Hello! Airball machine

[AlleyCat316]

Perhaps I mistated, if I did I apologize. The craps table here is also an Interblock G4, with a bubble in a middle doing dice rolls. No one gets to roll their own dice. Kind of a buzz kill I know. I haven't tried it since I didn't easily see a place to do odds on a pass/don't pass bet.

[ADulay]

Why doesn't the casino have a notice somewhere on the game advising players the game is an EGM & therefore the results are not true random but manipulated ?

Please supply a piece of documentation for that statement.   AirBall is manipulated?

AD

[ausguy]

AD - I can't supply documentation to prove that Interblock spin results are manipulated. I can only relate to my experiences when playing on Interblock.

I'm particularly addressing the Interblock model as that's all Alleycat has access to.

I can reverse your question and ask you - can you prove that interblock or any other airball/auto wheel is not manipulated ?
Apart from being wealthy enough to buy an Interblock unit or having insider access to one we can never really know.

Do you think auto wheels are true random spun devices, little different to dealer spun wheels ?  What do you think about their classification as EGMs = Electronic Gaming Machines ?  In the same group as slots/poker machines & RNG games. EGMs have preset player returns & guaranteed earning % for the gaming venue.
This is well documented, especially for slots/poker machines.  Also you may remember the forum posts of a few years ago titled " DOCUMENTED PROOF OF CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE" ? 

Have you seen or played the Interblock wheel ? Don't dismiss too quickly what I've already previously said about the Interblock construction & the way the spins operate. eg Why do they need to have a ball timing sensor above the ball track ?

Allycat has already mentioned that the Interblock site is very thin on detail regarding how its games operate.

Wheel maker Cammergh is a lot more forthcoming. Check out their site at Cammergh.com. In particular their Mercury 360 RSS model. RSS stands for RANDOM ROTOR SPEED. The site details how it all operates, even the air jet holes in the ball track, so well worth a read. They even have some video demos.

If one maker has it surely all the others would have it in some form or other also, including Interblock ?

[iggiv]

About craps or dice. I think it is one of the really big  potential games for wins apart from roulette. That's the only game in casino where you can have physical influence  of your own. That can be a big thing for someone with skillful hands.

[ADulay]

AD - I can't supply documentation to prove that Interblock spin results are manipulated. I can only relate to my experiences when playing on Interblock.

So according to YOU, the whole thing is rigged from the start.  Not a good enough argument.

I can reverse your question and ask you - can you prove that interblock or any other airball/auto wheel is not manipulated ?
Apart from being wealthy enough to buy an Interblock unit or having insider access to one we can never really know.

You can "reverse" the question, but it's not a valid one.   If it were manipulated, it would not be legal in our state.  (I've seen and played the same machine at the Indian casinos).

Do you think auto wheels are true random spun devices, little different to dealer spun wheels ?

Yes I do.

What do you think about their classification as EGMs = Electronic Gaming Machines ?  In the same group as slots/poker machines & RNG games.

I would think they would classified that way due to the nature of the wagering for the player and the methods of payment both in and out of the machine.

EGMs have preset player returns & guaranteed earning % for the gaming venue.

Not true.  You confuse preset player returns with aggregate casino returns.

Also you may remember the forum posts of a few years ago titled " DOCUMENTED PROOF OF CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE" ?

Yes, I remember it well.  I still have a link to that site and have printed out their documentation where they state that the game is rigged and how you WILL make a profit.   This is not the same thing by any means at all!!

Have you seen or played the Interblock wheel ?

Of course I have otherwise I wouldn't be in this discussion.  I've played them in the Dakotas at some very nice casinos and also down here in Florida in at least two of the Seminole Indian casinos.

Don't dismiss too quickly what I've already previously said about the Interblock construction & the way the spins operate. e.g. Why do they need to have a ball timing sensor above the ball track ?

Why would they want to time the spin?  How about for consistency and to make sure the wheel spins at least a certain number of revolutions about the wheel.  If you were running an automated wheel, wouldn't you like to know INSTANTLY that the ball is not making more than two spins before dropping in!!   How about if the ball ALWAYS spins exactly 14 times before dropping in.  I think I would want my automated machine to never duplicate a spin, exactly, time after time.   

Wheel maker Cammergh is a lot more forthcoming. Check out their site at Cammergh.com. In particular their Mercury 360 RSS model. RSS stands for RANDOM ROTOR SPEED. The site details how it all operates, even the air jet holes in the ball track, so well worth a read. They even have some video demos.

Yep, I've chased down pretty much all of the available information on AirBall.  I convinced it is a legitimate wheel, worthy of live play with real money.

For some reason you appear to think that having the ability to "monitor" what the machine is doing is somehow related to cheating or a rigged roulette wheel.   I tend to see it as a way to validate the legitimate operation of the wheel, literally on a spin by spin basis.   I don't doubt that the machines probably have an "auto-lockout" function that will stop all wagers should the wheel "monitoring" service see a something that is out of the documented specifications.

