question for Turbo

[Steve]

There is a leaderboard at Parx, the top 100 players for the week who are actually in profit - you don't see the tons of people who aren't in profit and therefore not on the list at all.

You still dont understand the math of Parx. When the casino gives you lots of free money, and you win with that, you easily overcome the house edge. If all players played very often, eventually they'd lose the bonus money too. But players who play a lot but not too much have a strong advantage over the house and other players. So for sure if you looked at amount wagered, amount of spins played, and amount won, you'd see the optimum player edge correlate to amount wagered, amount of spins played, and amount won. And it will be heavily biased towards players with the optimum variables.

The player edge would be very strong positive for players with optimum variables, and a bit better than -2.7% edge for players that simply played too much and lost all their bankroll INCLUDING the bonuses. Looking at the players all the way at the end of the leaderboard is not how to assess it properly. You need to consider all wagers from all players. If you do that with MPR, you find the results are as expected with the house edge.

So when they total up the weeks play from everyone, I'm sure it comes out to the house edge like it should.

When every player gets paid extra just for logging in and plays with the casino's money, and some players win huge play money prizes, how could it possibly be the expected house edge? You will have some players very close to it, some very far from it, but the average will definitely be a weaker house edge. The player with a strong positive edge are the ones who played lots, but not too much.

[Steve]

Turbo, regarding RS, here are the top 41 and bottom 41 compared. See the total profit and loss. I had to estimate the private totals based on the visible values surrounding a private value. Notice the winners have a higher amount by around 8%:



It is a snapshot of what's happening, and it indicates players have a strong edge. Do the same with MPR and you'll find the player edge is more like -2.7%. The RS data isn't complete and only the admin would know all data.

But what does it tell you?

[Steve]

no i do not....because of average for year

Maestro, how are comps proof of winning? They are more like proof of losing because if you were constantly winning online, your account would be terminated.

exactly...soon will be 120 blacks in only 60 spins...no problem

If you could actually predict the spin outcomes, you would be winning on MPR. But after something like 300,000 spins you are clearly losing.

Again, Parx is clearly rigged. I explained the math. Now the data I published indicates RS is rigged too. Someone should check all 60 or so pages of data if they have time, but the snapshot of data shows players have about a +8% edge. But at MPR, where a database of real spins are used, all important stats are transparent.... and everyone can see the overall player edge is -2.7%.

So Maestro, Turbo and whoever else, if you are losing at MPR, it's expected.  MPR is designed as a proper simulation with even ground for everyone. It is not designed just for entertainment.

[maestro]

Maestro, how are comps proof of winning?

well i thought you had a bit of brain....comps came up in snipping tool as i cut the screen

and yes this is what i deposit on average and take out on average....and about closing my account ...yes they can do that there is always way to play


<oh and next time before you make wrong assumtions move few brain cells and only then do the action> you know cause and effect

[Steve]

Ok maestro so your avg ins and outs total £1000, per year. Are you playing with me?

Are you betting £0.10 units or something? Because even at £1 units your results arent anywhere near statistically relevant. Your loss over 300,000 spins on mpr are. Is that why you dont like mpr?

A few random bets per year is all your screenshot could show. You arent winning anything significant or your account wouldnt even last years. Really, carefully consider what you call proof.

[Tinsoldiers]

But what does it tell you?

Honestly what’s happening here. That’s the woRst calculation of house edge I have seen.  People do reset games, people do use it for multiple reasons. The ones who lose more tend to reset most and people who win will tend to leave it in the table. That ranking doesn’t mean anything. Steve if you really want to disprove something then play there and post your 300k plus.

Both roulette simulator and MPR serve different purpose. Roulette simulator is a good simulator if you want to test systems. It is more like Rx with a flexibility to record sessions and a ranking table. Ranking algorithm is very straight forward. MPR is a multi player chat with archived roulette spins. It is not quick like RS and simulates casino environment.  There is no way you can reset your history.

I wouldn’t waste my time getting to leaderboard in either of them. But yes, some fanatics do. 

[maestro]

Is that why you dont like mpr?

i like mpr i have done lots of spins..so you know

and casino play never mind that i deal with that

[Taotie]

Turbo, regarding RS, here are the top 41 and bottom 41 compared. See the total profit and loss. I had to estimate the private totals based on the visible values surrounding a private value. Notice the winners have a higher amount by around 8%:



It is a snapshot of what's happening, and it indicates players have a strong edge. Do the same with MPR and you'll find the player edge is more like -2.7%. The RS data isn't complete and only the admin would know all data.

