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Steve

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 06:26 AM 2018
when you will load back my old user account wih stupid amount of spins

Your account was clearly in the red. Are you sure you want it back?

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Joe

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 08:17 AM 2018
Because it appears nobody can beat rng except in cases where flawed prng is used. Even using prng makes more sense than trng, because theres a chance of an edge. But still prng is not roulette. Its a slot machine. So if we want to simulate roulette, doesnt using real spins database make more sense?

I think we've had this conversation before, but RNG, whether TRNG or PRNG is not a slot machine, it's a simulation of roulette. Nobody can tell the difference between real spins and RNG over the length of a typical session (and I would say that nobody can tell the difference over any number of spins as long as they're less than the RNG cycle, but that's irrelevant here). But more to the point, if you're using a file of spins there's always a chance that they could be compromised, or copied. If you or one of the programmers was in a playful mood they could register and clean up ;-). Or if a scammer got hold of them they could then "prove" that their system worked by demonstrating it on MPR.

To avoid this, as well as the hassle of using files, not to mention extra work for the programmer (with the attendant higher chance of introducing bugs), why not use the programming language's internal RNG? That way there would be no chance of spins being copied or known by anyone prior to a game, and it would make life easier for everyone. If you want a better quality RNG than the default used by the language you can import the code for one. The mersenne twister is a good one, and it may well be the default RNG used in javascript anyway.

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Steve

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 08:44 AM 2018
RNG, whether TRNG or PRNG is not a slot machine

Slot machines use prng. Prng roulette is indeed a slot machine, just with roulette animations. The only other difference is odds and payouts. But different slots can have different odds and payouts and stil be slot machines.

 What matters is the mechanism that determines game outcomes, and the opportunities to exploit it. Trng, prng, real wheels, cards, lotto balls or whatever.... its all odds vs payout.

AP is simply exploiting the mechanism that determines game outcomes. To call that nonsense, as some people do, is just plain dumb.

Nobody can tell the difference between real spins and RNG over the length of a typical session (and I would say that nobody can tell the difference over any number of spins as long as they're less than the RNG cycle, but that's irrelevant here).

Not true. The truth requires a lot of explanation. But basically rng and real spins have some major differences that can easily be noticed. The differences depend on the physics of the wheel being compared. If you're looking only at say 30 winning numbers and nothing else, then as with any short term data, the less likely you are to know the difference. But in normal circumstances with perhaps hundreds of spins, it is not difficult to know the difference, even from numbers alone. But there are requirements like the wheel being suitable, the conditions remaining within certain parameters etc. But then add some small details like diamond hits, and the difference is obvious. Add a few more details and the difference is exponentially clearer. To explain the full story is pages. But basically rng is very different to real spins, and it's not hard to demonstrate.

But more to the point, if you're using a file of spins there's always a chance that they could be compromised, or copied. If you or one of the programmers was in a playful mood they could register and clean up ;-). Or if a scammer got hold of them they could then "prove" that their system worked by demonstrating it on MPR.

Possible but unlikely. But i wasnt born yesterday and am confident if someone cheated, eventually the truth would come out.

To avoid this, as well as the hassle of using files, not to mention extra work for the programmer (with the attendant higher chance of introducing bugs), why not use the programming language's internal RNG?

Because it's flawed and predictable. A high quality rng is random.org, but as i explained before the ideal source is real spins, the only real roulette.

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Joe

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 08:58 AM 2018
Because it's flawed and predictable. A high quality rng is random.org, but as i explained before the ideal source is real spins, the only real roulette.

In what way are PRNG's flawed and predictable? if that was true online casinos could be exploited easily.

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Joe

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 09:01 AM 2018
Not true. The truth requires a lot of explanation. But basically rng and real spins have some major differences that can easily be noticed.

I disagree, but how is this relevant to MPR when there is no wheel?

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the ideal source is real spins, the only real roulette.

Again I disagree, but MPR is software. What possible use could using real spins be when you can't measure or track any physical variables?


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Steve

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 09:52 AM 2018
I disagree, but how is this relevant to MPR when there is no wheel?

Because we're talking about the difference between mpr using real wheel or rng spins.

Again I disagree, but MPR is software. What possible use could using real spins be when you can't measure or track any physical variables?

Because in some capacity, with spins alone (no extra data) its still possible to know and exploit the difference. As i said previously, if i were trying to win on mpr with real spins database, id use an approach related to dealer signature. Its not proper AP, but far better than repeaters etc.

