too individual, like often it is with medicines!...if you finaly find your system it will work for you!
@ leo. im working on it buddy :)
Quote from: frost on Jan 20, 03:35 PM 2011
@ leo. I'm working on it buddy :)
Good luck buddy, I'll remember you! :thumbsup: ...it's very important work! :)
I must say that after played several sessions both with the online version and the downloaded version of betvoyager that the downloaded version is harder to win at.
This may just be temporary but for now, it has been harder to win.
I don't make a conclusion on it yet.
Cheers
1. Lately i see a lot of advertising on a lot of sites of people who claim they have a system that wins at online roulette. It's always a progressive system bound to loose. Now those advertising cost money. Who other then the casino's themself would put these up?
Take rouletteflaw. com i e-mail the person of that site different times with printscreens of proof that what he says is not right. But he never give an answer. Also every day he puts op 3 casino's on his site that he 'checked' that still works for his 'flaw'. But it's not true. . . i have send proof to him over and over. So why would he keep doing that? Only reason is that he is a sick sadistic person who likes to pay money for advertising or he works for the casino's he so cald checked.
2. But don't believe others. . . check it out yourself how 'random' it is. . . and i don't mean things like '7 black in a row'. . . . . . because that's normal.
Just put money on 35 or 36 numbers and leave 1 or 2 open. Spin the wheel 20 times and you will see how many times those 1 or 2 numbers that you don't have come up. I've put a screenshot on this forum somewere where you can see the number 22 drops 7 times in 14 spins. Don't tell me that's random. Anyone ever seen a single number drop 7 times in 14 spins on a real roulette?
For weeks i play at a real casino every day for hours. I never seen zero drop more then 2 times in 2 hours. At online roulette you see zero drop at least 4 times in 1 hour.
6 reds, a zero and then again 6 reds? At a real roulette i've seen it maby once a day. At online roulette 5 times an hour.
Quote from: kekie on Feb 04, 05:04 AM 2011
1. Lately I see a lot of advertising on a lot of sites of people who claim they have a system that wins at online roulette. It's always a progressive system bound to lose. Now those advertising cost money. Who other then the casino's themself would put these up?
Take rouletteflaw. com I e-mail the person of that site different times with printscreens of proof that what he says is not right. But he never give an answer. Also every day he puts op 3 casino's on his site that he 'checked' that still works for his 'flaw'. But it's not true. . . I have send proof to him over and over. So why would he keep doing that? Only reason is that he is a sick sadistic person who likes to pay money for advertising or he works for the casino's he so cald checked.
2. But don't believe others. . . check it out yourself how 'random' it is. . . and I don't mean things like '7 black in a row'. . . . . . because that's normal.
Just put money on 35 or 36 numbers and leave 1 or 2 open. Spin the wheel 20 times and you will see how many times those 1 or 2 numbers that you don't have come up. I've put a screenshot on this forum somewere where you can see the number 22 drops 7 times in 14 spins. Don't tell me that's random. Anyone ever seen a single number drop 7 times in 14 spins on a real roulette?
For weeks I play at a real casino every day for hours. I never seen zero drop more then 2 times in 2 hours. At online roulette you see zero drop at least 4 times in 1 hour. 6 reds, a zero and then again 6 reds? At a real roulette i've seen it maby once a day. At online roulette 5 times an hour.
[/color]
Exactly...! What are the casinos where you have these "random" results and with which platforms?!
By the way that with zeros is normal!(my observation)
Quote from: kekie on Feb 04, 05:04 AM 2011
Anyone ever seen a single number drop 7 times in 14 spins on a real roulette?
For weeks I play at a real casino every day for hours. I never seen zero drop more then 2 times in 2 hours. At online roulette you see zero drop at least 4 times in 1 hour.
6 reds, a zero and then again 6 reds? At a real roulette i've seen it maby once a day. At online roulette 5 times an hour.
It does seem that something's fishy if you've seen a single number hit 7 times within 14 spins. That's nearly 11 standard deviations from the mean. :o
But it doesn't really mean much to say that you see a zero drop at least 4 times in an hour, because in an hour you probably get many more spins than you would playing for the same length of time in a B & M casino. You really need to give the number of spins in order to make a valid comparison. As I mentioned in a previous post, it's easy to make the mistake of thinking that "rare" events happen more often online, but this could be just your perception - not taking into account that you get a much higher turnover of spins.