Demo vs Real Money Mode—Are they the same?

[Nickmsi]

 My wife loves to play the slots, either at the Casino or on line.  When playing on line, she always seems to win in the “Demo” or Free Mode but not in the Real Money Mode. We figured out that the on line Casinos lure us into playing for Real Money by allowing us to win in the Demo mode.


But what about Roulette? Especially Bet Voyager No Zero (BVNZ)?  Do they also allow you to win in the Demo mode to entice you to play for Real Money as well?


I decided to check it out and a big thanks to Superman for assisting in testing the Real Money mode and to Bayes for posting 200M actual BVNZ spins.


For both the Demo  and Real Money Mode, I tested the same bet for 78 sessions of 1000 spins each (78,000 total spins).  The 78 sessions are shown in the attached spreadsheet.


If the Demo and Real Money Mode were the same, the results should be similar within a reasonable margin of error.  The overall results are:


Demo Mode

Units Won:-----7,570
Win %:-----------86%                       
Average Win:-----97                           

Real Money Mode
Units Won:-----1,276
Win%:------------53%
Average Win:-----16

You can draw your own conclusions, but I for one, will not be using any Casino's Demo mode for future testing.

[Proofreaders2000]

Great topic Nickmsi.  I've also found it true with "Live" dealer (where you see a person spinning the wheel or dealing cards) online games--that there is a significant difference between the fun play and the real money play.

[amk]

Nickmsi,

The Betvoyager Spins thread by Bayes either contains a typo created by accident some how or shows blatant proof of manipulation. These 212,000 BV spins have the number 4 repeat 20 times and should not be used for testing. Normy2000 made this incredible observation. I don't know which BV spins you used. It might also be wise for us to first see what the stats are of the spins we are going to use. It could be easy for a casino to put 1 or 2 impossible sequences in them so that any tests will not be accurate.

link:://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=919.0

I wouldn't put it past them........

[ADulay]

Great topic Nickmsi.  I've also found it true with "Live" dealer (where you see a person spinning the wheel or dealing cards) online games--that there is a significant difference between the fun play and the real money play.

Can you provide any data on this "live" dealer phenomena?

I understand the RNG problem and it has been reasonably well documented but on a "live" table, I'd still be suspect of data manipulation by the casino.

The basic question would be, HOW?

AD

[amk]

Hello ADulay,

If a casino releases live spins it is in a file format. Just add a 1 impossible sequence some where in the 50,000+ spins. Would be hard to find and is not illegal.

Sorry if this might seem a little overboard but interesting to discuss.

What is a fact is the number 4 repeated 20 time in the BV spin data. How it got there and how many times this has occurred in other spin data is the question.

[Bayes]

What is a fact is the number 4 repeated 20 time in the BV spin data. How it got there and how many times this has occurred in other spin data is the question.

Hi amk,

Funny you should mention this, because I was just about to post a plot of that data, showing the results if you had been betting the same as the last number. I always thought there was something fishy about those spins (I didn't get them myself but from another forum), because the result showed a significant edge, which shouldn't have been possible over such a large number of spins.

Actually, it's ambiguous what you're saying about the number 4 repeating - do you mean there were 20 separate occasions when it repeated once?, or a streak of 20 number 4's in a row?!

[Nickmsi]

Yes, AMK, you are correct if the spin data is corrupted then my testing is null and void.

Bayes, I checked the spin data and there is a run of 20 consecutive 4's, it's about midway through the data, page 1682 if you used word or notepad to load it.

[Bayes]

Yes, I see now. 

Sorry you wasted your time using invalid spins.

[maestro]

ok here it is...say we have 3 sets of 100 random roulette spins then we get every set of 100 spins and divide it in smaller sets of 10 numbers,then we mix them up and build up new 3 sets of 100 numbers. where does not matter which set of 10 belongs to what set of 100 numbers..so having our new 3sets of 100 numbers question is...are new 3 sets of 100 numbers also random roulette samples??? thank you
p.s i did asked it but wanted to ask again sorry just my old brain

[Bayes]

@ Nickmsi,

I can get you some real mode spins from BV if you want to do another test. These will be uncorrupted. 

Actually, you can thank superman and his bot. 

[Bayes]

ok here it is...say we have 3 sets of 100 random roulette spins then we get every set of 100 spins and divide it in smaller sets of 10 numbers,then we mix them up and build up new 3 sets of 100 numbers. where does not matter which set of 10 belongs to what set of 100 numbers..so having our new 3sets of 100 numbers question is...are new 3 sets of 100 numbers also random roulette samples??? thank you
p.s i did asked it but wanted to ask again sorry just my old brain

I would say YES, as long as the numbers are selected randomly and thoroughly "shuffled".

[Nickmsi]

Yes, Bayes, would love some actual BVNZ spins from Superman.  He can email them direct to me or post them.  Thanks.   Nick

[superman]

ok guys, Bayes already has a load, he can put them up here if he wants, I will do a few 1000 spin sessions tomorrow in real money mode and put them up here.

EDIT: on some of them ignore the last 3 or 4 spins, you will see a few repeats, not sure how or why it happened, just check the ends of each file before using them. The ones I do tomorrow will not have that issue.

[superman]

OK heres the 1st 1001 run, image shows what happened and how often, Real Money mode

[ADulay]

Hello ADulay,

If a casino releases live spins it is in a file format. Just add a 1 impossible sequence some where in the 50,000+ spins. Would be hard to find and is not illegal.

No, I was talking about real time "live" play and not transcribed live play.

Proofreader says that the "live" play can be altered and I was asking if there was any documentation on how they do it.  At the two online casinos I use, "Live" play is used for both practice and real money play at the same time.   How would the "live" play be skewed then and for what reason?

Anything that gets transcribed or can be edited will always be suspect, of course.

Thanks.

AD