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maestro

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 11:14 AM 2018
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Your account was clearly in the red. Are you sure you want it back?

dont care just upload my last account it had 250000 something...

and yes i want it back bored with <resetme> and <do resetme> accounts

thanK you
Law of the sixth...<when you play roulette there will always be a moron tells you that you will lose to the house edge>

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Joe

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 11:20 AM 2018
Because in some capacity, with spins alone (no extra data) its still possible to know and exploit the difference. As i said previously, if i were trying to win on mpr with real spins database, id use an approach related to dealer signature. Its not proper AP, but far better than repeaters etc.

I can't see how you could exploit dealer signature without at least knowing such things as which direction the dealer is spinning, how fast the wheel's turning, etc, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

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The General

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 04:34 PM 2018
If live spins were loaded into the MPR another way to reduce the edge is to exploit the human element.  The fact that people collect the data and enter it before relaying it to Steve opens the door for duplicate data strings and repeating strings within the data.  Removing dupes in large quantities of data requires some rather sophisticated software to keep the number streams clean.   It's important to run such software to keep data pure.  If the software isn't used, then chances are there is a very slight reduction in the house edge to be had by betting the repeats and repeating strings.
Basic probability and The General are your friend.
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Steve

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Re: MPR
Sep 16, 07:52 PM 2018
I can't see how you could exploit dealer signature without at least knowing such things as which direction the dealer is spinning, how fast the wheel's turning, etc, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just looking at distance between pockets gives some information, and often enough for an edge. You can also assume rotor direction is either the same or alternates between spins, at least for the next few spins - same for assuming its the same dealer for the next few spins at least. There's also the potential of bias, which can appear as a slight data anomaly. Then if you cross reference it with anomalies related to dealer signature, the two pattern types can back each other up, which can be used to tell a player when a pattern is more likely to be legitimate, rather than coincidence. There's more, at least to reduce the house edge, and sometimes to give a player edge. But again proper AP needs more. There are certainly cases where the spin data is enough though.

Would I spend time on trying to get an edge in these circumstances, if this was a real-play situation? No. It would be a struggle, especially considering better conditions and options.

If live spins were loaded into the MPR another way to reduce the edge is to exploit the human element.  The fact that people collect the data and enter it before relaying it to Steve opens the door for duplicate data strings and repeating strings within the data.  Removing dupes in large quantities of data requires some rather sophisticated software to keep the number streams clean.   It's important to run such software to keep data pure.  If the software isn't used, then chances are there is a very slight reduction in the house edge to be had by betting the repeats and repeating strings.

Yes it's one possible way to attach the mechanism that determines winning number, also known as AP. To reduce the possibility of these flaws, I source spins only from credible players and spin profiles that match specific requirements. It doesn't guarantee no issues, but they're very unlikely. If I ever used real spins again, I could easily create a simple program to check for repeat sequences over say 10 numbers. It could be more thorough, but a such a process would weed out almost all repeated data, if there were any.

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maestro

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Re: MPR
Sep 17, 03:42 PM 2018
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I could easily create a simple program to check for repeat sequences over say 10 numbers

you do not have to ...just do not use same toilet shitty paper to join spins..and now do not go and say <but random is random> because you have no idea


put my user name back to MPR
Law of the sixth...<when you play roulette there will always be a moron tells you that you will lose to the house edge>

Moxy

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Re: MPR
Sep 17, 05:10 PM 2018
Steve, I'm going to walk away from MPR till your programmer sorts out the bugs.  I'm too frustrated; I can only paper test for now.  I'm still up 3-5 pct (?) over the house edge BUT that is below and beyond it's capability.  Way, way below.

That just opens up tiny seeds of doubt about the program as I've been screwed over by dynamically reactive, cheating online casino algorithms and even WizardofOdds.


Moxy

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Re: MPR
Sep 17, 05:19 PM 2018
But I only played less then 200 spins so it shouldn't mean much yet.

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Steve

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Re: MPR
Sep 17, 11:43 PM 2018
Moxy, you said:

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Steve, MPR is going bonkers - duplicate numbers

Previously when people claimed there were duplicate numbers, I checked what they claimed were duplicate numbers (as in a mistake/bug), and it turned out the spins appeared exactly as they should. There is no such known bug. The spins are just whatever they are.

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so I've been only paper testing and nothing else.