Like I mentioned earlier.  If the wheel is only making two revolutions and the ball is dropping after one, I would tend to think the machine is now "out of tolerance" and being monitored, would be shut down in quick order.  That's why you monitor the ball speed, revolution count/speed and probably a few other things.  I have no doubt that temperature is probably monitored as well as ambient light.   It would be if it was my machine.

Thanks for bringing up this discussion.

AD

[Turner]

Perhaps I mistated, if I did I apologize. The craps table here is also an Interblock G4, with a bubble in a middle doing dice rolls. No one gets to roll their own dice. Kind of a buzz kill I know. I haven't tried it since I didn't easily see a place to do odds on a pass/don't pass bet.

Then don't play it. If you are a Don't player like myself, after the point is made, any good dice controllers are not throwing for 7.
Generally, Don't betters refuse the dice. it makes less sense if no one is throwing the dice.

[mattymattz]

Turner, all this dice talk is making me nostalgic. I'll be at the fitzwilliam casino tomorrow (im in dublin now) so maybe they'll have a craps table. Watch for a roulette player with a red Canada sweater online tomorrow :-)

Matt

[Turner]

Turner, all this dice talk is making me nostalgic. I'll be at the fitzwilliam casino tomorrow (I'm in dublin now) so maybe they'll have a craps table. Watch for a roulette player with a red Canada sweater online tomorrow :-)

Matt

Oh....Dublinbet?...LoL...I will.

Don't forget ...right betting is for women in mini skirts and high heels...

[iggiv]

and left betting is for men in shorts and t-shirts

[AlleyCat316]

briefly,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for their contributations to my post! I expected a couple, but everyone has really given me a lot to think about. I went to the Hard Rock last night, and played on the airball. it ate up 100 units real fast, luckily I got em all back on a hand of blackjack!

Everyone though had some great input on both sides, and I'd say for my first post to the forum, over twenty replies, and a couple hundred reads isn't too shabby!

Thanks, again.

AlleyCat 

[ADulay]

briefly,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for their contributations to my post! I expected a couple, but everyone has really given me a lot to think about. I went to the Hard Rock last night, and played on the airball. it ate up 100 units real fast, luckily I got em all back on a hand of blackjack!
AlleyCat

AlleyCat,

  Can you post up the results of your airball play?  A tracking card or some kind of sheet with the results that you played?

  It would be interesting to see where the $100 went.

  AD

[Turner]

and left betting is for men in shorts and t-shirts

lol...bit cold here for that...even for wrong bettors.

[Turner]

briefly,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for their contributations to my post! I expected a couple, but everyone has really given me a lot to think about. I went to the Hard Rock last night, and played on the airball. it ate up 100 units real fast, luckily I got em all back on a hand of blackjack!

Everyone though had some great input on both sides, and I'd say for my first post to the forum, over twenty replies, and a couple hundred reads isn't too shabby!

Thanks, again.

AlleyCat 

Just out of interest, how many decks is the Blackjack? Is it a shuffle machine or shoes? If its shoes, there may be an opportunity to card count..

If theres airball and auto-craps...it has to be CSM.

[ausguy]

So Alleycat loses 100 units on the Interblock EGM machine.  The ball spins eventually leaving the ball track dropping into a deep pocket aided by the channelling gap between 2 of the 18 oversize DIAMONDS masquerading as ball deflectors.
More often than not the drop misses Alleycats bets.        His eventual final score - Casino 100 units  Alleycat nil.

He wisely quit his play & tried his luck at another game. As he said he luckily won his losses back on blackjack. I assume he left the casino breaking even ?

ADulay how have you fared with all your Interblock plays over time ?  In total in the red or in the black ?

Anybody else ahead with their Interblock play?

[AlleyCat316]

I haven't learned how to quote people's previous quotes in the forum yet.

@Adulay: I didn't record the results, but will definitely do that in the future to post for those interested.

@Turner - Six decks. They have tables that play both Autoshuffler and Shoes, so counting is definitely a possibility in the casino. I played at a deck with the shoes.  Awful lucky to get a hot table, scoring me blackjack twice consecutively. Airball and Autocraps I believe are actually due to restrictions from having gaming wheels or tables in the Florida constitution. In fact, the only reason they have card table games, is because the state was in deficit two years ago, and struck a deal with the Casino to grant a license for table games in exchange for a 1.2 billion, that's right - billion, dollar loan.

@Ausguy - Yeah, I figured 100 units was enough for it to eat in a single session. Last time I was there though, it gave me 200, and 480 the time before that - so I can't be angry. It definitely wasn't doing well for me though yesterday. I even waited at some points till AFTER the ball released to bet. And yes, I did leave after breaking even. I'd like to maintain my edge on the casino for as long as possible!