But what does it tell you?

I don't have all the answers but if I had to give one reason why players can do better on RS, it's simply because they can use as long as they need or like to figure out their next bet. With MPR you have 30 seconds tops, and more often than is reasonable the game fires off numbers well short of 30 seconds, and that mostly happens when bets are becoming more complex, or when deep in progression.

I for one can't comfortably play the game I would like to play on MPR because of the disruption and cost of the frequent glitches that come from streaming numbers in real time. The game does freeze every so often, and again it's often when deep in a triggered progression. The only way to move forward is to refresh the page, which gets it going again, but purges the current bet. Then one has to factor in a missed spin and depending on the result, decide whether to continue or cop the loss and start a fresh session. It can be expensive and hurts the hard earned bankroll.

Also IMO the layout is too small for players to mouse click their way through a shit load of bet placements with only 30 seconds, and there is always the hovering fear that the game will shoot off a number well short of 30 seconds and stuff up your mojo.

I must say the double up button has helped.

Oh, and RS position 7 is wrong. My total is currently 232075 with only 60 games played.

[Steve]

For mpr we had a vote and agreed on the time between spins. I cant please everyone.

I havent experienced freezes. Only slight lags that you get with any live online casino.

Also you can change the interface size like any other web page. Try hold CTRL and use mouse wheel to zoom in/out.

Anyway this discussion isnt supppsed to be so much about games. More like which is a better place for competitive and realistic testing. Rx is best for testing "systems" but not in a competitive environment. Mpr is the better option for that, but it has some downsides which are a necessity.

[nottophammer]

I don't have all the answers but if I had to give one reason why players can do better on RS, it's simply because they can use as long as they need or like to figure out their next bet. With MPR you have 30 seconds tops, and more often than is reasonable the game fires off numbers well short of 30 seconds, and that mostly happens when bets are becoming more complex, or when deep in progression.

I for one can't comfortably play the game I would like to play on MPR because of the disruption and cost of the frequent glitches that come from streaming numbers in real time. The game does freeze every so often, and again it's often when deep in a triggered progression. The only way to move forward is to refresh the page, which gets it going again, but purges the current bet. Then one has to factor in a missed spin and depending on the result, decide whether to continue or cop the loss and start a fresh session. It can be expensive and hurts the hard earned bankroll.

100% agree
But you can set 30sec at RS so be like MPR. Yes when freeze/ crash better its mucked your game and like Mr T says do you carry on.
Why this need for speed, when i'm at B+M which is not often, spins take a minute or more, so 30 sec is bollox, even at shit hole Aspers MK its 40/45 sec on slow part of day as the croupier spins to the green light. i suppose the plasterers will accept green light go at 30 second soon if not already done, but when at busy part of day back to realistic spin time

[TurboGenius]

When every player gets paid extra just for logging in and plays with the casino's money, and some players win huge play money prizes, how could it possibly be the expected house edge?

Because, as I said before - the leaderboard rankings are only based on profit from play.
It does not include any credits given to you for any other reason.
I get 3k per day for log-in bonus.
So in a week I would have a 21k bankroll - guess what - I won't be on the leaderboard with 21k, I won't be on it at all.
I take 3k to the casino every time I go (example). If I don't WIN, then I don't make any profit.
It's no difference at all.
I do understand your points - but they don't apply here.
If I "gave" you a million dollars and someone else 1,000.00 and you both go
into the casino. You "could" walk out with 40,000 profit while the other player
might walk out with 500.00 profit. So you would rank #1 and to you that isn't fair.
But EVERYONE gets the same amount for a bonus - everyone.
So it's a level playing field between everyone.
Now If I had 4 million and others are broke - the only reason for that is because
I played for months and made profits, growing my bankroll and climbing the
board - which in reality is what any player should be doing.
I had no advantage over anyone else - we get the same amount but my bankroll
is so much higher because of my play, not because of something being unfair
or rigged.