What's the point in that if you're intending to demonstrate that your system is what you claim? That was the point of you playing on MPR.

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freezing, and then giving multiple results at once

Freezes are temporary and the result of synchronization between you and the server. They happen with real online casinos too, because sometimes the internet becomes congested. It is unavoidable, but does not affect your ability to win or lose in the long-term.

People have previously complained that they would be making a killing if it weren't for the rare freeze or delay. If your system works, missing spins only reduces the amount of spins you play. Sometimes you'll avoid a win, sometimes you'll avoid a loss. Real online casinos get the same accusations because they have the same limitations as network congestion. It's like a losing player in a casino accusing the casino of using magnets, or the dealer deliberately spinning against them. The truth is simpler- the system doesn't work.

There are two known bugs:

Bug 1: Causes the games to give two numbers in quick succession (probably has has something to do with the ready button, and timing of users leaving the game)

Bug 2: Sometimes players aren't logged off correctly, and it takes some time for the server to dump the cache and log them off. Or a mod can boot them manually.

Both bugs are rare enough to not be a serious problem - certainly not serious enough to claim the game is "going bonkers" to the point where you cant continue play.

I've tested the game extensively to get an idea of the extent of issues like connection lag, and the bugs above. I have not found they are anywhere near "serious". Furthermore, you can see others have played thousands of spins and they aren't complaining.

Perhaps not unexpectedly, players who don't do well on MPR make excuses. I'm not trying to be abrasive. Just putting together the fact that the game is nowhere near "going bonkers", and players who don't do well complain about things that aren't anywhere near a serious problem.

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I also lost my password for the primary acct cause I inadvertently changed it by typing in another password with the aid of Lastpass chrome extension because I got locked out by your program/server trying to get back in, another malfunction of MPR. 

The game doesn't refuse login unless a mod blocks you, you are trying to enter the wrong password, or you are attempting to log on while still logged on from another window (in which case close it and refresh one page), or you werent logged off for some reason in which case you'll appear as logged on to other players (which you arent). So all that's left is you arent using the correct password. Let me know the account name and I'll send it to you.

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Can you get my acct back.  I don't want you to think I am switching accts after my lackluster start.   Just a tad frustrating, if MPR won't cooperate with you even though it always had a bug sometime or another.

As above. MPR is not the problem. The only known bugs are minor. I cant help you remember passwords (besides digging them up again), or fix internet congestion.

I havent been paying attention, but if you've had a "lackluster start" as you said, perhaps it's because whatever you used to test your system previously was not a realistic simulation, where MPR is. Turbo found that, which is why he left and came up with various excuses to play elsewhere.

If there are bugs, they'll be fixed. But again there's no critical bug or issue that would make play significantly different if there were no issues even in a million spins.

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And pertaining to the above.  This is the perfect time for you to transition from computers and I'm only a few years younger than you and we're both relatively young.  I really don't see the reason why I'm being kind of ignored when I've been the one you've been searching for quite a long time a la your earlier posts about transitioning from computers to precognition, etc.  On top of all this, it's tangible.

I'm open to the possibility. But understand my point of view too. Very often someone claims to me they have the HG. Naturally i'm skeptical. And when it comes time to prove it to me, the results don't match their claims.

I'm not "ignoring" you. Really I haven't even looked at the results yet. I intended to after some time, on your instruction.

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Steve

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Re: MPR
Sep 17, 11:56 PM 2018
just do not use same toilet shitty paper to join spins

Turbo used that excuse too. Even with random.org spins, your results don't match your mouth.

and now do not go and say <but random is random> because you have no idea

Say we have two joined sets of spins. With group 1, you get 1 in 37 accuracy. With group 2, you get 1 in 37 accuracy. Your win rate is still sub-par. So you borrow Turbo's excuse and blame the spins.

The same excuse implies spins are connected, when they aren't, especially with RNG. Turbo is he wins because RNG is random. So when we increase "randomness", shouldn't that be better? Apparently not. Apparently, it makes you and Turbo lose. Come on guys. Stop blaming everything else for losses.

When the spins were real sessions joined, each session had 300+ spins. The chances are you played the same wheel each time you played. But still your results are what they are, and you fish for excuses.

put my user name back to MPR

Do you want the same stats? I think it would be best if you start again, with purely random.org spins or you'll just make an excuse attacking the game, rather than considering the viability of your system.

 

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