[TurboGenius]

Like I said, nobody but the admin sees bet data, in any case. with MPR, everyone's bets are set to “private”. There is no public setting. Roulettesimulator records a video for the admin.... and that's more private for you than MPR log file showing bets and payouts?
Could you please explain the contradictions?

There's no contradiction here.
I am comfortable with R-Sim and Parx knowing how I play. They could probably care less how or what I'm doing. My play logs are secured enough, I seriously doubt they would ever appear on a forum somewhere.
In the casino - everything is also recorded (from above usually). Surely they could reverse engineer from video what I'm doing, but in that case I also make other bets and I assume that would throw them off enough. Even AP players lose on purpose to not expose what they are doing. I also don't win nearly enough to raise any eyebrows.
But on the internet where I've posted for (how long ??) on multiple forums - why would I give one person complete access to what I'm doing exactly ?
What level of trust is involved regardless of how many times someone might say "I wouldn't spend the time reverse engineering your play log" or "I'm the only one with access to it, surely I wouldn't reveal it anywhere". Sorry, I trust no one to that level.
If I play there and take first, stay there for as long as I want and build a massive bankroll - you're not going to look at my bets and spins to see how it was done ? You would actually have to do that to ensure I wasn't cheating.
You're not going to mention a word to anyone - never going to take that info and use it ?
Like I said, I don't trust anyone at that level to allow that to happen when I have the option to play somewhere else. I would still play there for fun though, of course.
But I'll be in the pool of winners and losers like everyone else - and what will that cause ?
"Turbo has been playing on my game for months and isn't doing better than anyone else".

[TurboGenius]

At Simulator site -

Players #1-#252 are on the leaderboard in profit
Players #253-#260 are even and
Players #261-622 are in the negative.
That is completely in line with expected.
Anyone remember "38 people go into a casino" thread ?
1/3 win.... a small amount are "break even".... and 2/3 are negative and that
is simply flat betting a single number over and over and over.
So I'm in 4th of 622 - therefore "rigged".
I understand.

[jekhb76]

There's no contradiction here.
I am comfortable with R-Sim and Parx knowing how I play. They could probably care less how or what I'm doing. My play logs are secured enough, I seriously doubt they would ever appear on a forum somewhere.
In the casino - everything is also recorded (from above usually). Surely they could reverse engineer from video what I'm doing, but in that case I also make other bets and I assume that would throw them off enough. Even AP players lose on purpose to not expose what they are doing. I also don't win nearly enough to raise any eyebrows.
But on the internet where I've posted for (how long ??) on multiple forums - why would I give one person complete access to what I'm doing exactly ?
What level of trust is involved regardless of how many times someone might say "I wouldn't spend the time reverse engineering your play log" or "I'm the only one with access to it, surely I wouldn't reveal it anywhere". Sorry, I trust no one to that level.
If I play there and take first, stay there for as long as I want and build a massive bankroll - you're not going to look at my bets and spins to see how it was done ? You would actually have to do that to ensure I wasn't cheating.
You're not going to mention a word to anyone - never going to take that info and use it ?
Like I said, I don't trust anyone at that level to allow that to happen when I have the option to play somewhere else. I would still play there for fun though, of course.
But I'll be in the pool of winners and losers like everyone else - and what will that cause ?
"Turbo has been playing on my game for months and isn't doing better than anyone else".

Everyday when i Wake up and start reading again, i Always Have the feeling that i'm as dumb as a Monkey, well they are even smarter!
After All these years, following every thread and post you Have posted in Different forums, i'm still way in the dark and i guess i Will Always be regarding your System. But everytime you say that when we know what you are doin' regarding repeaters, we will All say, No way, is that how it is done, that simple? I honestly don't know what we are all doin', because there are many very Smart People here on this Forum and yet No one can figure out how you play repeaters and they you Will profit everytime from it. I Just can't get it out of my head. If it were that simple, why didn't someone figured it out by now. The Quest Goes on....

[jekhb76]

At Simulator site -

Players #1-#252 are on the leaderboard in profit
Players #253-#260 are even and
Players #261-622 are in the negative.
That is completely in line with expected.
Anyone remember "38 people go into a casino" thread ?
1/3 win.... a small amount are "break even".... and 2/3 are negative and that
is simply flat betting a single number over and over and over.
So I'm in 4th of 622 - therefore "rigged".
I understand.

Not rigged, only a Genius at work!